Banish Demons from the Abyss


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Post Friday, 20th September 2013, 03:10

Banish Demons from the Abyss

I would like to either remove demons from the abyss, or seriously down-weight them. The place feels overrun with 3's and 4's and I'd like to further distinguish it from other branches like Pan.
There are some tentative plans to add other monsters to the abyss, like chimeras, so I don't think we'll be hurting for variety.

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Post Friday, 20th September 2013, 03:31

Re: Banish Demons from the Abyss

I support this. The Abyss currently feels too much like a demonic branch. However, if holy monsters are kept in the abyss after this change, I think some token demons should be left too.

If you need any more ideas for abyssal monsters, I had this one a while back:
  Code:
Cang (name subject to bikesheding)

Every major religion except the worshippers of Lugonu deny this monster exists, yet you cannot deny that you see it before you. Folklore claims the modern Gods exiled these creatures when they first came to power, because the Cangs were older than even then them. These stories also claim they are fond of attacking worshippers to force the divine to acknowledge their existence, but the Gods would sooner lose a pious follower than listen...

Basically, it's a monster which drains your piety when it hits you, like quasits hurt your dexterity. It's similar to draining or rot in it's a strategistic problem that encourages careful positioning. Maybe it should be neutral to Lugounites or athesists for flavour. I don't know how hard to code it would be to make these immune/untargettable by god abilities, but it'd be a nice touch.
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Post Friday, 20th September 2013, 04:53

Re: Banish Demons from the Abyss

brendan wrote:I would like to either remove demons from the abyss, or seriously down-weight them. The place feels overrun with 3's and 4's and I'd like to further distinguish it from other branches like Pan.
There are some tentative plans to add other monsters to the abyss, like chimeras, so I don't think we'll be hurting for variety.


Agreed. There are a few demons and demonic beasts that feel somewhat Abyssal to me, like chaos spawn, abominations, demonic crawlers, and neqoxecs, so maybe those can stay.

reaver: Piety drain sounds like it would be incredibly unpopular.

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Post Friday, 20th September 2013, 05:13

Re: Banish Demons from the Abyss

+1

The addition of things like ancient zymes, thrashing horrors, etc. was good and has started to give the abyss a unique "Lovecraftian horrors from beyond" feel. Replacing the 3s and 4s would be a positive continuing step in that direction.
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Post Friday, 20th September 2013, 05:30

Re: Banish Demons from the Abyss

minstrel wrote:"Lovecraftian horrors from beyond"


I may or may not have visited Lovecraft's grave (and then promptly gone insane).

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Post Friday, 20th September 2013, 09:41

Re: Banish Demons from the Abyss

I like this idea.

In general, I think it would be nice if Abyss is flavored as the "chaotic" branch, while Pan/Hell are the "demonic" branches. This would further support the natural opposition of Zin vs Logunu, and Abyss might come to be seen as the piety-farming region for Zin worshippers. And maybe the piety for gold mechanic for Zin could be reduced if there are more chaotic monsters (I've never liked the piety for gold mechanic for Zin, FWIW - doesn't feel like it fits).

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Post Friday, 20th September 2013, 10:51

Re: Banish Demons from the Abyss

nicolae wrote:
brendan wrote:I would like to either remove demons from the abyss, or seriously down-weight them. The place feels overrun with 3's and 4's and I'd like to further distinguish it from other branches like Pan.
There are some tentative plans to add other monsters to the abyss, like chimeras, so I don't think we'll be hurting for variety.


Agreed. There are a few demons and demonic beasts that feel somewhat Abyssal to me, like chaos spawn, abominations, demonic crawlers, and neqoxecs, so maybe those can stay.

reaver: Piety drain sounds like it would be incredibly unpopular.

There are definitely some demons which fit the abyss and should stay there, yes.

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Post Friday, 20th September 2013, 12:59

Re: Banish Demons from the Abyss

Frothing Madman

You think it's safe to say that this fellow has spent far too long wandering the endless blight of the Abyss. Utterly mad and consumed with a ravenous hunger, you wonder if he'd even recognize the way out when he found it.

----

'But I don't want to go among mad people,' said Alice. 'Oh, you can't help that,' said the cat. 'We're all mad here.'

-Lewis Carroll, _Alice's Adventures in Wonderland_, 1865


Stats slightly higher than those of a generic human, armed with a very random assortment of mundane and magical gear (the unpredictable trash loot of the Abyss, ranging from clubs to triple swords (though the high end stuff should obviously be much less common)), permanently berkserk, and has the food-devouring attack of a harpy (because bwahahaha evil). When killed drops 1-3 playable species corpses, rotting corpses, and/or skeletons. If these were implemented, I'd say they should replace the occasional vanilla player species monsters you currently encounter there; I don't think anyone's felt threatened by a random octopode or tengu, and if they were still sane, they'd probably be fleeing and avoiding fights just as much as you are.
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Post Friday, 20th September 2013, 13:29

Re: Banish Demons from the Abyss

evilmike wrote:There are definitely some demons which fit the abyss and should stay there, yes.

