Proposal: Gigantism Mutation

[Klown]

This proposal is another mutation(s) possible through potions of mutation, and such.

Gigantism: Grows your character to the next size up, with all pros & cons of the new size. Adds +3 STR, -3 DEX. Those at max size simply get the stat changes added. Gigantism 2 gives +6 STR, -6 DEX, and makes the character slightly slower. Gigantism 3 gives +9 STR, -9 DEX, and makes the character much slower.

Dwarfism: Shrinks your character to the next size down, with all pros & cons of the new size. Adds -3 STR, +3 DEX. Those at min size simply get the stat changes added. Dwarfism 2 gives -6 STR, +6 DEX, and makes the character slightly faster. Dwarfism 3 gives -9 STR, +9 DEX, and makes the character much faster.

http://crawl.chaosforge.org/Size#Player_Sizes

[XuaXua]

Isn't there a demonspawn thread about this?

[Azrael]

I would add a health boost as well, since it doesn't make any sense for someone 1200 pounds to have the same HP as anyone else.

[jejorda2]

To make this make sense, we probably need to come up with consistent bonuses for sizes and give all current races a size mutation. Then the mutation can just move you up or down a level, like regeneration or hunger mutations. And it would make size spells or cards make sense.

It's not easy to account for everything, though, to put it mildly.

[spudwalt]

I'm not sure about giving things +/- 9 to their stats... A deep elf with dwarfism 3 would really take it in the shorts.

Would those with gigantism be able to use giant weapons? It'd be fun to have something wielding a giant spiked club that didn't have defenses that were crap (though I guess the Formicid thread already kinda provides an option for that).

[Klown]

Would those with gigantism be able to use giant weapons?

Yes! 'All pros & cons'
The idea came because I wanted my Minotaur to be able to wield a Giant Spiked Club.

[Lafaros]

I don't like the idea of suddenly being unable to use my armour, though, unless it is a dragon armour. Plate armour is usually excellent but you'd be kicked out of using it entirely with this, which sounds more annoying than it is cool to use the giant spiked club. What if you had enchanted a plate armor up to max but got this mutation? Sounds like it would be worse than deformed body. And the heavy hit to EV would also make it pretty hard to compensate. I don't want a character I play to have a random chance of turning into more-or-less an Ogre due to mutation.

[XuaXua]

I don't want a character I play to have a random chance of turning into more-or-less an Ogre due to mutation.

Which is pretty much why the Titan demonspawn mutation thread I mentioned in the second post is more acceptable. If you are a demonspawn, you expect to have crap happen to you which will negate abilities. In said thread, there are proposals to alter from Titan-sized (Pan/Hell Lord) to Imp.

I would recommend a moderator or developer merge this thread into that one.

[Klown]

Mutations are avoidable usually. :3

[XuaXua]

Mutations are avoidable usually. :3

True, but Gigantism is like having Unfitting armour plus talons and claws without the benefits of talons and claws.

[Lafaros]

Mutations are avoidable usually. :3

I guess I just can't really see the point of this... If you do this to a Minotaur, it's not really a Minotaur anymore, it's an Ogre with slightly better defensive aptitudes but still bad defenses because of the large size. You could just play an Ogre. If this is just to be annoying to the player and render equipment unusable, then it seems like a bad addition overall. Deformed Body hurts your armor, but this seems like too much of a drawback.

[and into]

One thing to keep in mind is that actually getting three levels of a random mutation is exceedingly rare. Playing mutation roulette (which is a bad idea usually but whatever) or Jivya worship means that it can show up, but even then it is unlikely. If this were implemented as a random mutation players would occasionally see level one, very rarely see level two, and almost never see level 3. Since it seems like the major effects would have to be at level 3 (like wielding GSC), for most players their experience of this mutation would just be a triply powerful version of the "Your muscles are strong, but stiff" (or flexible-but-weak) mutation.

So, if you'll pardon a redirection, I'd offer a more fleshed out modification of the proposal that I think someone suggested before: Implement Dwarfism and Gigantism as a line of Demonspawn-specific mutations.

(There's a proposal for "Titan" mutation for DS in another thread, perhaps these should be merged?)

