Submerged monsters

[XuaXua]

Note to developers: Swamp (and Shoals) would be marginally less tedious if auto-attack approached submerged targets.

[Sporkman]

Note to developers: Swamp (and Shoals) would be marginally less tedious if auto-attack approached submerged targets.

Submersion in general feels rather annoying. You 'sense a disturbance nearby' but can't actually do anything about it until it surfaces, and also can't autoexplore (despite the fact that it's not currently a threat).

Also, why in the world can you stand on top of a submerged monster? That seems to violate the fact that two creatures can't stand in the same spot (player + monster or monster + monster). Note that I discovered this in wizmode, so that might have something to do with it, but I didn't teleport or blink.

[dpeg]

Sporkman: This is sort of known. I believe that submersion has a place in Crawl at least as a stabbing-like device for monsters: you cannot attack them from afar and have to deal with them when they're close, which is good. I don't think that submersion works well for fleeing purposes -- definitely not for many, lowly critters. It might be okay for outstanding, strong water denizens (I am thinking of kraken or so).

[nicolae]

Also, why in the world can you stand on top of a submerged monster? That seems to violate the fact that two creatures can't stand in the same spot (player + monster or monster + monster). Note that I discovered this in wizmode, so that might have something to do with it, but I didn't teleport or blink.

Two monsters can't stand in the same spot, but players and monsters can overlap just fine -- it's why Fedhasites can walk through plants.

[njvack]

Except you don't have to deal with them when they're close, because they won't ever get close because they're submerged.

Whaa? Some aquatic monsters can be totally avoided, but it's not like you can just avoid all the water in most games.

... can you?

[dpeg]

minmay: I don't understand what you're saying. Trying to parse your meaning.... Do you refer to monsters seen and submerging afterwards? This is not what I had in mind.

I'll go at in again: My proposal is to (a) restrict submerging of already known monsters to a very limited subset; and (b) have not-yet-seen aquatic creatures unsubmerge when you are close. The latter means that you cannot detect them until they're close (i.e. like stealth for monsters, or a bit like mimics). Which monsters to do that, and unsubmerging at what range, and with which chance are knows to tweak.
(a) is for removing tedium, and (b) is for making submerging a source of occasionally interesting tactical situations.

[galehar]

Note to developers: Swamp (and Shoals) would be marginally less tedious if auto-attack approached submerged targets.

Nice derailling. Thread split from Lair Branch Loot Balancing.

[XuaXua]

Note to developers: Swamp (and Shoals) would be marginally less tedious if auto-attack approached submerged targets.

Nice derailling. Thread split from Lair Branch Loot Balancing.

It was topical, in reference to the prior posts from others about Swamp/Shoals being boring / tedious. Who knew everyone else would run with it?
Anyway, thanks for not delegating it to Crazy Yiuf's corner.

[Sporkman]

Also, why in the world can you stand on top of a submerged monster? That seems to violate the fact that two creatures can't stand in the same spot (player + monster or monster + monster). Note that I discovered this in wizmode, so that might have something to do with it, but I didn't teleport or blink.

Two monsters can't stand in the same spot, but players and monsters can overlap just fine -- it's why Fedhasites can walk through plants.

It's kinda odd though, since submerged monsters are always hostile (I think... can charmed monsters submerge?). Also, considering you're for all practical purposes on top of them, you'd think that they'd immediately attack...

[dpeg]

I wonder why you guys keep talking about meta-issues rather than the submerging itself. There's a pretty specific proposal right here, and I'd rather see it dissected rather than talk about why galehar split it.

[BlackSheep]

The difficulty with forbidding monsters from submerging once they're revealed is that players can take one step away from the water, pull out a polearm and poke them to death without reprisal.

[dpeg]

BlackSheep: Yes, good point. Kiting at its best. It's an argument against water monsters as such, I think.

[some12fat2move]

Stand away from water. Throw dart over submerged thing so it unsubmerges. Damage it with something (conjuration, polearm, whatever). Rinse and repeat.

I'm not sure if the above method still works - I know I've done it before, but it's been a while since I've wanted to and maybe it got changed. I hope it's been changed, because it was really tedious and was a big waste of time because I could flawlessly kill it at range and yet had to go through the trouble of darting it out of submerge in order to so.

[Lasty]

I reiterate my view that all (or at least almost all) water monsters be given a way of interacting with players that aren't near water. Electric eels and lava snakes are fine as-is, and so would be Elemental Wellsprings if they weren't also super-irritating. We just have a lot of range-one-melee-only water monsters, and we need (at most) one of these. If we need one, it's just so that we can have a single non-threatening water monster that all players can defeat without effort (sort of like an aquatic butterfly).

If this were to happen, submerging wouldn't be necessary, though it could still be used to dodge clouds without making things particularly bad, I think.

[dpeg]

Lasty: Yeah, I see where you are coming from. There are some interesting mechanics for water monsters already (constriction, mesmerise, and Sirens' pulling, the snapping turtles have reaching on their own, but they can leave water if they want to).

[XuaXua]

What's wrong with just having TAB default to approach the nearest accessible submerged area if there's nowhere else to go, treat it like it's not submerged?

I mean, that would kill some tedium right off the bat and I suspect it's easier to implement than other alterations.

[njvack]

You can take one step away from the monster in question. I'm fairly certain that in most games it's possible for the player to MOVE. Yes, this still allows a submerged monster to be a threat if it kills you in one hit, but I'm fairly certain that's undesirable behaviour for other reasons.

OK yes, we're on the same page; you then then poke it to death with something ranged. Yes, that's something Crawl should prevent. Either they should be able to ranged-attack you right back or resubmerge if you're out of melee range.

But there's nothing inherent in aquatic or submerged monsters that means you don't need to deal with them ever; there's just a cheesy way to poke them without risk right now.

[XuaXua]

What's wrong with just having TAB default to approach the nearest accessible submerged area if there's nowhere else to go, treat it like it's not submerged?

I mean, that would kill some tedium right off the bat and I suspect it's easier to implement than other alterations.

Alternately, auto-travel should simply put a 1 space movement barrier around a known submergence if there are no other visible monsters, just like it does to walls in slime.

[njvack]

Hopefully, the terrain can be such that "never walk here again" isn't the super-obvious choice.

Not that I think swamp is the best layout evar, (though it is quite improved) but yes, it is sometimes hard to avoid moving adjacent to water (or plants, for that matter) there.

Eels (and even statues!) are fine threats when used sparingly and thoughtfully (I've never seen a salamander used as anything other than flavor). Yes, an eel in a lake in the middle of an open Lair level is both irritating and usually trivially avoidable. But if a vault gives you a reason to actually deal with it, that's fine.

So yeah. Monsters with movement restrictions warrant careful usage; they probably want to either be placed intentionally or in a layout designed to support them. And they should probably never be as common as orcs or giants or ogres or whatever. But the concept isn't fundamentally broken.