And if you *really* want an Abyss crawling with demons, just take a Lugonite through Pan first :)
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Post Friday, 20th September 2013, 13:53

Re: Banish Demons from the Abyss

I like this proposal a lot. It's easy to get sick of killing hellwings, smoke demons, white imps, quasits, and ubfuteri throughout three large branches. I'd love to see neqoxecs also get removed because I get tired of killing them too, but I agree that they make sense in the Abyss and are more interesting to deal with than the others on that list.

I also like the idea of adding more new monsters (including chimerae, yay) to the Abyss.

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Post Friday, 20th September 2013, 14:19

Re: Banish Demons from the Abyss

Is there any momentum behind the idea of un-demonizing chaos spawn? And possibly giving them a bit of a buff? The name and flavour text strike me as fitting better in the Abyss than in Pandemonium, and while their chaos attack and cloud of chaos upon death seem kind of neat on paper, they're remarkably fragile and rarely do much more than poke you a bit (I'm not sure I've ever actually experienced any noticeable chaos effects from their attacks).
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Post Friday, 20th September 2013, 15:23

Re: Banish Demons from the Abyss

MoogleDan wrote:Is there any momentum behind the idea of un-demonizing chaos spawn? And possibly giving them a bit of a buff? The name and flavour text strike me as fitting better in the Abyss than in Pandemonium, and while their chaos attack and cloud of chaos upon death seem kind of neat on paper, they're remarkably fragile and rarely do much more than poke you a bit (I'm not sure I've ever actually experienced any noticeable chaos effects from their attacks).


Perhaps make them significantly faster, so they land more chaos attacks, and/or make them billow chaos on death (so being to the plague shambler what the apocalypse crab is to the fire crab). Any buff on chaos spawn would make them extremely irritating to deal with when summoned, so I'd also be in favour of undemonizing them.

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Post Friday, 20th September 2013, 16:12

Re: Banish Demons from the Abyss

Well, a more Lovecraftian Abyss would be fantastic, and that being said, *breaks out his call of cthulu RPG book for some inspiriation*:

Fire Vampires:
"There appeared thousands of tiny points of light.... The myraid points of light were living entities of flame! for whatever they touched, fire sprang up" -- August Deleth, "The Dweller in Darkness"

Small, fast, move like bats, when they hit you they cause napalm and do fire-branded damage *and* drain MP and HP, High EV, Immune to fire, poison, magic, susceptible to cold.

Dark Young
"Something black in the road, something that wasn't a tree. Something big and black and ropy, just squatting there, waiting, with ropy arms squirming and reaching.... It came crawling up the hillside... and it was the black thing of my dreams-- that black, ropy, slimy jelly tree-thing out of the woods.It crawled up and it flowed up on its hoofs [sic] and mouths and snaky arms." -- Robert Bloch, "Notebook Found in a Deserted House"

Dark young have hooves, move swiftly (Centaur speed), have 4 reaching tentacles they can attack with, each capable of constricting an opponent at range 2, at range 1 they *also* have a bite attack that inflicts a draining status (In addition to doing nasty damage) and can attack you with hooves at range 1 as well. Low EV, High AC, plenty of HP, immune to magic, rPois, rC++, rSticky, rF-

Chthonian
"Flowing tentacles and pulpy gray-black, elongated sack of a body....no distinguishing features at all other than the reaching, groping tentacles. Or was there -- yes! -- a lump in the upper body of the thing... a container of sorts for the brain, ganglia, or whichever diseased organ governed this horror's loathsome life!" -- Brian Lunley, "The Burrowers Beneath"

Burrow through solid rock like boring beetles, tentacles attack up to 8 times a round with fire-branded damage, move slightly slower than average. have a special "mark" which lets all other Chthonians know where the player is, multiple Chthonians can psychic scream (like starcursed masses, it increases with the number in range, can get dangerous with the mark status and each Chthonian making a beeline for you) has a selection of earth spells, Immune to fire, very high AC, susceptible to cold, cannot cross shallow water (Shallow water acts like deep water for them, they drown instantly)


Those are a couple samples (if there's a desire I can pull more, but I suspect that crawl-developers would prefer a "take" on, rather than a direct pull of, Lovcraftian-esque monsters, particularly ones from a longstanding existing RPG) but some inspiration can be drawn :)
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Post Friday, 20th September 2013, 16:31

Re: Banish Demons from the Abyss

Chaos spawns are monsters that are faster than average player and can paralyse and banish you without a MR check. They typically start appearing around Orcish Mines as summons, and appear as summons through the whole game. I'm not sure they really need a buff.

Edit:
@Siegurt, those Fire Vampires sound like they would be really annoying, combining napalm, batty movement, high EV and loads of immunities. Also, do they sparkle?

