A more nuanced evil god proposal


Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.

Snake Sneak

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Post Friday, 11th March 2011, 22:18

A more nuanced evil god proposal

The theme here is more like actual religion's concept of the devil, as opposed to the "kill kill blood kill" kind of evil gods we have right now in the game.

Notably, none of his/her abilities will involve killing. Directly or indirectly Instead, he will rely on "spreading lies and wreaking havoc on the souls of mankind" as the below article put it nicely.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil for where i got alot of the material to base this idea on.

Likes:
Abandoning another god. (You keep a fraction of your previous piety when you switch)
Trickery (Maybe associate this with casting hexes)

Ignores:
Prayer
Killing
Sacrifices
Attempting to join the religion unless you are abandoning another god.

Dislikes:
Using any item which was a God Gift.

Abilities:
The ability ideas are up for debate. Theres a few suggestions but it mostly doesnt matter what these are as long as they fit the concept:

Protection based on piety from other God abilities (Smite, etc. Also includes retribution effects due to wrath. I think it would work nicely with the requirement that you incur wrath to worship)

Serpent form

Passive stealth boost

Support hexes

High piety cost ability to turn a hostile demon or angel into a neutral or hostile creature of the opposite "holiness". E.g. turn a Balrug into a Daeva.

Snake Sneak

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Post Saturday, 12th March 2011, 08:07

Re: A more nuanced evil god proposal

It's really hard to judge this based on what little you've given.

However, I think it would be extremely interesting to have a god that acted as an adversary to another god, like how we traditionally think of Satan's role in Christianity.

He would be a god of Sins. What constitutes a "sin", of course, would be defined by some other god. So either this god would be tied to an already existing god (the most obvious example would be TSO, I guess), or two gods would be introduced specifically to for this dynamic.

To raise Piety with the God of Sins, you'd have to simply piss off the other Other God. The more you kill your allies, eat quokka meat, cast magic, whatever, the more powers you get from the God of Sins--and the more penance you have to suffer from the Other God.

I imagine the two gods would be tied to the same altar--you can't worship the God of Sins directly. You worship the Other God, and either you can worship him straight, or you can immediately start pissing him off.
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Mines Malingerer

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Post Sunday, 13th March 2011, 18:31

Re: A more nuanced evil god proposal

I never liked the view of evil as 'opposite of good' , i.e. the same as TSO but likes the opposite things. A 'devil' kind of a god should be manipulative, and dealing with the devil should be dangerous but offer great power.

Well, anyways, here's some ideas of mine:
The devil is manipulative and deceitful. He is also amoral. You can't really please him, or gain his favor. It's silly to think that he would feel indebted to a puny mortal such as the player. They are merely pawns for him to toy with. (Note that this does sound a lot like Xom.)

Instead of piety, there should be 'control'. The player starts with full control of his soul when he joins the religion. A little bit of control is lost every time an ability is used, and losing too much control should have dire consequences to the player.
The abilities, however, should be powerful and the devil could even actively try to tempt the player to give more and more control over to him - perhaps via gifts of powerful items or allies, or situational help during high tension moments.
Control should be difficult to regain - either the methods should be harsh (some kind of self-punishment, for example permanently losing hp or mp etc.) or the player could be met with resistance by the devil or both.

EDIT: Note that I don't really know how well this would translate to good or interesting gameplay; it's just an interesting (and, well, a bit cliché) theme in my opinion

Snake Sneak

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Post Monday, 14th March 2011, 15:44

Re: A more nuanced evil god proposal

I like the idea of basing the things he likes on who you abandoned, but that's probably too complicated to implement realistically.

I wonder if we could do something like +piety for each point of wrath you earn with your previous god? That might not be impossible to implement. Probably too tough to balance though since the difficulty of doing this would depend pretty strongly on who you abandoned:

Trog: cast a spell - too easy
Okawaru: let an ally die - moderate
Kiku: nothing available - impossible

You mentioned i don't have much here, but i'm trying to figure out what is missing so i can flesh out the details. What is lacking here? I think you guys are both getting the flavor i'm trying to go for. Of course the mechanics need some fleshing out still.

