Demonspawn remake suggestion

[epsilon]

Demonspawn is by far my favorite specie in Crawl. It's more like I play Crawl only with Demonspawns, with one-two exceptions through ~20 games, seriously. I think it's really awesome specie with great idea, nice balanced weaknesses and fun gameplay. And I think, they are fine as they are. However, I had been reading Tavern for quite long time, and found few statements, that made me change my way of thinking about this specie.
If I got it right, Demonspawns were planned to be a specie, that requires player to adapt and be ready to change his/her playstyle almost anytime, when a new mutation kicks in. And, according to some people, sometimes this specie really can surprise you and force you to do so. There were questions/complains about "Nightstalker" mutation and "Monstrous" mutations facet, like "why some people abandon their characters, when they get Nightstalker/Monstrous?" and suggestions to move them somewhere, be it new specie or eternal oblivion. For what I think now - these is two best Demonspawn's mutations according to it's original idea. Both of these mutations affect game to such extent, that some players find it's no longer possible to play the same way they played up till now or planned to play. And I think it's awesome.
To be honest, right now I playing Demonspawns not like "very random race, that requires adapting", but like "very random race, that can get absurdly powerful if RND favors you". That's me, I don't know about other players, though. But lately I find myself become more curious, when facing these "game-breaking" mutations. I don't think "damn, again this useless Nightstalker", instead, I try to make use of this mutation. And I come to like Demonspawn's original idea very much.
However, at this moment, I don't think Demonspawn specie requires too much adapting nor rewards such playstyle enough. So my suggestion is to make these mutations less random but more cardinal. Something like premade patterns, possibly, with some themes.

To make it more like an actual suggestion, than just concept:
1) Make more of game-breaking mutations. We already have Nightstalker and Monstrous. There also could be some speed and metabolism affecting mutations; elemental themed (why not expand fire and ice facets?); magic oriented (like wild magic) etc.
2) These mutations will be a core for a pattern. Only one of them will appear on given character and will decide it’s playstyle. I suggest to make them appear on fixed level – six. Reasons: if you know that something is guaranteed to happen –> you’ll be morally ready for it –> less wine and less character dropping – you knew what you were doing. Also, game-breaking mutation, that appears on 20+ level is just stupid. And level six is not too high, to require you to achieve some steady build already, but not too low (remembering how Demonspawns gain levels) to encourage scumming. Also, six is a good number for a demonic thing.
3) Other mutations will be semi-random – with some variations for each selected pattern (core mutation). And obviously removing stupid stuff, like getting hooves with Nightstalker.

Patterns that I could think off:
- Nightstalker – obviously stealth oriented mutations or things, that at least don’t interfere with steals.
- Monstrous – go further, allow it to have tail, wings and fangs. No more body armor slot from moment mutation kicks in, all experience in armor skill up to moment redistributed to fighting/other skills and armor skill is removed, could have scales to compensate it. Also vote for no pesky antennae mutation in this pattern.
- Speed – both moving and metabolism. Mutations increase dodge and dexterity; reduce strength and health.
- Slow – moving and, probably, metabolism. Mutations increase armor, strength and health, maybe damage too; and ones that reduce dexterity and dodge, obviously.
- Overlord – don’t get any of “monster” mutations (that somehow change appearance), get everything else: PbD, PbP, Repulsion field, etc. Demonic Guardians could be exclusive for this pattern.
- Magic – could go two opposite ways – high power + low chance and low power + high chance. Get MP and intellect increasing, health reducing, utility mutations; probably, elemental facets too.
And so on.
Of course, it not fully preset. You can have same mutations in different patterns. And you’re not going to have every mutation from yours. But you’ll not get Black scales if you have Nightstalker or Speed pattern nor you’ll get Thin Skeletal Structure with Slow pattern.

The other suggestion I have is more experimental and less fitting. But there’s no harm in trying.
Devil Trigger (I’m a big fan of original DMC series) - an active skill, that temporary morphs character into a demon or, more like brings its true potential out. I know, that developers don’t like active skills too much, but still. Character could get this at some level (for example, 13 – another good number) and use it to transform according to his mutation pattern. For example, Nightstalker could get LoS reduced to 1, or even 0, invisibility for all duration, stealth boost and antennae-like monster sensing (if it’s possible). Monstrous could go Berserk, get some melee bonuses, AoE auxiliary attacks, etc. And I would love to see Sixfirhy-mode for Speed pattern, with some tune-ups for actual character speed and skipped turns in the beginning.
As a downside this skill should have severe aftereffects. You’ll be guaranteed to pass out for a few turns, get exhausted status and big portion of magic contamination (enough to make next controllable teleport dangerous), so it will give you great boost in power but can also put you in a grave danger.
That’s all I have. I’ll be happy to hear people’s opinion about it.

P.S. Sorry for bad English.