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Post Friday, 20th September 2013, 17:02

Re: Banish Demons from the Abyss

Sar wrote:Chaos spawns are monsters that are faster than average player and can paralyse and banish you without a MR check. They typically start appearing around Orcish Mines as summons, and appear as summons through the whole game. I'm not sure they really need a buff.


Not a buff then, but something that places them somewhere between usually harmless and occasionally insta-deadly. Unpredictability is a good goal, but I think their implementation needs work. Besides, un-demonizing them would place them only in the Abyss, Mnolegland, and maybe some vaults here and there; they would no longer be Orcish Mines-level enemies anyway.
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Post Friday, 20th September 2013, 18:32

Re: Banish Demons from the Abyss

Sar wrote:Chaos spawns are monsters that are faster than average player and can paralyse and banish you without a MR check. They typically start appearing around Orcish Mines as summons, and appear as summons through the whole game. I'm not sure they really need a buff.

Edit:
@Siegurt, those Fire Vampires sound like they would be really annoying, combining napalm, batty movement, high EV and loads of immunities. Also, do they sparkle?

They *ARE* sparkles, evil evil sparkles. And yeah, they do sound pretty horrible (Not to mention the whole vampire drain MP/HP for healing thing, hitting the damn thing is a pain, and if you don't kill it it heals by sucking away your Hp)?
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Post Friday, 20th September 2013, 20:03

Re: Banish Demons from the Abyss

Siegurt wrote:Well, a more Lovecraftian Abyss would be fantastic, and that being said, *breaks out his call of cthulu RPG book for some inspiriation*:


I haven't played more than a handful of games of that, but it makes such wonderful light reading <3

Fire Vampires: I think enough people are furious at sticky flame already to make this an unpopular choice. Perhaps as an alternative approach to the mythos, you could have fire spring up wherever they go? Flame clouds a la ifriti coupled with batty movement sounds like it'd be a hectic mess, but it would result in less rage than sticky flame.

Dark Young: This seems like a more interesting tentacular grabby thing than the tentacled starspawn, but much less survivable. Why is it rSticky though? Burning down evil has always been the traditional approach.

Chthonian: ...Fighting multiple screaming fire hydras at once. Huh. At least Fedhasites could insta-kill the lot of 'em.

One more for ya...

Awakened substance

A patch of unstable Abyssal stuff which has been churned into a state vaguely resembling sentience, eager to feed and grow.

A stationary monster whose primary purpose is to obstruct movement and stop players from running helter skelter through the Abyss. Casts Leda's Liquefaction and Smite, and every turn has a 10% chance of converting an adjacent wall tile into another awakened substance.
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Post Friday, 20th September 2013, 20:28

Re: Banish Demons from the Abyss

MoogleDan wrote:
Siegurt wrote:Well, a more Lovecraftian Abyss would be fantastic, and that being said, *breaks out his call of cthulu RPG book for some inspiriation*:


I haven't played more than a handful of games of that, but it makes such wonderful light reading <3

Fire Vampires: I think enough people are furious at sticky flame already to make this an unpopular choice. Perhaps as an alternative approach to the mythos, you could have fire spring up wherever they go? Flame clouds a la ifriti coupled with batty movement sounds like it'd be a hectic mess, but it would result in less rage than sticky flame.

Dark Young: This seems like a more interesting tentacular grabby thing than the tentacled starspawn, but much less survivable. Why is it rSticky though? Burning down evil has always been the traditional approach.

Chthonian: ...Fighting multiple screaming fire hydras at once. Huh. At least Fedhasites could insta-kill the lot of 'em.

One more for ya...

Awakened substance

A patch of unstable Abyssal stuff which has been churned into a state vaguely resembling sentience, eager to feed and grow.

A stationary monster whose primary purpose is to obstruct movement and stop players from running helter skelter through the Abyss. Casts Leda's Liquefaction and Smite, and every turn has a 10% chance of converting an adjacent wall tile into another awakened substance.


Yeah, I intentionally picked horribly nasty creatures (I'm really a very very nasty GM) I figured that things that were terrible could be made easier.

Yeah, flaming trail bats would be much less rage inducing than napalm bats (Albeit still a pain in the butt, considering the weird nature of getting around in the Abyss)

rSticky for Dark young is primarily because they're described in the books as having almost-liquidy skin. Doesn't mean they *should* have it, it's just an unusual enough resistance that it seems like people using sticky flame would be like "Critter I can hit with flame! Yay!, Aw snap, no sticky flame" kinda a nice "gotcha" for their vulnerability.

Range 2 constriction for them seemed pretty damn wicked in and of itself (particularly with the range 1 draining maw of chomping doom)
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Post Friday, 20th September 2013, 20:57

Re: Banish Demons from the Abyss

reaver wrote:I support this. The Abyss currently feels too much like a demonic branch. However, if holy monsters are kept in the abyss after this change, I think some token demons should be left too.