Snake Sneak

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Post Monday, 14th March 2011, 15:56

Re: A more nuanced evil god proposal

Sorry to reply twice, but i was reading your post and realized. There has to be a "deal with the devil" style one time gift (at max piety? or maybe immediately when you join)! Thats a fantastic idea to add.

Blades Runner

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Post Monday, 14th March 2011, 16:42

Re: A more nuanced evil god proposal

In the Crawl universe, I believe this "anti-diety" is Lugonu. S/he's supposed to be outside the "normal" pantheon, and opposed to all of them. There's even an altar vault that provides a "temptation" based on the character's current religion.

Snake Sneak

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Post Monday, 14th March 2011, 16:58

Re: A more nuanced evil god proposal

The way i see things, Lugonu is more centered around the abyss. Could she be made into something more like what i am proposing? Maybe if some of the proposed altar corruption and such went into the game. But i disagree that she even comes close as she is currently implemented.

Dungeon Master

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Post Monday, 14th March 2011, 17:12

Re: A more nuanced evil god proposal

Future Lugonu will involve desecration (i.e. destruction) of other god's altar, which will net wrath but also a lot of Lugonu piety. In this sense, she is supposed to be the antagonistic god. From what I've seen in this thread so far, I am not sure how to turn it into an actual Crawl deity.

Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Monday, 14th March 2011, 17:17

Re: A more nuanced evil god proposal

written before dpeg:
required reading

written after dpeg:
oh I see dpeg got here first (but still reading the wiki page would be nice)

Snake Sneak

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Post Monday, 14th March 2011, 19:21

Re: A more nuanced evil god proposal

I was already aware of that page, hence my comment about "if the proposed altar corruption goes in".

However, i still feel that Lugonu fundamentally doesn't fit what i am looking for here because ultimately her piety still depends on killing which is exactly like every other evil god.

I get that this isnt a fully fleshed out proposal though, thats why i'm hoping for specific areas which you think aren't yet developed enough to implement.

Spider Stomper

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Post Tuesday, 15th March 2011, 10:14

Re: A more nuanced evil god proposal

While there's a certain "tempter"-aspect of the traditional devil, there's another aspect that could be explored in a Crawl deity: That of a "Prometheus"-style god. The devil is really misunderstood, he sought to bring light to mankind etc.

It would form a nice match with two other "outcast" gods: Lugonu is the evil one. Ashenzari, being chained, is the neutral one. This Prometheus guy would be the "good" one - but still in opposition to the good gods, of course.

It could perhaps be not a god at all, but a demigod who championed the rejection of deity-reverance in favour of self-sufficiency. Take the power that would go to your god and use it yourself, that sort of thing. No piety, no granted powers, but better stats (like demigods, which this proposal could possibly replace), hp, mp. Maybe an ability to focus on a self-selected skill at the expense of all others - the one that "defines you".
Crazy Yiuf mutters: "Good: bonuses. Bad: Boni. Ugly: Bonii!"

Snake Sneak

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Post Tuesday, 15th March 2011, 23:20

Re: A more nuanced evil god proposal

Ashenzari's pretty blatantly a Prometheus figure, I think.

I like the idea of a third, but 'good', outcast god, but I think simply making stats better is pretty boring. It really wouldn't make players play differently, it'd just be enhanced godless play.