Given that DS mutations are supposed to be (on the whole) a net positive, and can be quite powerful, I'd suggest the following Dwarfism / Gigantism facets for DS mutations. If implemented, this would also have the benefit of replacing a powerful but uninteresting, in my view, DS mutation (+ % HP).

Dwarfism (3 stages) — Tier 3 facet (Maybe tier 2 for this one?)
Note: Perhaps this should be mutually exclusive to nightcrawler mutation? (Some facets already operate with mutual exclusivity to others)
Stage 1: Small boost to dex, malus to strength | small bonus to stealth
Stage 2: Another small boost to dex, malus to strength | considerable bonus to stealth | bonus to EV proportional to dodging
Stage 3: A final boost to dex, malus to strength | good bonus to stealth and EV proportional to skill investment | 10% *fewer* HP | faster movement speed (less than centaur, more than average)


Gigantism (3 stages) — Tier 3 facet (almost certainly tier 3, I think)
Note: *replaces* the 10/20/30 % bonus to health facet (because while that facet is very good, it is also very boring IMO)
1.) Small boost to strength, malus to dex | small malus to stealth | +10% HP
2.) Another boost to strength, malus to dex | lose a bit more stealth | small malus to dodging| shield penalty mitigated by +1 | +20% HP
3.) Another boost to strength, malus to dex | moderate malus to stealth | moderate malus to dodging | shield penalty mitigated by +2 | +30% HP | can wield giant clubs and giant spiked clubs.

Each offers benefits of some of the smaller races or larger races, without being as extreme or as restrictive as Spriggans or Ogres. Each line has very powerful effects, but with some drawbacks, and besides the DS mutations are supposed to make you more powerful.

A well-designed DS mutation facet, in my view, both 1.) provides on the whole a net positive; 2.) doesn't block any paths, but may make some paths more difficult. The straight-up + HP % facet, while powerful, fails this design criterion IMO. I think Dwarfism/Gigantism as possible DS facets better fulfill the Demonspawn design philosophy. On the whole they provide more positives than negatives, but definitely nudge the player in a certain direction (without *making* that direction necessary, or cutting out other possibilities). A Giant DS can still be a dodge-based stabber, and will enjoy the extra HP. A Dwarf DS can still be a fighter, as the small malus to HP and moderate malus to strength will be compensated for by the movement speed.

At the same time, nothing is definitively cut off. The Dwarf DS can still wield two-handers, for instance. The Giant DS can wield GSC, but doesn't *have* to, or he can enjoy a bonus to shields (but isn't *blocked* from wearing bucklers). This is important for a DS mutation facet, I think.

Thoughts?

EDIT: It occurs to me that since the gigantism facet in particular might drastically alter how you want to raise your skills, perhaps if implemented either or both of these facets would be guaranteed, if rolled, to spring in the first 6 (or 7?) character levels? (When the next stages come in, however, would be up to chance of course.) Perhaps at stage 2 (rather than 3) of gigantism, Trog and Okie would realize that their avatar is... growing at an alarming rate, and thus consider your character an Ogre for the purposes of *weapon* gifts?

DOUBLE EDIT: I don't like that gigantism would step on the toes of the unique item choices of Ogres and Trolls... On the other hand, getting those huge weapons online is a major investment, particularly with a -1 aptitude, and it is not like you'd ever be *guaranteed* to get that facet when you choose demonspawn. Gigantism should still not allow large rocks to be thrown, IMO (so Ogres/Trolls would have something completely unique still.) If there is still too much toes-stepping, gigantism could just give a bonus to all two-handed weapons, but still disallow the (almost) giant DS from using large rocks *and* giant clubs or GSC.

[dpeg]

and_into: This is awesome (I came up with the concept of tiered DS mutations and facets, so I hope my opinion carries some weight). Thanks for the thorough elaboration. These should certainly go into the game, in my opinion. Feedback is certainly welcome but I am convinced.

[XuaXua]

I'm thinking "and into" has me blocked or doesn't know how to quote or something because viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9149 , like 2 hours earlier.

[and into]

I'm thinking "and into" has me blocked or doesn't know how to quote or something because viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9149 , like 2 hours earlier.

