The Tavern

Allow me to begin by saying that, while I disagree with the decision, I can understand why Mountain Dwarfs were removed from the game. As a writer, I completely get the cutting of extraneous or useless detail, and Mountain Dwarfs were, unfortunately, functionally very similar to Minotaurs and Hill Orcs at the time of their removal. To clarify, I do not wish to see Mountain Dwarf (the species which was previously removed) put back in the Stone Soup, rather, I would like to see a creature which fills a similar mythological aesthetic added in their place.

Reasoning: Stone Soup is a game largely based on Randomness, Tactical Combat, and Strategic Dungeoneering, amidst all of this it is easy to forget that at it's roots, it is a Role Playing Game, in which the player assumes the role of a character and leads them through an adventure while guiding their development. In the Philosophy Section of the Manual itself there is reference to an emphasis on design decisions which allow a player to develop a familiar rapport with their character, and the fact of the matter is that many players *like* playing dwarves, not the Deep Dwarves, with all their eccentricity, but the image of dwarves we have come to appreciate from Fantasy Staples like Tolkien and RPG staples like D&D, that of short, stout, broad-shouldered bearded men waddling through combat in full plate-mail with an axe in hand, and possibly an ale in the other. If playing a "Mountain Dwarf", the stereotypical, puckish dwarf we know and love, allows players to enjoy the game more, then I see no reason they should be designed that character decision. Secondarily, it is the case that Stone Soup is a *game*, and as those of us who play games know (at least, this is my stance) the point is to have *fun*, many players enjoyed playing Mountain Dwarves, they thought they were fun, therefore, having Mountain Dwarves in the game made it more fun for some players; removing Mountain Dwarves from the game had no impact on actual gameplay other than to prevent those who *did* like to play them from playing them, it didn't make the game more fun for anyone else, just less fun for the dwarf-philes. But I'm bordering dangerously on entering into diatribe, and I know the dev's are not impressed by reasoning such as this, so allow me to propose an alternative to the standard issue Tolkien-Dwarf.

The Asgard Dwarf (Dvergar, in their own tongue), or the "Mountain Dwarf", so known for the conclaves they build on high mountaintops:
The Dvergar is similar in appearance to a short, stout man, with broad shoulders, square features, thick limbs, and long beards of mostly dark-colored hair. They have strong melee proficiencies (especially with Axes and Hammers), prefer to enter battle wearing heavy armors, and are relatively skilled with destructive Conjurations, and Air magic, owing to the proximity of their cities to the clouds. They are also well known for their proficiencies, and strong Evocation abilites, however, they make otherwise poor spellcasters. They do not sneak or stab well and, due to their hatred for the gods, eschew invocations to the point of almost complete exclusion. The Dvergars' loathing of the gods stems from an ancient conflict in which the most powerful Dvergar city states banded together and fought a war against the gods, they lost, their own dwarven deity was slain, and most of their cities were dashed from the mountaintops into complete oblivion.
Ideas to give the Dvergar distinguishing racial characteristics beyond simple proficiencies:
-Minor Poison/Lightning resistances
-Minor Penalty to AUT to move
-Level-Based Buffs for being Atheist:
-3/7/13'th-style-progression,
-Magic Resistance Buffs which increase slightly per level,
-Abjuration as an Ability,
-Bonuses to Damage versus "Outsiders" - Demons/Angels/Undead
-Deep-Dwarf style Item Recharging?
-Smithing - able to sacrifice items Nemelex-style to build up points to "craft" an item once a level/every couple of levels, as a scroll of Acquirment (available item categories would be limited, possibly based on the items sacrificed); results would be dependent on character level, and possibly the relevant item skill. (This is just a crazy idea)