[Wahaha]

Did you see the thread where people suggested many "game-breaking" Ds mutations? (most of them being stupid and poorly thought out) It's very similar to this topic.
I would like to see more significant Ds mutations too. I think making the monstrous mutation set much more developed is a good idea. Currently it's just bad besides claws 3.

[sanka]

And obviously removing stupid stuff, like getting hooves with Nightstalker.

Why is it stupid? I think hooves does not affect stealth anymore.

[epsilon]

Did you see the thread where people suggested many "game-breaking" Ds mutations? (most of them being stupid and poorly thought out) It's very similar to this topic.
I would like to see more significant Ds mutations too. I think making the monstrous mutation set much more developed is a good idea. Currently it's just bad besides claws 3.

Those threads were my reason for writing this. And main idea is not to just make more such mutations, but to guarantee them for each playthrough.

Why is it stupid? I think hooves does not affect stealth anymore.

Don't know about trunk, but in .12 they do.

[JARG]

Demonspawn is one of my favorite races as well(my current top score being a DSAK), and I still remember that first time I discovered passive freeze and watched bees melt against me. Your ideas are interesting...

but I have some initial concerns:
-the mutations kit-like("patterns") and predictable by a certain level is reminiscent of draconians. //granted 6 instead of 7)
-Making some mutations exclusive with others which don't occupy the same mutation slot reduces randomization and options, not increases it. (ex. black scales w/ nightstalker)
-what's the point of "semi-random" ? It sounds like it might become something where you have 4 main "patterns" and then minor variations based on certain design preferences (this would lower the combinations significantly)
-Does this really improve the species options/ is it beneficial to DS? Which species would I just want to roll the dice and see what shows up?

I'm interested in the idea of "game breaking" mutations though. So you're suggesting that there's more times the character feels directed in a certain way unavoidably? (not necessarily a bad thing, just asking)

Fleshing out the elemental aspects is interesting. Personally, I like to imagine the demon which spawned the character, so I'd love to see more flavor in that regard. It best comes across in physical form(body/Tier 1 facets best convey it imo) I'd like to see tentacles, or gelatinous body(any resemblance to octopode might be coincidental) Running around with tentacles and a beak would certainly make me feel monstrous. However, there's admittedly a whole side to demons which is intangible and magic...

I'm entirely for demonspawn getting more attention(not that I think they're bad, they just have room for expansion), I'm not sure if it requires anything quite so dramatic as a "remake" though.

[BlackSheep]

Hooves' affect on stealth was removed years back and re-added in 2011. It's still a factor but the impact is so minor as to make no difference. (e.g. Nightstalker 1 gives +40 stealth, hooves gives -5 + 5*mutLevel if you're not flying and not wearing boots)

Some new mutations would be interesting, but the idea of mutation packages doesn't sound very good. Instead of a random experience each game, you'll get the same few sets over and over. Instead of quitting because of Nightstalker, people will be quitting because they got a batch of magic mutations their heavy armor berserker will never use.

[epsilon]

JARG,
I too do think, that there is some parallels with Draconians, however - this is much larger scale of changes. Instead of one magic school focusing you get forced into new build. Well, I thought about core mutations changing aptitudes (like higher Fighting aptitude for Monstrous), but this is too Draconian.
About being beneficial - not sure about it, but it'll be more balanced. And probably it will be very good, if you'll not try to oppose your core mutation build.
BlackSheep,
What I want is to change peoples idea of Demonspawns. This specie wasn't meant to be played like: "Ah, don't need this mutation, I quit!". The idea was to make specie, that requires and rewards adapting, not scumming. So, if you already have a complete character build prior to level six - it's only your fault for getting completely incompatible mutations. You were knowing what you were doing, and you did it wrong.
You still can try on and gamble on it - hope for some specific pattern from the very beginning, and you still will be rewarded heavily, if you guessed right. But to complain if you were wrong? It's just stupid.

About patterns. Yes, it'll be less random and so there'll be less variations. But you really think, that all this "variations" we have now are really give whole new "experience" for each playthrough? There's like 2 mutations that somehow actually affect gameplay, 2 that gives you hell of a boost and other is for, mainly, attributes. From them, there about third, you'll think: "yay!", third you'll: "fine", and third you'll "meh". So real "brand new experience" can come from first four mentioned (and they not multiplicative), while most of other just make you game more or less difficult.
So, yes, if you put it that way, I prefer "less various" patterns with 6~8 completely different play-styles instead of 2,5 highly randomized mutation sets.

[BlackSheep]

Do random mutation sets give a whole new experience every single time you play? No. Do they give it more often than would making demonspawn a different kind of draconian? Absolutely.

[epsilon]

Do random mutation sets give a whole new experience every single time you play? No. Do they give it more often than would making demonspawn a different kind of draconian? Absolutely.