Sorry! No, I don't have you blocked, I just didn't see that post. I referenced the other thread in my post because I had perused it earlier, and that got me thinking in the direction you were headed as well. But I hadn't seen your latest post, otherwise I would have proposed this in that thread, in response to your idea. Last I saw, in the other thread the idea being discussed was a four-tiered facet ending with a huge Ds with a special Pan-Lord-sized tile and something like double HP, which sounds fun but not like something that will realistically be implemented. So I felt this thread was a better place to put in my proposal.

Looking at it now, the basic ideas are similar, but your proposal is much more extreme in terms of the benefits and drawbacks, which I think goes against what Ds mutations are meant to do. It shouldn't shoehorn you absolutely into one style of play when you hit a certain facet.

[Amnesiac]

I think GSC should still be only usable by ogres and troll. I'd rather let giant Ds use large rocks, since throwing isn't so strong except for needles.

[and into]

I think GSC should still be only usable by ogres and troll. I'd rather let giant Ds use large rocks, since throwing isn't so strong except for needles.

Throwing large rocks is quite strong, but yes, if it does cross over too much into ogre and troll territory, only giant weapon use or only large rock use (but a bonus to two-handed weapon use) might be in order. In any case I'm not actually as worried about over-poweredness, actually, so much as making something that generally applies to Ogre and Trolls only, sometimes apply to Ds. In my opinion, not being able to control what mutations you get as a Ds could make this OK, as it is not like you could just say, "I want to swing a GSC, but Ogres and Trolls suck, and I don't like them, so I'm gonna go Ds." Ogres and Trolls would remain the only species that can definitely use the largest weapons.

[Amnesiac]

I just don't like the idea of making something unique less so. It's not like not being able to wield a GSC will kill somebody, but biasing a character towards maces so that he has a chance to wield the strongest two-handed weapon is bad, imo, also if he will be able to do it in the end this will make Ogres cry.

[XuaXua]

I'm thinking "and into" has me blocked or doesn't know how to quote or something because viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9149 , like 2 hours earlier.

Sorry! No, I don't have you blocked, I just didn't see that post. {...}
It shouldn't shoehorn you absolutely into one style of play when you hit a certain facet.

I did mention a couple things up above earlier, too.

Anyway, the Imp / Titan mutation isn't stopping you from using spells, so the shoehorn isn't necessarily there, and nothing is stopping the core skills from being trained.

[MoogleDan]

This threat seems to be ignoring the experimental formicid branch; if they wind up getting implemented, that'll already be crashing the GSC party. One thing I do really like about them is the 2H as 1H adaptation; while it might be a bit overpowered, how would Gigantism specifically of the arms sound as a body-facet mutation? It could still make gloves unwearable (ogre mitts don't fit in gloves after all), it'd be less powerful than claws, it'd make bucklers unusable, but at rank 3 it would allow 2H weapons to be used as 1H.

Rank 1: +2 STR, +1 UC damage, no bucklers. ("Your arms are disproportionately large compared to your body.")
Rank 2: +3 STR, +2 UC damage, no bucklers, size bonus to shields and large shields. ("Your arms are freakishly huge.")
Rank 3: +4 STR, +3 UC damage, no bucklers, size bonus to shields and large shields, 2H weapons may be used as 1H. ("Your mammoth arms are so large they drag on the floor as you walk.")

With demonspawn aptitudes it would still take a lot of experience to train these weapons to proficient, especially if you're diverting XP into Shields, so it'd be easy to skill up wrong once you see where it's going. But mainly I just like the mental image of gorilla demons.

[and into]

I did mention a couple things up above earlier, too.

Ah. Yeah, you did. I don't have any excuses, that is just negligence on my part. I didn't read the thread carefully enough before going off with my proposal, my apologies again.

Anyway, the Imp / Titan mutation isn't stopping you from using spells, so the shoehorn isn't necessarily there, and nothing is stopping the core skills from being trained

But it does shoe-horn you into not being able to use certain types of weapons, etc., and some of the benefits/drawbacks are very extreme. Of course Ds mutations can be powerful, and should be, but I think wielding two handed weapons in one hand, having large shields count as bucklers, and the like is really way over the top. I'm not a developer though, so that is Just One Man's Opinion (TM).

