Useless unrand revamp: "Bullseye"

[MoogleDan]

I'm all for the game having a few phenomenally bad unrandarts out there (robe of misfortune, anyone?), but there are a few utterly useless and/or uninteresting artefacts that just lack any kind of pizazz. Is there much push among the dev community to rehaul some of these as was recently done with the amulet of the Air? As an example, I was looking at "Bullseye" this morning (+15 shield, -5EV) and wondering what the chances were of spicing it up a little.

One thought I had was to take a page from the axe of Woe and give it +∞ accuracy and sets EV to 0; both you and the enemy would land every hit (that you don't manage to block). Obviously that's a REALLY big boost to DPS there, but you are limited to one-handers, and it's also a huge handicap in theme with the original shield. I don't expect this to fly, but I'd just like to hear some brainstorming from you guys.

The two other unrands that struck me as terribly underwhelming:
*Knife of Accuracy
*Glaive of Prune (actually useful sometimes, but it's very dull, and there's so much untapped weirdness here!)

Any thoughts?

[ackack]

I think Bullseye is okay as is. I don't think many people consider it a good item, but I think if you wanted to make it a little more tempting a gentle nudge would be better than something like what you propose. While I like the idea of powerful items with distinct downsides, I think this proposed shield would be more or less unusable. Beyond the weirdness of the shield affecting the player's to-hit, that would be a fairly modest boost to damage done (because with mindelay skill and fighting your accuracy is already quite good) but a very substantial decline in defense (guaranteed hits from everything unblockable, getting hit quite a bit more in melee, etc.)

I agree that Knife of Accuracy is quite pointless. I would rather see the "untapped weirdness" of the Glaive of Prune trimmed and then just leave it as is.

[pubby]

Bullseye would be a lot more fun if it had reflection.

Also, its shop price should really be fixed. It's currently overpriced because of its huge +15 enchantment. It costs something crazy like $25000.

Knife of Accuracy

I agree; this one is complete trash. I'd rather see a slaying ring that gave +27/-9 or something.

Glaive of Prune

I wouldn't touch the prune. It's an artefact among the artefacts.

[MoogleDan]

I think Bullseye is okay as is. I don't think many people consider it a good item, but I think if you wanted to make it a little more tempting a gentle nudge would be better than something like what you propose. While I like the idea of powerful items with distinct downsides, I think this proposed shield would be more or less unusable. Beyond the weirdness of the shield affecting the player's to-hit, that would be a fairly modest boost to damage done (because with mindelay skill and fighting your accuracy is already quite good) but a very substantial decline in defense (guaranteed hits from everything unblockable, getting hit quite a bit more in melee, etc.)

I was thinking the shield would be a solid addition for some characters in plate armour, GDA, etc.; there are some character types which already ignore EV. As for the modest-ness of the damage increase, that would really depend on what you're up against. I had a jolly run through the Enchanted Forest last night, which may have colored my interest in a perfect anti-spriggan masher

[Mankeli]

Knife of Accuracy: I don't know why this exists, maybe there is some hidden bestness in there but I'm pretty sure there is NONE.

Glaive of Prune: How is +4,+12 purple vorpal glaive bad? Maybe a bit dull but not bad.

Bullseye: merge with the shield of the Gong, keep the +15 and lose the -5 EV.

[MoogleDan]

Glaive of Prune: How is +4,+12 purple vorpal glaive bad? Maybe a bit dull but not bad.

It's not bad at all! Just seems like too bizarre a concept not to have some unorthodox mechanics on it. Though I suppose the joke could be that it really IS just the blandest of things in spite of the flavour text.

[Sandman25]

Well, wiki page for Knife of Accuracy suggests to use it vs Rakshasa clones (HP 1, EV 30).

[MoogleDan]

Well, wiki page for Knife of Accuracy suggests to use it vs Rakshasa clones (HP 1, EV 30).