If you need any more ideas for abyssal monsters, I had this one a while back:
  Code:
Cang (name subject to bikesheding)


Inspired by the idea of something that involves your piety:

Gibbering schismatic A constantly shifting mass of flesh, covered in mouths of all shapes and sizes, constantly howling and wailing and babbling in a thousand blasphemous tongues. It proclaims the death of all things and the end of all gods with undeniable clarity. Its words of nihilism and decay are anathema to all those who do not already worship Lugonu and know them already, and its terrible gospel will most affect those who are already well-devoted to other gods.

TL;DR "Lugonu Recite", which effects listeners with various effects after having the cold hard truths of the universe laid bare for them: slow, paralyse, confuse, int drain, MP drain, agony, etc. The sort of things you might expect might happen to a Lovecraft protagonist who learned too much. The effects get worse the more piety you have, and even the godless suffer some effects. Only followers of Lugonu are immune (though having good MR helps a lot too). The gibbering schismatic also has several bite attacks, which can rot, poison, and corrode.

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Post Friday, 20th September 2013, 21:25

Re: Banish Demons from the Abyss

nicolae: I like that a lot! You probably know my hopes/plans for strengthening the "Lugonu vs the gods" story arc (it's the bit where Lugonites are supposed to gain at least some piety be desecrating altars to other gods). What you have there fits nicely.

In my opinion, using piety as a parameter for some monster is a good idea as well, and the Abyss seems like a good fit. The main difference between Cang (monster's attack drains piety) and Gibbering Schismatic (worse monster effects for higher piety) is how players deal with it: facing a Cang, the best way is to flee (or break LOS) etc; against the Schismatic, it might be a much better idea to just burn through the piety. What I really like about both approaches is that once your piety is drained, you might just as well turn to Lugonu in order to leave this horrible place.
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Post Friday, 20th September 2013, 22:11

Re: Banish Demons from the Abyss

reaver wrote:I don't know how hard to code it would be to make these immune/untargettable by god abilities, but it'd be a nice touch.

Maybe instead of being untargetable by god abilities, give them a full-LOS 'apostasy aura' that prevents the use of divine abilities (and cancels active ones), abjures godly summons and gifts (maybe Yred gifts should turn neutral; they aren't summons), dispels sanctuary, reverts Fedhas oklobs and shrooms to plants and toadstools, and such.

I can see Beogh followers sticking by you, though. Orckind needs to stick together, y'know?

Maybe the aura should only turn on when they're aware, so you can't just avoid the auras and stealthy dudes can avoid some effects.
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Post Friday, 20th September 2013, 22:25

Re: Banish Demons from the Abyss

I like the concept of god abilities being stifled as it pushes forward the point that this is Lugonu realm.

Greater Corrupter
"This twisted creature is the epitome of devotion to the unformed god, Lugonu. Centuries of wandering the abyss have tangled this beings body and soul only leaving its unbending allegiance. From Its former mouth a constant pray is being whispers but from its mind you hear the harrowing word of Lugonu replacing your thoughts, you can't remember your own faith. It seems one mouth isn't enough for this believer, and yours has been taken hostage."

normal speed, high resiliance, low strength monster which automatically casts summon chaotic things (abominations, chaos spawn, eldritch tentacle) and nullify any activated god abilities by the player, including praying.

I'm not great at writing so feel free to change name of flavour text.
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Post Saturday, 21st September 2013, 00:25

Re: Banish Demons from the Abyss

njvack wrote:
reaver wrote:I don't know how hard to code it would be to make these immune/untargettable by god abilities, but it'd be a nice touch.

Maybe instead of being untargetable by god abilities, give them a full-LOS 'apostasy aura' that prevents the use of divine abilities (and cancels active ones), abjures godly summons and gifts (maybe Yred gifts should turn neutral; they aren't summons), dispels sanctuary, reverts Fedhas oklobs and shrooms to plants and toadstools, and such.
I just remembered the Moth of Nilhism. According the the comments, suppressing god abilities currently requires a lot of special cases (but refactoring the god code could change this) and is redundant because silence currently disables god abilities.
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Post Saturday, 21st September 2013, 00:32

Re: Banish Demons from the Abyss

brendan wrote:There are some tentative plans to add other monsters to the abyss, like chimeras, so I don't think we'll be hurting for variety.

Wouldn't mind seeing some abyss bosses either, and since the abyss is now mult-leveled you can stick them at/near the bottom.

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Post Saturday, 21st September 2013, 00:43

Re: Banish Demons from the Abyss

reaver wrote: According the the comments, suppressing god abilities currently requires a lot of special cases (but refactoring the god code could change this) and is redundant because silence currently disables active god abilities.


This is a pretty big distinction, or at least it should be.

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Post Saturday, 21st September 2013, 00:50

Re: Banish Demons from the Abyss

Necrotic worm (best name I could come up with) fast and does good damage. However, it never attacks on its own; instead, it seeks out another non-holy/demonic monster and fuses with it. This creates a chimera with good speed and attacks. The catch is it drains the health of the monster it's fused with. When that monster is dead, it may emerge again as a worm and repeat the process.
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Post Saturday, 21st September 2013, 01:56

Re: Banish Demons from the Abyss

reaver wrote:According the the comments, suppressing god abilities currently requires a lot of special cases (but refactoring the god code could change this) and is redundant because silence currently disables god abilities.


