a few suggestions for thematic and interface related changes

[Team Impy]

In this thread I wanted to address a few issues that have less to do with balancing or addition of new features, and more to do with not making sense in terms of flavor. In addition I wanted to propose some quality of life improvements to the player interface.

1. Slings should be mostly strength based, while crossbows should be mostly dexterity based. This one really surprised me when I learned that crossbow damage inherits 80% of your strength score; there's really no reason for a hand cranked weapon to be based on strength in any way. I would recommend the following values:
blowgun 10-20% (inhaling and exhaling large gusts of air is a muscular action)
sling 40-70% (if there's going to be a strength based launcher it would be either this or the longbow)
bow 30-40%
longbow 40-60%
crossbow 0% (it's basically a gun. Squeezing the trigger harder does not make the bullet fly faster)

2. Vampires should get more nutrition from corpses of sentient beings and less from corpses of animals. Feeding on animal blood is typically portrayed as a vampire's last resort in any media featuring them. This wont have too much impact balance wise as there's about a 50/50 split in this game between intelligent monsters and beasts; mines will be a bit easier, lair will be a bit harder.

3. Show weapon strength/dexterity weights for all weapons. Earlier versions said something along the lines of "this weapon is better for the strong", now it's not shown at all. I propose that the game display the exact percentage as well as how much your current ability scores and skills change the weapon's damage, speed and accuracy. Something along the lines of:
Damage rating: 13 [7 +2(60% str) +1(40% dex) +3(skill)]

4. Show ability score effects and precise numbers for player stats. Perhaps during a mouseover of one of the player's abilities it will show a message box that displays what the ability influences, or pressing @ will take the player to a breakdown of all current stats and where they come from. For example the line for SH may read like this:
SH: 17 [8(item) + 5(dex) + 4(skill)]

[dck]

what happens if my vampire isn't a pussy and will eat the damn porcupine because I told him to?

[Amnesiac]

Str weight doesn't work this way for ranged weapons. Slings do benefit from str the most, and you just fire crossbows faster if you have more str.

[ontoclasm]

Alternate proposal: remove strength weighting. Oh wait, it already doesn't matter.

The reason weapons no longer say "it is better for the strong" is because that was hugely misleading. "It is better for the strong" meant that if you had massively more strength than dexterity, say 30 to 5, you would get slightly more damage out of it than would a person with 5 strength and 30 dexterity. People were assuming that, because they had 14 STR and 12 DEX, they shouldn't use a spear (it's better for the dextrous!!!!), which is not at all the case.

In general, if the interface hides numbers from you, it is on purpose, and done because you shouldn't be worrying about those numbers. I get that people come from games like WoW where everyone obsesses over 0.005% increases in DPS, but in Crawl, worrying about the numbers gets you killed. As long as your equipment, skills, etc. are not completely horrible, you're fine. Positioning and tactics are vastly more important than exactly how your +2 DEX ring is affecting your SH, and pouring numbers at the player just encourages them to forget that.

[Team Impy]

Thanks for clarifying ontoclasm. I'd still like to have a bit more in-game description for the ability scores myself, since despite playing this game on and off for years, I still come at a loss sometimes in regards to how all the math in my build actually fits together. Hitting @ right now is not very helpful, since it just tells you what you can already deduce from what you see happening. The % command is great since it tells you exactly what you can and cannot resist and to what extent, I just wish that there was a good way to assess your core stats as well. The variables can already be accessed from there, so why not give the specifics? It's an out of the way command, so it's not like it would scare away new players with math. Once you've had a chance to play for a while, "You can move 1.3 tiles a turn" or "you can make 1.2 attacks a turn" becomes a lot more helpful than "you are fast".

[galehar]

Alternate proposal: remove strength weighting. Oh wait, it already doesn't matter.

Well, the effect has been doubled, so maybe we could bring back the display of strength weighting. Probably it would need better messages, they were a bit misleading.

Once you've had a chance to play for a while, "You can move 1.3 tiles a turn" or "you can make 1.2 attacks a turn" becomes a lot more helpful than "you are fast".

I disagree. It's important to know if your speed is above or below average, but I don't see how 1.2/turn is a lot more helpful than "fast". How does this level of precision have any effect on your tactical or strategic decisions?

[Amnesiac]

I get a feeling that str wighting really important for some characters now(I don't know how it was before, because I only played mages and stabbers). For example, start an OgFi/Be and try a whip and a mace, even a +2 whip and a +0 mace. You'll get a lot more damage from a mace, even considering their attack speed.