I simply can't agree with equaling whole different gameplay and -2 +2 Apt thing just 'cause they both will be guaranteed at fixed level.

[BlackSheep]

My qualms are not with more game-changing mutations, but with the idea that the same effect should be achieved by creating a small number of mutation "sets." It diminishes the species to the point where players will say, "Oh I got the magic demonspawn this game. Last game I got the slow demonspawn." Basically if I have any idea what my next mutation as a Ds might be, the species is worse off.

Forcing players into one particular build doesn't seem desirable to me either.

[epsilon]

My qualms are not with more game-changing mutations, but with the idea that the same effect should be achieved by creating a small number of mutation "sets." It diminishes the species to the point where players will say, "Oh I got the magic demonspawn this game. Last game I got the slow demonspawn." Basically if I have any idea what my next mutation as a Ds might be, the species is worse off.

Forcing players into one particular build doesn't seem desirable to me either.

Didn't I said that mutations will still vary? If you got slow mutation, it doesn't mean you'll get nothing from others. You still can get some battle mutations, some magic affecting or universal ones.
Lets say we've got Slow mutation. This is core mutation and, I think it'll go best with current Robust mutation with some increased numbers. So, from now on you forbidden to get any other core mutations, so no Nightstalker, Monstrous, Demonic Guardians for you. You also forbidden to get any DEX+ or EV+ mutations. And than you'll get other mutations. Let's say it's five more. Two will come from your pattern pool, that guarantied to provide some synergy with core mutation, and three other is chosen from all not-forbidden mutations. If you have at least six mutations for every core, it means that you'll have some variations even on a perfect roll from your pattern's pool only. There'll be hell of a lot variations, randomizing and unique experience, if things work out. But this "patterns" will guarantee, that your core mutation won't be useless, and your character won't mutate in something unplayable.

But that's what demonspawns were meant for - force player to adapt. Not for waiting an awesome mutation set to appear.

[and into]

Didn't I said that mutations will still vary? If you got slow mutation, it doesn't mean you'll get nothing from others. You still can get some battle mutations, some magic affecting or universal ones.
Lets say we've got Slow mutation. This is core mutation and, I think it'll go best with current Robust mutation with some increased numbers. So, from now on you forbidden to get any other core mutations, so no Nightstalker, Monstrous, Demonic Guardians for you. You also forbidden to get any DEX+ or EV+ mutations. And than you'll get other mutations. Let's say it's five more. Two will come from your pattern pool, that guarantied to provide some synergy with core mutation, and three other is chosen from all not-forbidden mutations. If you have at least six mutations for every core, it means that you'll have some variations even on a perfect roll from your pattern's pool only. There'll be hell of a lot variations, randomizing and unique experience, if things work out. But this "patterns" will guarantee, that your core mutation won't be useless, and your character won't mutate in something unplayable.

But that's what demonspawns were meant for - force player to adapt. Not for waiting an awesome mutation set to appear.

Some Ds mutations are mutually exclusive, and perhaps others will have to be in the future as we expand possible mutations. But this should only be for logistical reasons. You can't get Ice and Fire mutations—that makes sense, and that's fine. Making mutation "sets," except for those logistic reasons, will actually diminishes the randomness, and actually produce a situation in which the character has to adapt *less*. It seems you understand why Ds is the way it is, it is all about adaptation (but in a different way than Draconian). But you think that this change will actually build off of that. What Blacksheep is saying (and I agree) is that, unwittingly, implementing what you suggest will actually push Ds away from its current, unique mechanism and more into Draconian territory. They'd still be different, but they'd be less different than they are now. This would be a shame, however, because Demonspawn are awesome. (I think we all agree there.)

[epsilon]

Some Ds mutations are mutually exclusive, and perhaps others will have to be in the future as we expand possible mutations. But this should only be for logistical reasons. You can't get Ice and Fire mutations—that makes sense, and that's fine. Making mutation "sets," except for those logistic reasons, will actually diminishes the randomness, and actually produce a situation in which the character has to adapt *less*. It seems you understand why Ds is the way it is, it is all about adaptation (but in a different way than Draconian). But you think that this change will actually build off of that. What Blacksheep is saying (and I agree) is that, unwittingly, implementing what you suggest will actually push Ds away from its current, unique mechanism and more into Draconian territory. They'd still be different, but they'd be less different than they are now. This would be a shame, however, because Demonspawn are awesome. (I think we all agree there.)

This could be true, if things used to happen the way you are saying. However, in reality, current Demonspawns requires almost no adaptation at all. How do you adapt to Passive Freeze or Demonic Guardians? By closing your eyes? Well, I know, that I exaggerate it too much, but current Demonspawn is more about being lucky and getting most powerful mutations. Yes it still fun, to get awesome character after bunch of wimps, but it isn't what Demonspawns were meant for. And the fact, that most people don't like current cardinal mutations, proves it.