As for Lugonu, I'm glad there are plans to add in altar desecration and whatnot. I feel as though that you shouldn't get piety for killing monsters--maybe only banishing them. Or you get one pip of piety per altar you desecrate, and desecrating more gives you corruption-themed gifts or something. Or a gift that goes directly against what the god whose altar you just desecrated stands for. This is a more natural way of getting gifts than how Okuwaru and Trog operate, I think, and I think a chance at a decent item is an all right trade for invoking the wrath of a god (i.e. corrupting a Chei altar has a high chance of giving you a weapon of speed, Trog--a powerful magic book or item of wizardry) . Obviously there would have to be a special case with the Temple so you can't just walk in and get 6 pips and a bunch of gifts--maybe the combined power of the gods prevents corruption? Or you can only use your Corrupt Level ability in it to corrupt the entire Temple at once, netting no wrath, but still giving you a pip of piety.

I guess piety should still decay, though... maybe for each altar you desecrate, you 'unlock' a new level of max piety? If you only desecrate 3 altars, you can only get 3 pips max of piety, and you have to keep banishing (or killing) monsters to keep it up.
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Dungeon Master

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Post Wednesday, 16th March 2011, 08:38

Re: A more nuanced evil god proposal

Gifts are already problematic, so we try to avoid adding more of them.
<+Grunt> You dereference an invalid pointer! Ouch! That really hurt! The game dies...

Dungeon Master

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Post Wednesday, 16th March 2011, 10:51

Re: A more nuanced evil god proposal

seth wrote:As for Lugonu, I'm glad there are plans to add in altar desecration and whatnot. I feel as though that you shouldn't get piety for killing monsters--maybe only banishing them. Or you get one pip of piety per altar you desecrate, and desecrating more gives you corruption-themed gifts or something. Or a gift that goes directly against what the god whose altar you just desecrated stands for. This is a more natural way of getting gifts than how Okuwaru and Trog operate, I think, and I think a chance at a decent item is an all right trade for invoking the wrath of a god (i.e. corrupting a Chei altar has a high chance of giving you a weapon of speed, Trog--a powerful magic book or item of wizardry) . Obviously there would have to be a special case with the Temple so you can't just walk in and get 6 pips and a bunch of gifts--maybe the combined power of the gods prevents corruption? Or you can only use your Corrupt Level ability in it to corrupt the entire Temple at once, netting no wrath, but still giving you a pip of piety.

I guess piety should still decay, though... maybe for each altar you desecrate, you 'unlock' a new level of max piety? If you only desecrate 3 altars, you can only get 3 pips max of piety, and you have to keep banishing (or killing) monsters to keep it up.

I am married to the new Lugonu concept (the only reason I cannot rally for it is that lack of wrath overhaul. If you want to discuss it, do it on the wiki, please. Much more likely to leave a lasting effect. Thanks!

Mines Malingerer

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Post Wednesday, 16th March 2011, 13:07

Re: A more nuanced evil god proposal

coolio wrote:I never liked the view of evil as 'opposite of good' , i.e. the same as TSO but likes the opposite things. A 'devil' kind of a god should be manipulative, and dealing with the devil should be dangerous but offer great power.


I might be straying a bit here, but I like the idea of sacrificing oneself for great power.

Imagine actually donating pieces of max health, mp, or stats for piety. These would probably have to be cast as incurable mutations rather than plain mutations or stat decay to avoid interactions with existing items. A particular donation would be an ability that leads to a reduction of the appropriate stat for an extended duration, say 1000 turns, and your piety gain would be tied to how many donations you're currently giving. Perhaps the higher levels of piety would be locked unless you've passed certain thresholds of donations.

The goal is that optimal style of play under this god would mean lowering your stats, MP, and HP to the absolute minimum at which you think you can survive. It'd be a careful balancing act, and lead to playstyles that are currently unheard of since they'd involve getting by at the lowest levels possible. The benefits from these donations, high piety cost abilities and abilities unlocked under the higher piety levels, would have to be good enough that the donations are worthwhile, skewed so much that a player must try to cripple their character as much as possible.