This threat seems to be ignoring the experimental formicid branch; if they wind up getting implemented, that'll already be crashing the GSC party. One thing I do really like about them is the 2H as 1H adaptation; while it might be a bit overpowered, how would Gigantism specifically of the arms sound as a body-facet mutation? It could still make gloves unwearable (ogre mitts don't fit in gloves after all), it'd be less powerful than claws, it'd make bucklers unusable, but at rank 3 it would allow 2H weapons to be used as 1H.

Rank 1: +2 STR, +1 UC damage, no bucklers. ("Your arms are disproportionately large compared to your body.")
Rank 2: +3 STR, +2 UC damage, no bucklers, size bonus to shields and large shields. ("Your arms are freakishly huge.")
Rank 3: +4 STR, +3 UC damage, no bucklers, size bonus to shields and large shields, 2H weapons may be used as 1H. ("Your mammoth arms are so large they drag on the floor as you walk.")

With demonspawn aptitudes it would still take a lot of experience to train these weapons to proficient, especially if you're diverting XP into Shields, so it'd be easy to skill up wrong once you see where it's going. But mainly I just like the mental image of gorilla demons.

I like the mental image of gorilla demons as much as the next guy, but I see several problems. For one, it further nullifies different weapon strategies. You get your shield and your 2-handed weapon. Sure, shields are underpowered in certain ways, but one-hander and shield can sometimes be a better option. With this mutation you have one single, unambiguous best choice. Also, this facet doesn't have any real trade-offs at all. Not all Ds facets do, granted, but I think the most interesting ones do and new ones should strive to have some trade-off even though the net effect should definitely be positive. No buckler for first rank is an incredibly minor drawback considering what you get, and you even have a bonus to shields and large shields in the next rank. Finally, this wouldn't remove the boring +10/20/30 % HP facet (which was also part of the rationale of my proposal).

I haven't been following the Formicids thread too closely, but as I recall there were things like permanent stasis on this species, which could potentially balance out something like 2-hander becoming 1-hand. The slightly less than average aptitudes of the Ds do not even *begin* to balance out something like this, and it is not hard to get two-handers going on Ds at all really.

Battleaxes in one hand could work out for the new formicid species, it is an interesting idea, but I can't see it as a Ds mutation. Why would we want to replicate a very unique feature from another (new) species as a Ds mutation, anyway? As I said in the earlier post, I myself am unsure as to whether giant Ds's wielding GSC or giant clubs stepped on Ogres and Trolls territory too much. That's arguable, I think, but I empathize with Amnesiac's concerns in that regard, which is why I suggested some sort of bonus to 2-handed weapons, but still unable to wield GSC or giant club, as a possibility. Lifting another species' idiosyncracy wholesale as a Ds facet, though, would be very bad I think.

[MoogleDan]

I figured formicids (much like djinn) were seen as a giant pile of odd new features that may or may not make it to a stable version, and yanking one of their features isn't exactly copying every trick in their book (self-shafting is every bit as out-there as 2H-as-1H). But yes, it is a bit overpowered. Drop all the shield effects perhaps (you're still working with the same body-type after all) and reduce the STR to +0, +1, and +2, and you still wind up with the first 2-tiers being worse than the other body-facet mutations and a late-game third tier that, yes, is very solid. But as for a thematic adjustment to the boring Robustness option, how about an uncontrolled, cancerous vitality theme? Keep the powerful HP boost, add rN+ (you course with furiously powerful vitality), but add either an MR malus or vulnerability to poison? That'd have a much more interesting description than simply "You feel robust," and it'd help tone down the unambiguously solid power level of the mutation. Also, demonspawn even have a Necromancy aptitude that points them toward a perfectly effective solution for the vulnerability (Necromutation), though that requires serious effort to make available.

[Lasty]

Being large shouldn't reduce speed. If anything, it should make you faster, since now your legs are longer, and a single stride will take your further. I assume people are thinking that Spriggans are faster because they're small, but the correct interpretation is that Spriggans are fast because they're magical.