Heh, I wrote that bit in there as the only thing I could possibly imagine it being useful for The rest of the article is a whole lot of "Don't bother."

[DracheReborn]

Bullseye would be a lot more fun if it had reflection.

I'd like to second this. If the point of Bullseye is that you're going to get hit, might as well have something happen right? Reflection isn't much of a buff though, so it would be mostly for fun and flavour.

[Sandman25]

I still support removing Bullseye but giving Gong EV-5 and increasing its enchantment to +27.

Wouldn't +27 enchantment make fighting in corridors too powerful? I was happy in Vaults 5 when got marked in a narrow corridor where only one monster could see me (and it was adjacent to me so anti-magic weapon was extremely useful). It does not take long to equip shield comparing to heavy body armour.

[MoogleDan]

The gong effect still makes it about on par with activating a Sentinel's Mark any time you fight something. The shield had better be overpowered to make up for that. And besides, you can't alwaysfind a convenient corridor to hide in.

[nicolae]

Glaive of Prune: How is +4,+12 purple vorpal glaive bad? Maybe a bit dull but not bad.

It's not bad at all! Just seems like too bizarre a concept not to have some unorthodox mechanics on it. Though I suppose the joke could be that it really IS just the blandest of things in spite of the flavour text.

It does have some mechanical support -- Zin still hates it even though the transmutation effect doesn't actually do anything.

[Sandman25]

The gong effect still makes it about on par with activating a Sentinel's Mark any time you fight something. The shield had better be overpowered to make up for that. And besides, you can't alwaysfind a convenient corridor to hide in.

That's why I wrote about little time to wear/unwear the shield. I often call for attention (tt) when I am happy to fight in current location (vs Killer Bees vault for example), +27 gong can make it even easier.

[pubby]

It does not take long to equip shield comparing to heavy body armour.

6 turns is a really long time. It takes 11 turns to swap shields.

And besides, you can't alwaysfind a convenient corridor to hide in.

Digging!

[Mankeli]

I still support removing Bullseye but giving Gong EV-5 and increasing its enchantment to +27.

This is fine for me as well (I originally just stole your proposal and tweaked it anyways).

@Sandman25: Shield swapping is really not feasible strategy is that is what you meant.

[pubby]

One idea for the knife is to make it bypass all EV and AC. It should still deal pitiful damage though.

[MoogleDan]

One idea for the knife is to make it bypass all EV and AC. It should still deal pitiful damage though.

If we did that, I wouldn't mind changing it to having a phantasmal warrior flavour to it, and maybe giving it a little more juice in the damage department.

Alternatively, I was thinking we could give it a boost to the accuracy of any spells you cast while wielding it, too. Admittedly the first use for that that comes to mind (Bolt of Inaccuracy) couldn't be affected, but it'd be solid for anyone with Conjurations who hasn't found the right staff yet.

[Amnesiac]

Heh, I wrote that bit in there as the only thing I could possibly imagine it being useful for

Maybe you could use it to pop giant spores by throwing it?

[MoogleDan]

Heh, I wrote that bit in there as the only thing I could possibly imagine it being useful for

Maybe you could use it to pop giant spores by throwing it?

Sure, though I think players are likely to find a wand of magic darts loooong before they find this one inventory-clogging stinker...

[Siegurt]

Glaive of Prune: How is +4,+12 purple vorpal glaive bad? Maybe a bit dull but not bad.

It's not bad at all! Just seems like too bizarre a concept not to have some unorthodox mechanics on it. Though I suppose the joke could be that it really IS just the blandest of things in spite of the flavour text.

It does have some mechanical support -- Zin still hates it even though the transmutation effect doesn't actually do anything.

It should give you a stealth bonus when standing on purple floor tiles.

[TeshiAlair]

Maybe Prune could have a +2 against carnivores.

[reaver]

MarvinPA just updated these randarts. Bull's eye is now a large shield. Gong lost Spirit Shield (I don't know if this is a buff or nerf). The Knife of Accuracy and Boots of the Assassin no longer generate, which means we no longer have any unrandart boots.