Hm, I wonder about just temporarily setting your piety to 0 while in the aura plus abjuring god summons. It'd be awfully irritating for chei dudes to suddenly get burdened, though.

Nemelex abilities, at least, work while silenced.
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Post Saturday, 21st September 2013, 04:15

Re: Banish Demons from the Abyss

brendan wrote:There are some tentative plans to add other monsters to the abyss, like chimeras...


This probably would be difficult to implement, but abyssal chimera having the possibility of player ghost heads (though not as undead, instead having their heads fused to the chimera through unspeakable abyssal rituals) might be interesting, and amusing.

  Code:
A chimera (death yak, hellephant, mikee)



Tiber wrote:However, it never attacks on its own; instead, it seeks out another non-holy/demonic monster and fuses with it.


This at first had me thinking Alien chest bursters. As a take on that, an Abyssal Worm could seek out other monsters and infect them with an inner flame type status effect. Only instead of bursting into a fireball on death, the monster bursts into one or more additional monsters. Tactically, it would combine the decisions you'd make with lost souls (kill the soul/worm first, or concentrate on the immediate danger?) with those of inner flamed or other death-effect monsters (do I have resources to deal with not just the monster but the death effects too?).

Or it could be reflavored into a Pandemonium worm - something sent to the abyss in a war between the evil gods, infecting abyssal creatures and causing them to explode into 3s and 4s on death

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Post Saturday, 21st September 2013, 10:30

Re: Banish Demons from the Abyss

Abyssal dragon
A relatively small, swiftly flying dragon with oily black scales, which ocassionally glow in weird colours. While weaker creatures {{ if you.xl() < 12 then return " (like you)" else return "" }} are usually quickly killed in the Abyss, dragons (like the ancestors of this one) can survive for enough time to reproduce and accumulate large amounts of mutations. Most dragons are eventually twisted beyond recognition, but some develop a resistance against further mutation. These twisted dragons are usually avoided, because their mutagenic breath quickly corrupts the bodies of living creatures, but they are ocassionally hunted as their hides make their wearer resistant to mutation (but unfortunately don't cure the mutations caused by the dragon).

Stats are similar to a quicksilver dragon, but they have less HP and AC and more EV. They have rMut, rF+, rC+, rN+, rPois+ and rElec+ (genetical faliatures without these are quickly killed in the Abyss) -- alternatively they have rMut + random resistances (like those granted by the dragonskin cloak). They breathe mutagenic clouds. Butchering their corpses may generate abyssal dragon hides (can be enchanted into abyssal dragon armour). Abyssal dragon armour grants mutation resistance like the amulet and has either 8 AC, 11 encumbrance (like fire dragon armour) (or alternatively 6 AC (=mottled dragon armour), 7 encumbrance (=ring mail and swamp dragon armour)). The hide also grants rMut, its values are similar to either fire dragon hide or swamp dragon hide.

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Post Saturday, 21st September 2013, 13:40

Re: Banish Demons from the Abyss

Don't all summons come from the Abyss? Isn't that where they are summoned from? If they were monsters made out of magic, and not living things pulled in from elsewhere, they'd be conjurations.

So if demons are removed from the Abyss, do we need to re-flavor Summoning? I guess making up something like "the shadow realm" as the source of summons can hand-wave that issue away.
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Post Saturday, 21st September 2013, 14:18

Re: Banish Demons from the Abyss

jejorda2 wrote:Don't all summons come from the Abyss? Isn't that where they are summoned from? If they were monsters made out of magic, and not living things pulled in from elsewhere, they'd be conjurations.

So if demons are removed from the Abyss, do we need to re-flavor Summoning? I guess making up something like "the shadow realm" as the source of summons can hand-wave that issue away.


The demonic summons come from pandemonium. It actually says it textually when you cast. You open the gate to Pandemonium. I think the Eldritch Tentacle comes from the Abyss though that really could be written off as a tentacle of a Tentacled Starspawn and not expounded further. You got me thinking about where the Natural Summons (Spammal, Hydra, Dragon, etc.) and the Ghosts for Haunt come from though...o_O;
I'm beginning to feel like a Cat God! Felid streaks: {FeVM^Sif Muna, FeWn^Dithmenos, FeAr^Pakellas}, {FeEE^Ashenzari, FeEn^Gozag, FeNe^Sif Muna, FeAE^Vehumet...(ongoing)}
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Crypt Cleanser

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Post Saturday, 21st September 2013, 14:52

Re: Banish Demons from the Abyss

I feel like the abyss could really use some simple monsters. You encounter so many special gimmick monsters one after another that none of them really stand out. They're being used as popcorn rather than the mini-bosses they should be.

