Halls Hopper
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Unarmed Combat suggestion
And going hand to hand combat, wearing shield makes no sense. NO SENSE AT ALL~
*this is main reason, actually*
Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.
Halls Hopper
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epsilon wrote:And going hand to hand combat, wearing shield makes no sense. NO SENSE AT ALL~
*this is main reason, actually*
Halls Hopper
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reaver wrote:Game Mechanics are always more important than flavor. Removing the choice of using a shield isn't worth the incredibly small gain in immersion from this proposal.
Also, other weapon users get off hand punches too, so it would affect balance for all other melee users.
I also don't know why you think ignoring shields is "not an option" for Unarmed characters. I'm not a great player, but I'm pretty sure Transmuters basically never want them, and I've never seen a suggestion to use one on a Ghoul.
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epsilon wrote:Imagine a boxer. A swift and powerful person, that learned through sweat and blood how to move, how to put weight in attacks, how to open-up opponents, how to block and evade attacks. And now imagine him with a freaking tower shield. Why do I even have to explain it?
Fighting armed and unarmed is two absolutely different things. Even most simple attacks have nothing common. When you use weapon, most power comes from using lever, allowing to simplify move, but for fists, power comes from rotating torso, legs and arm limbs. If one of your arms overweighted with something, you'll be physically unable to do correct attack.
And how do you do "one-two" with a shield? It's damn basics.
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epsilon wrote:I didn't suggest to forbid shields on UC characters nor did I suggest to add any penalty to them. So UC + shield character won't change at all. At the same time, UC characters without shield will gain something except flavour.
epsilon wrote:And Transmuters never want them cause shields tend to melt at transmutations (and I still had read suggestions about "UC favored specie with good aptitudes at UC, Transmutations and Shields"). About UC ghouls without shields. Well, trading SH for ~15% auxiliary attack, that hit little bit over 33% damage of normal attack. Seems viable.
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TwilightPhoenix wrote:Imagine a boxer. A swift and powerful person that, through sweat and blood, learned how to move, how to put weight into attacks, how to open-up opponents, and how to block and evade attacks. Now imagine him trying to block a crystal spear or a volley of arrows with his fists. Now imagine him posting a YASD and complaining that monsters in the dungeons don't fight fair because they use teeth, claws, projectiles, melee weapons, magic, and other forms of attacking other than unarmed combat. Why do I even have to explain it?
If we're going to go with the whole "realism argument", think of it like this. If someone in the modern day can learn how to fight unarmed while wearing a 40 lb. suit of bullet proof armor while carrying another 50 lb. or so bag containing ammo, food, medical supplies, and the like while still performing attacks correctly, certainly someone in a robe and a shield can learn how to do so correctly with practice. In fact, it's even reflected in-game as is. Shields screw around with your combat capabilities until your skill level is high enough to properly handle in the shield. Your unarmed character with Shields 2 is struggling to fight correctly with a tower shield. But at Shields 25, he's had enough training and practice that he's used to it and the shield does not hinder him.
So, I'd say, in at least this respect, Crawl reflects both flavor and realism pretty darn well.
Oh, and by the way, for melee weapons, power also comes from rotating torso, legs, and arm limbs. You're not going to be doing much damage just by moving your elbow left-to-right with a sword in your hand. Just like with fist-fighting, combat with a melee weapon requires your full body to perform at maximum efficiency.
reaver wrote:Yes you did. A opportunity cost penalty is still a penalty.
reaver wrote:Tripling the effectiveness of a "viable" option will certainty make it dominant. Nobody would ever play with a shield for Ghouls if this went in.
Sandman25 wrote:Unarmed attacks are already the most powerful melee attacks (I saw my Troll doing 121 damage to Orb of Fire in a single hit without any boosts like Statue Form, Blade Hands or even potion of might), do we really want to improve it?
Also even with Shields 27 and a buckler your unarmed attacks are slowed down sometimes so you do have more powerful attacks when you don't use a shield, even if off-hand kick never deals any damage.
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Amnesiac wrote:I think it would be fine to improve off-hand punches, so there would be more point in not using shield, like between 1H and 2H weapons.
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Amnesiac wrote:shields have 50% to delay an UC attack by 1aut as far as I remember, it's slowing attacks by 10% maximum which is not enough reason to not use a shield, imo.
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Amnesiac wrote:shields have 50% to delay an UC attack by 1aut as far as I remember, it's slowing attacks by 10% maximum which is not enough reason to not use a shield, imo.
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epsilon wrote:Imagine a boxer. A swift and powerful person, that learned through sweat and blood how to move, how to put weight in attacks, how to open-up opponents, how to block and evade attacks. And now imagine him with a freaking tower shield. Why do I even have to explain it?
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Amnesiac wrote:no, it's 10% with 27 and less with a lower skill. 50% of 1aut is 0.5 and it's 10% of 5aut min delay UC attack and 5% of a 1 turn attack at 0 UC skill
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XuaXua wrote:Amnesiac wrote:shields have 50% to delay an UC attack by 1aut as far as I remember, it's slowing attacks by 10% maximum which is not enough reason to not use a shield, imo.
Is that 50% a flat amount, not at all enhanced by Shield and Unarmed skill amounts?
Halls Hopper
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One-Eyed Jack wrote:You can apply the exact same arguments to sword fighting. Also, crawl unarmed isn't boxing.
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XuaXua wrote:If the issue is with shields, enhance Shield Skill.
Shields can potentially do up to 1/2 aux damage, depending on Shield skill.
Just tossing the broad concept out there; not here to determine mechanics.
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TwilightPhoenix wrote:So please, drop the "it's not realistic" argument.
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DracheReborn wrote:I think the only scenario where UC+shields is something of a no-brainer is for UC trolls, but that's because of troll's special characteristics (already high UC damage, poor defense, and low investment to reduce shield penalties).
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epsilon wrote:Skipping everything else. You don't get difference between "realism" and "making sense". Fighting unarmed with shield has as much sense as fighting with ring mail, wearing sword on chest and helmets on legs. What? It's very "realistic" - person who trained for a life to fight in such conditions will be able to do it just fine, so there is no problems with this one, right?
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TwilightPhoenix wrote:So, you're saying we should ban people from using UC with a shield or heavy armor
epsilon wrote:it'll make not wearing a shield actually an option
epsilon wrote:I didn't suggest to forbid shields on UC characters nor did I suggest to add any penalty to them. So UC + shield character won't change at all.
epsilon wrote:Or it will not. It's not like your off-hand gives you shielding bonus, attributes or resistances.
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