Things the Dvergar/Asgard-/Mountain-Dwarf could fix that got the MD removed from the game in the first place:
-The Mountain Dwarf was a generic Fantasy Standby, based mostly on Tolkien and derivative works, the Dvergar goes further back, hopping over Tolkien and drawing from old Nordic roots, which gives it a mythological basis similar the Minotaur (based on Greek myth), as well as being distinctive in it's own right.
-Distinctive Character Option - The Demigod already does the Atheist thing, and can do virtually anything in the game with great proficiencies/stats, a Dvergar would provide the *option* to be Atheistic, and provide some positive feedback for that decision, but would fit into one or a few gameplay niches rather than being unilaterally competent.
-As a fighty-style race, the Dvergar would still be similar to the Minotaur, Hill Orc, or honestly any other race that does Punchy combat well, it's hard to make large distinctions in this area in respects that don't involve specific weapon proficiencies, but a race with a particular penchant for Axes (with 0.12.0's changes making Axes more distinctive weapons in general, this would be especially appealing) and to a lesser extent, blunt weapons, but low aptitudes in blades, and even penalties in Polearms (it's really hard for short dudes to wield pole-weapons) and bows, would be a suitably distinct sort of fighter from the Minotaur, who is essentially competent across the board, but not exceptional in any one respect (with mostly +2 proficiencies in all combat skills), while not imbalancing, due to restrictions in playstyle and equipment options. Additionally, proficiency in Conjuration/Air would give them a leg up on the Minotaur, and a focused casting niche to enjoy which is not dissimilar from the one possessed by Hill Orcs, but entirely based in Conjuration/Air, and so distinct enough to provide a reason to play both races (Kenku have a similar combination of the Air/Conuration aptitudes, but are generally competent [if not skilled] at most forms of spellcasting, which a Dvergar would not be). Lastly, the emphasis on Evocation combined with the penalty to Invocation provide this otherwise poor caster (in most respects) to overcome adversity in some specific situations with proper strategic accumulation and usage of resources, and is, again, distinct from the Hill Orc, who is quite skilled at Invocation, and mildly skilled at Evocation.

Final Words: I am not particularly *good* at Stone Soup, though I enjoy it a great deal, I cannot claim to have ever beaten it, nor do I suspect I shall at any point in the future (though that shall not stop me from playing, a lot), and so a great deal of this game is still a mystery to me. I am also not terribly skilled with the numbers of the game, the equations and many of the specifics of various effects/creatures/features still elude me, however, I do feel I have a solid grasp of the core of the game, and most importantly, I find it very *fun*, I think it would be *more* fun for many a player were there a suitably "Dwarven" race of dwarves (I myself played several Mountain Dwarf Crossbowman which I enjoyed a great deal), and having one in the game does not make it any *less* fun for any player which does not wish to play one (as they can simply refrain from playing them). Any help with this budding idea, constructive criticism, advice, or support is strongly welcomed, so thank you for reading.

Don't you think that may be a bit too much flavor and background for the species and very little interesting mechanics?

I don't agree with this for a few reasons. While it Crawl may borrow the systems of role playing games, I do not think players are fundementally motivated to play Crawl to role play.
First, I can't tell what you're talking about in the Philosophy Section of the Manual. I see three mentions of fluff and flavor, all of which state it's subordinance to gameplay:
Second, I have personally have never given any of my characters personality or tried to imagine what they were thinking, any more than I would consider the feeling of my king in chess as he willingly sacrifices his loyal subjects to gain an advantage over the enemy. I don't know how common that is.

Third, it is easy to see that Crawl lacks a strong sense of flavor, just from looking at other games. Even among roguelikes, so calculating that most give their interface exclusively in the form of text, Crawl is unusually cold. Nethack has jokes, plot quests, and Easter eggs. ADOM has an alignment system and mutually exclusive quests. TOME has fixed characters which keep the same personalities from game to game. The only other rougelikes with such little fluff are the original Rogue and Brogue, both known for being rather minimalist.

I have to disagree on this point also. As a simple point, consider that we recently got up to 27 species in Trunk, before Sludge Elves were cut. During this time, we had to press a capital letter to access the 27th species, which adding time to choose a species and start the game. If we still had Mountain Dwarves, we'd still have this extra click. This represents the major problem with Mountain Dwarves: They took up space. While I don't think one button press is that big an issue, there are more serious ways they took up space. They took up the mental space of players when deciding what species to choose. They took up space in the learning curve of new players. They took up space in the codebase and what interactions could occur without breaking the game. Every species that's in the game must be compared to theoretical, new races. I'd rather have Lava Orcs, Djinn, or Gargoyles than Mountain Dwarves. They also fill up space other species could expand to fill. Minotaurs give a neat headbutt mechanic that adds a bit to tired melee. What if somebody didn't discover Minotaurs because they were busy with Mountain Dwarves? That would reduce their enjoyment of the game.