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Post Saturday, 21st September 2013, 16:02

Re: Banish Demons from the Abyss

pubby wrote:I feel like the abyss could really use some simple monsters. You encounter so many special gimmick monsters one after another that none of them really stand out. They're being used as popcorn rather than the mini-bosses they should be.

"There can be no loud without soft."

I think of the small/large abominations as simple monsters (They don't do anything gimmicky do they?) Plus of course there's the assortment of "adventurer" characters (dwarves, tengu, etc.) Plus the Ufetebus/Lemure/ other 5's are also popcorn (Albeit gimmicky popcorn)
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Post Saturday, 21st September 2013, 16:43

Re: Banish Demons from the Abyss

Siegurt wrote:I think of the small/large abominations as simple monsters


Their stats are randomized, but other than that, they're sacks of HP. Chimera created from mundane creatures would be similarly pop-corn.
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Post Saturday, 21st September 2013, 18:52

Re: Banish Demons from the Abyss

Perhaps some guidelines on the type of creatures could help.
Here I present you Marbit's test for the abyss.

Spoiler: show
is the creature:
-defformed or mutated?
-tentacled?
-amorphous?
-utterly mad?
-a product of chaos?
-ancient beyond time?
-incomprehensible?
-a cultist?

If it fits two or more it may belong to the abyss.
Use common sense.

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Post Sunday, 22nd September 2013, 13:27

Re: Banish Demons from the Abyss

bcadren wrote:
jejorda2 wrote:Don't all summons come from the Abyss? Isn't that where they are summoned from? If they were monsters made out of magic, and not living things pulled in from elsewhere, they'd be conjurations.

So if demons are removed from the Abyss, do we need to re-flavor Summoning? I guess making up something like "the shadow realm" as the source of summons can hand-wave that issue away.


The demonic summons come from pandemonium. It actually says it textually when you cast. You open the gate to Pandemonium. I think the Eldritch Tentacle comes from the Abyss though that really could be written off as a tentacle of a Tentacled Starspawn and not expounded further. You got me thinking about where the Natural Summons (Spammal, Hydra, Dragon, etc.) and the Ghosts for Haunt come from though...o_O;


There should a special Pan floor filled with a huge number of rats, bats, hydras and other summonables! (Sorry for off-topic'ing.)

And one abyssal monster:

Dream Larva
Small and weak monster, somewhat similar to ant larva, but with a special spell, Nightmare. While in its pocket dimension (see below), it becomes slow, but nigh-invulnerable insectoid.

Nightmare - MR-resistible, draws the player into special pocket dimension, labyrinth-like but very small, where the player must find an exit before he is caught by the Dream Larva, if the player kills the Larva before escaping from the pocket dimension, an exit is immediately created under player's feet, but the player can safely take a nap and go back to the Abyss at full strenght
You slash the rat with your +7 +5 cursed slightly rusted very sharp meteoric steel demonic flaming triple sword of speed and pain covered with various bloods and vomit. The rat is not hurt.
The rat bites you.
You die…

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Post Sunday, 22nd September 2013, 15:38

Re: Banish Demons from the Abyss

Anything that reduces the number of neqoxecs in the game gets my full support.

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Post Monday, 23rd September 2013, 13:32

Re: Banish Demons from the Abyss

Dream Larva is cool, but would be very annoying.

"Oh great, I got banished from where I want to be, and now I'm in the abyss and have to escape. Oh great, I got sucked into yet another subdimension and now I have to escape that. I escaped! Oh, now I'm back in because I ran across another dream larva."

Mazes within mazes are pretty much guaranteed frustration.
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Post Monday, 23rd September 2013, 13:51

Re: Banish Demons from the Abyss

Lasty wrote:Dream Larva is cool, but would be very annoying.

Well, assuming you got at least a brief respite upon entering the new dimension, if I found myself at low health I'd be all Dream Larva, come rescue me!

I wanna share forever with one, baby.

OK but seriously if they were appropriately rare (like, you don't see one on every trip to get the Abyssal rune) they could be interesting.
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Post Monday, 23rd September 2013, 14:13

Re: Banish Demons from the Abyss

I like the general concept, but I think some other kind of mechanism for how dream larvae operate would be in order, rather than MR. Those who were cast to the abyss rather than going through the gate, got into this mess because of insufficiently low MR. Those who choose to go to the abyss will hardly even notice them, on the other hand. So perhaps something that doesn't check MR, but say requires X number of turns while the dream larva is on screen ("You feel something intruding your mind....") would be appropriate. If you fail to kill or escape the little guy you get sucked in to its nightmare.

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Post Monday, 23rd September 2013, 15:12

Re: Banish Demons from the Abyss

Here's an idea I just had for a corruption-themed unique :

The End of All Things
Outside the universe is a raging vortex of chaos which only seeks destruction. As a sliver of this maddening horror creeps into reality, it tears apart the fabric of space itself, consuming everything in sight until only oblivion is left.