Also, if either of these mutations makes you slow and the other makes you fast, then the slow one is going to be one of the worst mutations you can get, and the fast one is going to be one of the best.

[and into]

Being large shouldn't reduce speed. If anything, it should make you faster, since now your legs are longer, and a single stride will take your further. I assume people are thinking that Spriggans are faster because they're small, but the correct interpretation is that Spriggans are fast because they're magical.

Also, if either of these mutations makes you slow and the other makes you fast, then the slow one is going to be one of the worst mutations you can get, and the fast one is going to be one of the best.

I think only the original post mentioned slow movement, which is already a mutation, and is completely game-changing (in terms of really hurting your character, obviously), so I agree we don't need another mutation that makes you slow. Short of some sort of ridiculous bonus, anything tacked on to the slow movement will be ignored, and the mutation would just be thought of as, "The OTHER slow movement mutation."

Good point about speed and spriggans, we can name the facet something else to address that. You are right that if the Ds were just to become smaller, it would mean being slower, not faster, and vice-versa for being giant.

As for a thematic adjustment to the boring Robustness option, how about an uncontrolled, cancerous vitality theme? Keep the powerful HP boost, add rN+ (you course with furiously powerful vitality), but add either an MR malus or vulnerability to poison? That'd have a much more interesting description than simply "You feel robust," and it'd help tone down the unambiguously solid power level of the mutation. Also, demonspawn even have a Necromancy aptitude that points them toward a perfectly effective solution for the vulnerability (Necromutation), though that requires serious effort to make available.

Again, I don't see that as fitting in with the rationale of the Ds though. Poison vulnerability and/or MR vulnerability just means you equip different stuff if you can, it doesn't really alter how you want to play your game. I guess you're more careful around certain enemies. But a high HP low MR dude is just going to pile on MR if he has it, if not he's going to just make due. I think this is why, for instance, the fire facet doesn't give cold vulnerability, and vice versa, for Ds. In most cases by the time you get that facet, it would just mean putting on a different ring or piece of armour. It would just feel like a weird liability to be made up for. The way MR works anyway, as an all-or-nothing thing, would just make that really frustrating too. If you got the MR malus early, no amount of +HP% is going to save you from banishment or a bad paralyze hit from an orc sorcerer. And having Necromutation be a perfect solution to the drawbacks provided by a facet is also bad IMO.

Drawbacks should be designed to inspire creative solutions, not like they are keyholes and you just need to plug in the right spell or piece of equipment to set things right. This is why slow movement, while debilitating, is a very *interesting* drawback, for instance. It completely changes how you play and makes you approach the game differently. (Not that I think slow movement should be part of any Ds facet, but just drawing a comparison to Nagas, and the sort of constraint that can be interesting.)

[MoogleDan]

Poison vulnerability and/or MR vulnerability just means you equip different stuff if you can

In the case of the poison vulnerability, would that be the case? Innate poison vulnerability from, say, Spider Form, can only be neutralized with gear; you can't actually achieve rPois in that case (not sure if the counterbalancing rPois "You feel healthy," mutation would change that, but that's an unlikely find), no matter how many items you pile on.

The MR- suggestion I pretty much regretted as soon as I posted it, however

[MoogleDan]

And by that same logic, any of the changed forms (except for Spider Form) would negate that penalty... That's a bit less demanding than a level 8 Necro/Tmut spell.

[dpeg]

This is a follow-up to and_into's DS mutation proposals. (And yes, this thread should be split, but I cannot do it.)

I mentioned and_into's ideas on ##crawl-dev, and a lively hour later, we arrived at the following two proposals:

Nimble DS facet:
Level 1: small size [*]
Level 2: add -2 movement delay, -10% HP
Level 3: another -1 movement delay

Hulk DS facet (replaces the tier 3 Robustness facet):
Level 1: Str+2, large size [*], can throw large rocks
Level 2: Str+4, +10% HP
Level 3: Str+6, +20% HP (total)

[*] In both cases, "size" refers to Dodging, Shields, carrying capacity, constrictionability, trampleability.
The ability to throw large rocks is mostly flavour; if the mutation is too busy with it, it could go although I like it a lot. Use of giant clubs is out of the question -- too strong!