[galehar]

However, in reality, current Demonspawns requires almost no adaptation at all.

But your proposal doesn't address that at all. You can introduce more game changing mutations and just use exclusions and tiers to balance them and avoid unplayable combinations.

current Demonspawn is more about being lucky and getting most powerful mutations.

It might be how you play it, but some players like to try to win every characters they start. For them, adapting to suboptimal mutations is what Ds is about, not waiting for the killer combo.

And the fact, that most people don't like current cardinal mutations, proves it.

What are cardinal mutations? And how do you know what most people think of them?

[epsilon]

But your proposal doesn't address that at all. You can introduce more game changing mutations and just use exclusions and tiers to balance them and avoid unplayable combinations.

Erm, sorry, but what it address then? The very reason I suggested a fixed level for core mutation is just attempt to make it more balanced. If everyone is so fixed on it and can't see anything except "Omg, another draconian clone!" - go ahead and make level vary. Problem is if you get this mutation too early - there'll be no adaptation, if too late - no satisfaction from run (cause you'll actually get your character ruined).
Current mutations aren't balanced at all. You can get your very first mutation on level 7 and it can be a gorgeous antennae. You'll get second level of it on level 9 as your second mutation, if you'll survive somehow.
Mutations require level control and balancing. But, if you can introduce more game changing mutations and actually balance them for working fine with each other, not provoking scumming and not ruining your character by appearing somewhere near level 15 - I'll be freaking happy!

It might be how you play it, but some players like to try to win every characters they start. For them, adapting to suboptimal mutations is what Ds is about, not waiting for the killer combo.

Actually, I'm usually not. At least I try not to.

What are cardinal mutations? And how do you know what most people think of them?

Already mentioned Nightstalker and Monstrous. Mainly, by reading forums. If I wrong, and people love them, well - sorry, ya all, my mistake. I'll try not to make this one anymore.

[irony]I wish I'd said "Appear somewhere between 5 and 8 levels"[/irony] -_-

[and into]

Current mutations aren't balanced at all. You can get your very first mutation on level 7 and it can be a gorgeous antennae. You'll get second level of it on level 9 as your second mutation, if you'll survive somehow.
Mutations require level control and balancing. But, if you can introduce more game changing mutations and actually balance them for working fine with each other, not provoking scumming and not ruining your character by appearing somewhere near level 15 - I'll be freaking happy!

Balanced is not the same thing as predictability or non-randomness. Some non-predictability, within certain reasonable parameters, actually helps game balance by removing the need for spoilers (for one thing). Nightstalker in particular (monstrous to a lesser extent) is a strong mutation in terms of power, and in addition it is well designed, in that, if you really want to take advantage of it, you often find yourself moving in a slightly different way, playing differently, etc.

Getting your mutations late may make it *harder* to survive as Ds, but its not like they are such a weak species that they require those mutations to survive. That's part of the risk taking Ds. Also it is actually *easier* to make use of a wider variety of mutation types as one gets later in the game. In general, your optimal training regiment up until at least lair is pretty set. Certain items can bump it one way or the other, of course, but it is pretty clear how things should go.

Getting a mutation early that is strong is very helpful for obvious reasons. But later in the game you have seen more, and found more, and so if a mutation comes along that isn't perfectly ideal for your current play-style, you can then actually meaningfully reassess everything you have. And you should be well enough established that you can divert some experience accordingly, if you think it is worth it. If not, just enjoy whatever marginal benefits the mutation may provide and keep on trucking. An early mutation that isn't suited for your starting class will still give some benefits, even if you can't fully take advantage of it, and you get to keep that mutation in mind as you develop (just make sure you establish your character's core skills before branching out).

So it seems to me that randomness in the mutations, to the greatest degree that can be achieved without creating logistical problems or conflicts, is ideal. On the whole, it presents the greatest range of interesting possibilities in terms of your game experience. Ds would be a more superficial, less interesting species if this randomness was significantly curtailed.

[JARG]

and_into makes a lot of sense, but the randomness is a major part of the appeal. The point is that by making it predictable in any way, you take away part of the challenge and fun. Already I can tell if I get hooves 1, I won't be getting talons. And if I get Powered by pain and powered by death; that's it, no more tier 2 facets. Sometimes its disappointing to know there are no more surprises, and your proposal sounds like it would reduce them(the surprises/randomness) even further. (Personal note: I've never seen the DS species as necessarily requiring drastic adaptation or "game changing" mutations, but then, that's because nightstalker and monstrous aren't common //and working within those constraints is part of the appeal)

Is there any reason not just to propose a new species of demon? I like that the demonspawn is the wanderer of the species selections, sometimes you get something cool, sometimes its junk, but you never know. (and I definately wouldn't mind seeing more daemonkin)