This would be an insubstantial no-AC high-EV high-HP monster that would only spawn somewhere in the player's LOS, before the abyssal rune is generated. Each turn, every square on the edge of its LOS has a 1/3 chance of disappearing. If that happens, any items on it are lost forever, weak monsters and summons disappear and stronger monsters (as well as the player) are displaced towards The End of All Things while suffering some irresistible damage. If the player/monster cannot be moved further, the tile isn't destroyed and it takes additional damage. It cannot cause the LOS to become disconnected.
It has a melee attack that corrodes equipment and destroys food, scrolls and potions. Similarly, attacking it in melee may corrode the weapon. Conservation (not rCorr) helps.
Of course, it has immunity to poison, fire, ice, negative energy, electricity and acid (I'm not sure this is included in the "insubstantial" package). So to kill him you either want a good artifact weapon or non-elemental conjurations that get around his EV.
After it dies, the tiles in it LOS are slowly re-generated as random tiles, allowing some time for the player to rest before enemies start coming in again.

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Post Monday, 23rd September 2013, 18:41

Re: Banish Demons from the Abyss

As somebody who's been agitating for abyssal chimeras in tileschat for a bit, I'm very in favor of the idea. I think they could also fill out the design space a little more than what's suggested, with a couple different grades of chimera, like "larval chimera," "adult chimera," etc., if need be. But really, just enemy chimeras in general would be great, though I appreciate that it probably isn't an easy programming task.

Here are a few other idle monster thoughts:

Abyssal Gazer; as in what gazes back at you after you've gazed into it, etc. Make it relatively weak, like a moth, but give it mesmerize and umbra.

Mimic Mama, for lack of a better name. Where do mimics come from? The abyss seems like a natural home for them, especially with the rune mimic vaults and whatnot. Give it a TRJ-like ability to spit out mimics when damaged.

Living Cloud, because somebody in tileschat mentioned finding Lucy actually in the abyss, and then someone said that Lucy would be a cloud, and living clouds are cool. Make it a central "eye" with clouds that grow from it like tentacles do from several monsters. Clouds of chaos would be fine, probably, or a unique cloud effect that increases the rate of abyssal change.

Like I said, idle thoughts.

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Post Monday, 23rd September 2013, 19:47

Re: Banish Demons from the Abyss

Basalt statue
The bizzarre statue yields the image of a creature that was never meant to be, a creature whose very nature tears the fabric of reality. Its malign presence is fixed on you and insert images in your mind that present the rotten essence of the world beyond the veil that a sane mind produces.

A statue that has the following spells:
-Horror (it makes you scream)
-Paralize
-Rot
-Cantrip

This creature should be fairly rare.
The horror ability should make you scream even if paralized.

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Post Tuesday, 24th September 2013, 01:52

Re: Banish Demons from the Abyss

Homunculus
"This small humanoid deformity scurries low across the floor and along the walls, navigating its path using its keen scene of touch to feel vibrations through its surrounding structure. Whether for better camouflage or to better attune itself, this creatures physiology rapidly changes to mimics the material it's holding."

A small monster to mostly act like fodder, fairly common and maybe comes in small packs.

mediocre HP, AC and EV (apart from being kobold sized) normally

When placed adjacent to (or in) rock, stone, metal, crystal, water, lava (or any other terrain I might have missed) it gains buffs/debuffs where applicable:
rock.... +2AC, -2EV, LRD vulnerable
stone... +4AC, -4EV, LRD vulnerable
metal... +7AC, -7EV, LRD vulnerable, slower
crystal.. +6AC, -6EV, LRD vulnerable, reflects bolt spells
water... -2AC, +2EV, can swim, vulnerable to fire
lava..... +1AC, +1EV,can swim in lava, resists fire, vulnerable to cold, fire brand melee.

I just wanted to take advantage of the mismatched terrain in the Abyss, unlike abominations (the current fodder monster) this monster can pass water and lava, and in an interesting way. It's also slowed down by metal allowing most species to be able to escape.

The name a flavour Is up for change if necessary, but to carry on with this theme you can make shatter confuse this denizen of the Abyss.
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Post Tuesday, 24th September 2013, 04:55

Re: Banish Demons from the Abyss

nicolae wrote:Gibbering schismatic A constantly shifting mass of flesh, covered in mouths of all shapes and sizes, constantly howling and wailing and babbling in a thousand blasphemous tongues. It proclaims the death of all things and the end of all gods with undeniable clarity. Its words of nihilism and decay are anathema to all those who do not already worship Lugonu and know them already, and its terrible gospel will most affect those who are already well-devoted to other gods.

TL;DR "Lugonu Recite", which effects listeners with various effects after having the cold hard truths of the universe laid bare for them: slow, paralyse, confuse, int drain, MP drain, agony, etc. The sort of things you might expect might happen to a Lovecraft protagonist who learned too much. The effects get worse the more piety you have, and even the godless suffer some effects. Only followers of Lugonu are immune (though having good MR helps a lot too). The gibbering schismatic also has several bite attacks, which can rot, poison, and corrode.