Nagas, Deep Dwarfs, Ghouls, Octopodes, Demonspawn, Draconian, Tengu, etc. all make fine fighters which play very differently. It's just they're a bit overshadowed by Minotaurs, whose power is more the exception than the rule. We have enough races that put their own spin on melee, and I don't think this race is a far enough deviation to be worth it.

As a formatting thing for racial proposals, it's nice to do something like:

<Race Name>

<Short description, a sentence or two>

<Long description, a paragraph or so>

Proficiencies:
<list one per line>

Special attributes:
<list one per line, limit thematic justifications here to a minimum, if it's not evident from the description, add more to the description>

<Any closing thoughts as to what niche this fills as well as what distinguishes it from other similar races>


Putting "hard" information in simple lists lets people not have to be confronted by a wall of text to pick out relevant details, giving both a short and long description lets people skim and have a little bit of an expectation as to what they're reading.

I take it you're a writer of fiction? You post was beautiful to read, but rather hard to understand. You might want to take a more technical approach, slim your post down to its bare arguments, and use the forum's formatting.

Here's a little 5-minute edit of the first species. Hopefully I didn't change your arguments.

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I do not wish to see Mountain Dwarf (the species which was previously removed) put back in the Stone Soup, rather, I would like to see a creature which fills a similar mythological aesthetic added in their place. I think it would be *more* fun for many a player were there a suitably "Dwarven" race of dwarves (I myself played several Mountain Dwarf Crossbowman which I enjoyed a great deal), and having one in the game does not make it any *less* fun for any player which does not wish to play one (as they can simply refrain from playing them).

The Asgard Dwarf (Dvergar, in their own tongue), or the "Mountain Dwarf", so known for the conclaves they build on high mountaintops:



Ideas for Racial Characteristics:

Is the bring-back-MD thing still a thing?

I kind of like this idea - in many ways I prefer it to minotaurs, and if offered the choice between a game excluding this and a game excluding minotaurs I would take the latter.

Or maybe we can just rename HO to MD?

Reason: kills 2 birds with one stone. 1) Gives MD back to the folks who yearn for it, and 2) Makes it less obvious that LO are just better HO.

As for Beogh, why not just open up Beogh worship to all races. Maybe the reason that Orcs haven't found their savior yet is because they were looking in the wrong places - turns out the Orc Savior doesn't have to be an Orc.

As a fantasy buff, having the orc of the game be some 'flame on!' thing would be pretty weird.

It would sure be nice to have a non-gimmicky dwarf.

I dont understand why you'd change hill orc to mountain dwarf instead lava orc to lava dwarf. As mountain dweller i think lava characteristic fits dwarfs much better than orcs lorewise. I'd love devs to keep ability to play with beogh as an orc without having too many gimmicks from lava orc back ground.

I believe it will never not be a thing.

Until they're brought back.

I don't understand. There's an experimental branch on CSZO with Mountain Dwants that's being tested right now. Since MD is already being brought back, where's the controversy? IMO, this is reminiscent of the the needless debate that ensued when kilobyte removed all of Pan.

Yeah, except they got reflavored so they're not dwants anymore. They're formicids now; still cool, but Fo instead of MD.



That'd be interesting. Lava Orcs are pretty cool, but I'm not particularly invested in them being orcs, so I'd be fine with a Lava Dwarf.

I still think "Volcano Dwarf" is a better name than "Lava Dwarf" (I know, I know, "Lava" is a better description of what they *are* rather than where they're *from* but "High Elves" are not made of "High" they're from the highlands, and Deep dwarves are not made of "Deep" they're from the deeps, races names sound better when they're "Whence" not "What", IMHO)

Besides, if they were Volcano Dwarves, we could all play with VD

Obviously High Elves are called "high" cause they are hippies and smoke uh... natural remedies.



I guess Volcano Dwarves sound bit better, anyway I don't have strong opinion about what the exact name should be.