[DracheReborn]

This is a follow-up to and_into's DS mutation proposals. (And yes, this thread should be split, but I cannot do it.)

I mentioned and_into's ideas on ##crawl-dev, and a lively hour later, we arrived at the following two proposals:

Nimble DS facet:
Level 1: small size [*]
Level 2: add -2 movement delay, -10% HP
Level 3: another -1 movement delay

Hulk DS facet (replaces the tier 3 Robustness facet):
Level 1: Str+2, large size [*], can throw large rocks
Level 2: Str+4, +10% HP
Level 3: Str+6, +20% HP (total)

[*] In both cases, "size" refers to Dodging, Shields, carrying capacity, constrictionability, trampleability.
The ability to throw large rocks is mostly flavour; if the mutation is too busy with it, it could go although I like it a lot. Use of giant clubs is out of the question -- too strong!

Nice! Does either facet include armour or body slot penalties?

Also any thoughts on Xuaxua's suggestion to flavour the mutations as "fiend size" and "imp size" respectively? Would be thematic, I think.

[neil]

Nice! Does either facet include armour or body slot penalties?

Also any thoughts on Xuaxua's suggestion to flavour the mutations as "fiend size" and "imp size" respectively? Would be thematic, I think.

There is a partial implementation in branch nimble-hulk. It doesn't affect usable armour/weapons at all; this is done the same way it is already done for centaurs and nagas (who are Large but have a Medium "torso size"). So you get the EV penalties (including shields), stealth, constrictability, and so on of your new size, but still have the equipment restrictions of your original size (I didn't test throwing nets for small DS, though).

Not sure about the "size" in the name, particularly because the equipment restrictions are the most noticeable part of size and we don't want to mislead players. OTOH the current descriptions (A screen) mention size because I couldn't come up with something better. That should be reconciled.

[dpeg]

neil: Many thanks, what a nice surprise!

I do think that thin skeletal structure should stay, just make it incompatible with the dwarf mutation.

Regarding names: I actually like referencing imps and fiends but I agree we should avoid the word "size". What about: "You are nimble like an imp." and "You are a hulk, like a fiend."?

[Mankeli]

Regarding names: I actually like referencing imps and fiends but I agree we should avoid the word "size". What about: "You are nimble like an imp." and "You are a hulk, like a fiend."?

Nice! But is it good to have a reference to a monster type (fiend) that in most crawl games never generates? Or is it assumes that it's common knowledge or something?

[Lasty]

Giant clubs are too strong but -3 move delay isn't? Seems to me like the small facet is now the best one by a lot.

Because being small and being fast don't necessarily go together, I'd much rather see the small size facet do something different and more interesting (without being as obviously amazingly strong):

* add an invisibility or pseudo-invisibility ability (e.g. monsters that are more than 5 tiles from the player have the "blind" status, if they are susceptible to it), or
* add reflexive blink, an ability which gives a small extra chance to dodge any non-torment attack, but when it succeeds blinks the character one tile away from the source of the attack that was dodged, or
* Player can walk through walls, but each successive turn spent in a wall deals increasing damage based on the distance the player is from a non-wall tile (i.e. the deeper into the wall one goes, the more it hurts), or
* sixfery-like actions in which the player is permanently hasted (or sped up to some degree 1.2x?), but while they are moving enemies save up their turns, and after every ~3 turns the player takes, all monsters spend all their saved up turns at once.

I suppose the large mutation is basically the same issue, but without being actually good -- it makes using certain shields easier, prevents wearing body armor, lowers EV, and then just gives a bunch of str and robustness mutations. Surely there are more interesting/game-altering things being large can do as well, such as:
* All melee attacks have reach, or
* Add a constriction-like "grab/grapple/choke" ability to bare-handed attacks, or
* Add an activated ability that gives melee attacks a chance to knock the target back.
* Make the player blob-like, and give them a moderate chance to "divide" into two medium-sized creatures when struck by powerful blows. The player copy would be a durable summon that eventually merges back into the player, but which would impose significant max-hp loss on the player if it dies; the player would regenerate max-hp loss from this ability as he/she gains experience.