Nice, I like it. :)

How about adding a new monster type as it's follower:

Corrupted Follower

Basically a "corrupted" version of a follower of any of the gods opposed to Lugonu. It's base type is human, and it can be one of these variations:
1. Corrupted paladin, wielding a good one-handed holy OR distortion weapon (flavor-wise, this is a paladin who had previously blessed his weapon, and MIGHT choose to distortion-brand it after converting to Lugonu), wielding a shield, but doesn't have a holy aura (since he's not a paladin anymore);
2. Corrupted warlord, wielding a powerful two-handed weapon (any brand would do EXCEPT anti-magic), a good longbow or crossbow, and wearing heavy armour;
3. Corrupted berserker, wielding a powerful two-handed anti-magic OR distortion weapon (similar to corrupted paladin) and wearing good armour (basically less AC than corrupted warlord but more EV);
3. Corrupted sorcerer, with a powerful set of spells;
4. Corrupted healer, that doesn't have any healing abilities, since he abandoned Elyvilon (this one might look like a joke creature compared to the others on this list, but since a healer usually has high Invo, it might still be dangerous (more explanation below));
5. Corrupted lich (an ex-follower of Kiku), with a decent (weaker than corrupted sorcerer) set of spells, a good pain OR distortion branded weapon (again, similar to corrupted paladin), and is an undead;
6. Corrupted gambler, with a decent weapon and (more importantly) a deck of cards (I don't know if this is possible to implement, lol);
7. etc.

Each of the corrupted follower type also has a unique set of abilities that reflects it's status as a Lugonu follower (Bend Space, banishment, etc like Abyssal Knight, or we can create new ones). In the case of corrupted healer, since a healer is likely to have very high Invo, it could use the abilities more powerfully than any other corrupted follower types.


***EXTRA PROPOSAL***

We can spice up the idea a little bit. Whenever the player encounters a band of Gibbering Schismatic and it's Corrupted Followers, there's a chance that a random god (other than Lugonu) interferes and sends a help of some kind. Could be a friendly temporal summon (orc warlord if Okawaru, deep elf annihilator if vehumet, etc), a consumable item (potion of berserk rage if Trog, etc), or anything. :)

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Post Tuesday, 24th September 2013, 07:07

Re: Banish Demons from the Abyss

1010011010 wrote:Homunculus
A small monster to mostly act like fodder, fairly common and maybe comes in small packs.

mediocre HP, AC and EV (apart from being kobold sized) normally

When placed adjacent to (or in) rock, stone, metal, crystal, water, lava (or any other terrain I might have missed) it gains buffs/debuffs where applicable:
rock.... +2AC, -2EV, LRD vulnerable
stone... +4AC, -4EV, LRD vulnerable
metal... +7AC, -7EV, LRD vulnerable, slower
crystal.. +6AC, -6EV, LRD vulnerable, reflects bolt spells
water... -2AC, +2EV, can swim, vulnerable to fire
lava..... +1AC, +1EV,can swim in lava, resists fire, vulnerable to cold, fire brand melee.


Maybe a bit too gimmicky for pop corn, but maybe alright. However you should drop the "reflect bolt spells" part, since it's highly spoilery and shouldn't be on an otherwise rather unremarkable monster. I guess the description of this monster, to be both succinct and deliver all relevant information, should be something like :

"It alters itself to match its environment.
It can walk through all types of walls, but that only partially shields it from harm.
It can swim in water and lava.
Walking through metal makes it slower."

Followed by a differently colored list of things that apply to it because of terrain (reminded in parentheses).

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Post Tuesday, 24th September 2013, 12:57

Re: Banish Demons from the Abyss

5ubbak wrote:Maybe a bit too gimmicky for pop corn, but maybe alright.
Walking through metal makes it slower."


Perhaps a bit gimmicky but it's an intuitive mechinic, the console symbol and tile could changes colour depending on what material has been assumed making it clearer. I suggested it because it directly reflects the abysses chaotic structure while keeping tactical to some level.

sorry it I implied these homunculus could travel through walls (like rock worms) but I only intended for them to walk through water and lava only.

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Post Tuesday, 24th September 2013, 13:37

Re: Banish Demons from the Abyss

Omnicyte

A violent, formless heap of Abyssal substance, snowballing larger and larger as it gathers everything in its path, but falling apart just as quickly.

A chaotic jelly with slightly better stats than a slime creature, it can burrow through any wall and devour any dungeon feature (altars, portals, etc.). Each time it does so, it grows bigger (large / very large / enormous / titanic omnicyte). Each turn, there's a 20% chance that some of it will crumble away and it'll shrink back one level, but it should never shrink below large once it's hit that stage. Give it rockworm AI to make it actively seek out matter whenever it's available.
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Post Tuesday, 24th September 2013, 13:59

Re: Banish Demons from the Abyss

Brendan I like your idea. Not so keen on most of the others though.

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