Regarding theme, I could see this going in the direction of the devil, some sort of horrible dark lord, some sort of lovecraftian monstrosity, or the god of self-affliction that was discussed here a while back. I don't have a lot of time to brainstorm abilities right now, but I'll throw out a few examples. The strength of this proposal right now should be the low health/stats mechanic I mentioned and not the abilities I'm about to suggest:

-Wizardry and slaying bonuses (increasing with piety)
-Miasma clouds
-Mass enslavement
-Moderately powerful life saving - The dark lord wants to protect his donater. Also makes sacrificing HP a little less risky, but not by much.
-Capstone single target irresistible crippling spell. Temporarily lowers all attributes of the target (HD, max health, attack, spell power).

I might type up a full blown proposal later...

Dungeon Master

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Post Wednesday, 16th March 2011, 13:14

Re: A more nuanced evil god proposal

cybermg: An interesting idea. Please check what others have thought about in this direction:
https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php?id=dcss:brainstorm:god:summons
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Swamp Slogger

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Post Wednesday, 16th March 2011, 17:06

Re: A more nuanced evil god proposal

Ugh we already have enough "Evil" Gods.
Although i do think it would be cool to have a rival to TSO named TDO
(The Dark One)
And switching from one to the other one could keep their Piety but be forever banned from the other one and the Penance never goes away.
However as cool as that sounds i still think that there are way too many Evil Gods and not enough good ones.

Snake Sneak

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Post Thursday, 17th March 2011, 00:37

Re: A more nuanced evil god proposal

dpeg wrote:I am married to the new Lugonu concept (the only reason I cannot rally for it is that lack of wrath overhaul. If you want to discuss it, do it on the wiki, please. Much more likely to leave a lasting effect. Thanks!


Okay, I elaborated upon my comment and added it to the wiki.

Snake Sneak

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Post Thursday, 17th March 2011, 07:21

Re: A more nuanced evil god proposal

The game does desperately need more than 3 "good" gods in the selection panthion. I'd like to see Okawaru modified somehow into a "good" god to make his play style feel less of a Trog-like hack and slash. Trog could become the new "evil" god. A god of summons/necromancy overlaps with Kiku.

Snake Sneak

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Post Thursday, 17th March 2011, 08:41

Re: A more nuanced evil god proposal

The was a good god for the undead on the wiki that I thought was interesting.

Vaults Vanquisher

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Post Thursday, 17th March 2011, 20:31

Re: A more nuanced evil god proposal

I think the issue with 'good' gods is that they allow you to switch between them amicably and without wrath. None of the evils or neutrals allow this, so I figure they wanna keep this to a minimum.

Halls Hopper

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Post Wednesday, 23rd March 2011, 11:30

Re: A more nuanced evil god proposal

Though if you wanna make a twisted mean god, you could set up a nasty gimmick that lets you gain piety depending on how much blood you splatter across the floor and walls (Pretty visible in tile version when you slowly nick away at someone or splatter them), the amount of fear you instill in creatures (like forcing them to run away), Enjoys worshipers using pain branded weapons or items specialized in killing specific types of creatures (Orc slaying brands on orcs, or fire on hydras, etc).

It get's old when a 3rd of the gods available want you to sack corpses opposed to do something interesting, like dice up you enemies, light their chunks on fire, and hurl them at the dungeon dwelling infidels that do not worship "Anpflaumerei Kebab" The Vendor Of Hot "Kosher" meats.

Dungeon Master

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Post Wednesday, 23rd March 2011, 14:56

Re: A more nuanced evil god proposal

Of course it's more fun and also more thematic to use fear and blood. When brainstorming this - which is great - please also have an eye on abuse. Would it be conceivable that players use sub-par weapons in Lair, so as to make sure monsters flee rather than possibly dying without blood splatter. (I believe the idea can be used, it just needs a little thought. Also, there is no need to add a new god for this. An existing blood god would be very happy about a new piety rule involving blood and/or fear.)

Halls Hopper

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Post Wednesday, 23rd March 2011, 17:40

Re: A more nuanced evil god proposal

Yes, it would make the blood god more... Bloody. Differentiate a bit from the others.

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