Obviously, this is all just spitballing, but I would really hate to add new "keystone" abilities to demonspawn that just mimic single (over-weak/over-powerful) aspects of another race.

[Galefury]

Giant clubs are too strong but -3 move delay isn't? Seems to me like the small facet is now the best one by a lot.

This. Being small is already very good, especially when the usual equipment restrictions don't apply. -3 move delay on top of that is just crazy.

[dpeg]

Galefury: How much HP reduction is fair, in your opinion?

[Galefury]

Well, Spriggans get -3 move delay and are tiny, but suffer from huge equipment restrictions, and they get -30% HP, but they also have a lot of other stuff going on. So -20% would probably be more fair. It's probably better to ask a more experienced player.

[Klown]

GSC loses badly in accuracy & required maces & flails skill needed to swing it like a man. Not to mention other weapons in that category, you can usually find one with a good brand & enchantments that allow it to surpass GSC's power as well. GSC's are almost always +0 +0 when you grab them off ogres.

[Siegurt]

you can usually find one with a good brand & enchantments that allow it to surpass GSC's power as well.

For comparison at 22 fighting and 27 m&F a +4 +4 GSC of crushing beats a +9 +9 Great mace of flaming handily and a +4 +4 giant club of crushing beats it slightly, for the same level of skill required to get to min delay. (Also a GSC only takes 2 more points of mace skill to get to min delay than a great mace or giant club)

[ackack]

Well, Spriggans get -4 move delay and are tiny, but suffer from huge equipment restrictions, and they get -30% HP, but they also have a lot of other stuff going on.

Fixed the number.

-10% hp seems pretty reasonable to me. Practically, small seems like it penalizes shield users and provides an EV buff to others provided they have trained dodging. Not all Ds will have invested heavily in dodging, and although certainly you could tilt that way if you knew this was coming (which is pretty spoilery, which people usually seem to dislike), direct comparison to spriggans fails here because of the 5 levels of aptitude difference. The speed boost is nice, but again is not as strong as spriggan intrinsic speed and is less significant because it doesn't arrive until later, when you might already have useful ways of increasing your speed or dealing with threats.

Re; the GSC being too strong, the marginal increase in power over a nice great mace probably corresponds to something like -3, +8 ring of slaying. Compare to augmentation, which is like +12 slaying and 120% raw spellpower buff at top tier, regardless of what you've trained (because getting any use out of the GSC requires having trained M+F, which again would be a pretty spoilery thing to do.) I think the +20% hp is doing way more of the heavy lifting in terms of quality of the mutation.

[and into]

Minus 3 move delay may be too much, in my original proposal I was thinking more like minus 1, *perhaps* -2. The boost can kick in at stage 2 rather than 3 if it is just minus 1, so you get it a bit earlier. A tier 3 facet should be powerful but I think that -3 would be too powerful.

I'm happy with any of the numbers being tweaked, I didn't even give exact numbers for most of the stuff. But I wouldn't want a bunch of other stuff tacked on to either mutation facet, I think they give clear bonuses and drawbacks without being too extreme, I feel that things like invisibility and whatnot would actually diminish from the mutation.

Lasty: The Ds mutation gigantism that I proposed didn't involve *any* item restrictions for large or high. The only question I think is 1.) how much speed bonus for nimble mutation facet; 2.) can gigantic mutation give access to large rocks and giant clubs.

EDIT: Actually, sorry Lasty, I read your post too quickly when I shot off my last post. There are some interesting ideas in there that I quite like, actually, I just don't think they are right for these two mutation facets. I think for large size mutation, +% HP is enough of a boon. Remember that used to be a tier 3 slot by itself, and was in terms of power was probably the best (certainly one of the best) facets. This just makes that facet a bit more interesting. We could give this or that quirk to large size as well, but something like constriction, even, would be OP in my opinion.

[XuaXua]

I think the giant mutation should give access to large rocks and giant clubs, but I think said items should have a strength requirement for usage, variably based on the size level of the mutation.

Yes, this could prevent weak Ogres from using them effectively.