The Tavern

=> There is no other way to obtain blessed launcher (like a bow for example) other than serving TSO (to get the holy wrath brand).
=> There is a way to obtain blessed melee weapons other than TSO blessing (holy monsters drop).

That is a huge disadvantage for the hunters comparing to fighters: while fighters does not have to worship TSO to obtain the holy stuff (they might kill the angel as well), the hunters have to do it.

There are several ways to solve this problem:
1. Allow some holy monsters to use holy launchers (which would be particularly dangerous for undead species like vampires or ghouls),
2. Allow RNG to generate holy launchers in the dungeon so there is a chance to find it somewhere,
3. Add some temporal source of this brand (a spell?); that would be a good alternative for worshiping TSO when going to hell.

"Don't allow TSO to holy-brand launchers." seems better than any of those to me, especially since none of the other gods can brand launchers.

I also wouldn't mind making god-gifted brands (holy, pain, distortion, antimagic) significantly rarer on melee weapons, the main problem with this is that some of them are pretty good threats for monsters to get hold of and it would be a shame to lose that (this has been an argument against removing the dragon slaying brand, too).

"No change" also seems entirely reasonable since late-game ranged weaponry is probably just as absurd whether it has the holy brand or not.

It's also really, really easy to worship TSO and reach full piety in the end game, he works wonders there, and even if you do bail on him immediately after, his penance isn't that horrific, especially if you don't go evil afterwards. Since you don't get nearly as much benefit out of holy wrath in the early game as in late and extended, I think it's a pretty minor handicap.

A blessed launcher is not much better than just a launcher of velocity + branded ammo, btw.

I am always pissed when I find a trapped Angel with a holy-branded WHIP instead of a Scourge. It's my opinion that Holy brand should never appear on tridents or whips.

minmay wrote:Another option is to get rid of holy/distortion/pain blessing. Vehumet giving everyone access to poison arrow was considered unacceptable; Lugonu currently gives everyone access to distortion...

To be fair, I feel like pArrow is more powerful than distortion branding, personally.

TSO does need a little bit of a nerf, to be honest. I mean look at good percentages for three-runers versus extended. (In three runers Berserk starts that kept Trog have the lead at a little under 20%; in fifteen runers TSO has the lead at more than a quarter of games [because of how useful Holy Wrath is in Tomb/Crypt and the Hells]); moving the branding away would be helpful to rebalance, I think...

minmay wrote:TSO is currently pretty much one of the weakest gods in the game. TSO doesn't get used a lot because TSO is good, TSO gets used a lot because players are bad. Your argument from listgame statistics could be used equally well to argue that the worst god in the game is better than the best god in the game:
!lg * won s=god wrote:13824 games for * (won): 1864x Trog, 1755x Okawaru, 1583x Vehumet, 1274x The Shining One, 1203x Sif Muna, 1008x Makhleb, 731x Ashenzari, 710x Kikubaaqudgha, 565x Nemelex Xobeh, 452x, 444x Lugonu, 405x Jiyva, 329x Cheibriados, 313x Yredelemnul, 308x Zin, 296x Elyvilon, 246x Xom, 171x Beogh, 167x Fedhas

I'm not sure TSO is one of the "weakest gods in the game"; is he really as bad as Cheibriados, or even roughly comparable?
I might need to see some of your reasoning for this, minmay.

That is a huge disadvantage for the hunters comparing to fighters

No it's not. The chance of a hunter finding a vorpal scroll + some silver bolts is much more likely than a melee fighter finding a usable holy weapon.

Also, hunters use melee weapons too.

Another option is to get rid of holy/distortion/pain blessing. Vehumet giving everyone access to poison arrow was considered unacceptable; Lugonu currently gives everyone access to distortion...

She also gives everyone access to banish and corrupt. Might remove those as well.

bcadren wrote:TSO does need a little bit of a nerf, to be honest. I mean look at good percentages for three-runers versus extended. (In three runers Berserk starts that kept Trog have the lead at a little under 20%; in fifteen runers TSO has the lead at more than a quarter of games [because of how useful Holy Wrath is in Tomb/Crypt and the Hells]); moving the branding away would be helpful to rebalance, I think...

Maybe you should look at the percantages of how many THREE-RUNERS completed the game with TSO.

The Tavern

Blessed range weapon

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