[nicolae]

MarvinPA just updated these randarts. Bull's eye is now a large shield. Gong lost Spirit Shield (I don't know if this is a buff or nerf). The Knife of Accuracy and Boots of the Assassin no longer generate, which means we no longer have any unrandart boots.

I'm sure there'll be plenty of ideas for unrand boots soon enough.

[MoogleDan]

MarvinPA just updated these randarts. Bull's eye is now a large shield. Gong lost Spirit Shield (I don't know if this is a buff or nerf). The Knife of Accuracy and Boots of the Assassin no longer generate, which means we no longer have any unrandart boots.

I'm sure there'll be plenty of ideas for unrand boots soon enough.

New unrand boots, eh?

https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8984

[Sar]

What was the point of making Bullseye a large shield? Not many character types use those to begin with, and for those who do wouldn't a regular large shield still be better (not even talking about one with a useful ego)? I guess you can stack SH really high this way, but is it practical?

[pubby]

Bull's eye is now a large shield.

Sounds to me like bullseye is now even more useless.

The boots of the Assassin don't do anything that isn't already done in a
more interesting way by one or more of the cloak of the Thief, robe of
Night or ring of Shadows.

It also didn't have anyone complaining about it...

[dpeg]

pubby: You see, this is why you play the game and others design it. What about some context, or are you content with complaining?

[MoogleDan]

Large shields are available to a much smaller group of species, require much more training, and provide a benefit which is arguably not too hot (though personally I love when I go to the bother of getting a nice large shield of resistance up and running and melee Antaeus with ease), so I can imagine many people might look at this change and consider it worse. While I didn't like the original Bullseye, looking at this unrand's new state, I'd personally take a regular shield or large shield with any ego (except maybe protection) over this. As such, I'm curious to hear what the rationale was for making this a large shield.

[Sar]

I would take a shield that gives me 3 more AC over a shield that gives me 5 less EV.

[dpeg]

There seems to be an impression that unrandarts have to be good for everyone. That is not the intention!
Apart from joke items, we certainly want those items to have some target audience. However, it is alright if that audience is pretty small. In other words, they can fill weird niches, as long as such a niche exists (which didn't seem to be the case for the Knife).

[pubby]

pubby: You see, this is why you play the game and others design it. What about some context, or are you content with complaining?

Where's MarvinPA's reasoning for those changes? He made these changes without even participating in the discussion.

[1010011010]

Glaive of Prune: How is +4,+12 purple vorpal glaive bad? Maybe a bit dull but not bad.

I thought the Glaive of Prune produced prunes on kill (instead of corpses), not sure why I thought that but it would be a cool effect.

[ackack]

pubby: You see, this is why you play the game and others design it. What about some context, or are you content with complaining?

Where's MarvinPA's reasoning for those changes? He made these changes without even participating in the discussion.

Yes, the timing and objects changed suggest this thread was likely a cause, so I'd agree it's kinda weird.

I also struggle to see what niche is being filled by large shield Bullseye. I'm sure somebody will use it, but they probably shouldn't --- even a blank large shield might well be better, and I would guess any other ego would definitely be --- and it's not like it's a very interesting item. I thought the proposal of merging it with Gong made a lot of sense.

[zugundertherug]

I haven't really used the +fog on (Thief cape? I think?) the unrand cape yet... Is it this powerful?

From my experience yes. Not only does it block los and provide a handy escape method/force casters to approach, the fog clouds can keep other clouds from affecting you. No need to worry about miasma, flame, freezing, poison, mutagenic, or chaos clouds.

I thought the proposal of merging it with Gong made a lot of sense.

I think Gong is powerful enough as is. For a caster who's already making tons of noise the there's no real handicap, and it offers some superb bonuses so a fighter can consider using it. Stabbers obviously stay away.