[Sandman25]

I disagree. It's important to know if your speed is above or below average, but I don't see how 1.2/turn is a lot more helpful than "fast". How does this level of precision have any effect on your tactical or strategic decisions?

It helps to be aware of your ability to kite faster than average monsters before you actually try it. Can Sp kite Killer Bees for instance?

[Sandman25]

I get a feeling that str wighting really important for some characters now(I don't know how it was before, because I only played mages and stabbers). For example, start an OgFi/Be and try a whip and a mace, even a +2 whip and a +0 mace. You'll get a lot more damage from a mace, even considering their attack speed.

"Feeling" is all that crawl can give us without fsim Perhaps you were just unlucky with whip and lucky with mace

[jejorda2]

I disagree. It's important to know if your speed is above or below average, but I don't see how 1.2/turn is a lot more helpful than "fast". How does this level of precision have any effect on your tactical or strategic decisions?

It helps to be aware of your ability to kite faster than average monsters before you actually try it. Can Sp kite Killer Bees for instance?

I'd like to see a line in monster descriptions that reads z"it is faster than you" or "it is slower than you" dynamically.

[Team Impy]

I'd like to see a line in monster descriptions that reads z"it is faster than you" or "it is slower than you" dynamically.

I like this idea a lot. Maybe implement it by telling the player how many times a monster or the player can act this turn. I've lost quite a few characters thinking that having an empty tile between myself and a tough enemy meant that I have a turn to prepare myself, only to get hit for 30 damage because it got to move and attack at the same time. Another (more complicated) way to implement this would be to show a scrolling list of all combatants, as to when their turn will come in relation to one another; the sort you see in some rpgs.

Alternate proposal: remove strength weighting. Oh wait, it already doesn't matter.

Well, the effect has been doubled, so maybe we could bring back the display of strength weighting. Probably it would need better messages, they were a bit misleading.

That's the kind of thing I'm getting at with proposing these changes. As a player I have no way of knowing if the effect is doubled, tripled or even exists at all. Maybe stealth will be replaced with a completely different system next patch, but all the game will tell me is that I'm "stealthy". Having a breakdown of the origins of player stats would not only be a helpful indicator now, but also useful for keeping up with future patches. This sort of information should be accessible from withing the game, without having to have a wiki or the latest patch notes open.

Also looking for some more feedback for the vampire nutrition suggestion; it seems like it would be easy to implement with few adverse effects.

[Siegurt]

I get a feeling that str wighting really important for some characters now(I don't know how it was before, because I only played mages and stabbers). For example, start an OgFi/Be and try a whip and a mace, even a +2 whip and a +0 mace. You'll get a lot more damage from a mace, even considering their attack speed.

"Feeling" is all that crawl can give us without fsim Perhaps you were just unlucky with whip and lucky with mace

Fortunately the fsim is easy to use.

  Code:

A level 1 starting OgBe (21 Str, 9 Dex) with a +0 +0 mace and a +0 +0 whip vs a worm:
With starting (4) M&F Skill:
Mace: 2.7
Whip: 2.2
With 0 M&F:
Mace: 2.2
Whip: 1.8
With 10 M&F:
Mace: 4.2
Whip: 3.8
Created the inverse character with 9 Str, 21 Dex, with a +0 +0 mace and whip, vs a worm:
with 4 M&F:
Mace: 2.2
Whip: 2.2
With 0 M&F:
Mace: 1.9
Whip: 1.7
With 10 M&F:
Mace: 3.4
Whip: 3.5


Which just goes to show what we already knew, Str effects damage, bigger Str-weight weapons get more bonus from it than smaller ones do. The difference isn't huge, but is noticeable

As an aside I also compared a +0 mace against a +2 whip, the whip wins with the 21 str 9 dex character

[Amnesiac]

Thanks. I'm too lazy to use this "fsim" and I don't even know what it is. I wonder what's the difference between a demon whip and an evening star if you have 38str (OgFi 27lv) and it would be realistic if they would have some enchantment and brands.

[Siegurt]

The fsim is just the fight simulator built into wizmode.

How to use this "fsim":

1. First make a dump of your char with #
2. Save your character and exit crawl
3. Start a new char (I like to call mine "tester") with the appropriate race/class you are testing
4. Use & (hit shift-Y to accept wizmode) then control-L and set your level
5. Use &# to load your dump file (This will set all your skills and stats, you can do it by hand, it just takes longer) you need to type in the whole path as reported to you when you hit "#" to made the dump
6. Make the equipment you'd like to test, &o will make items, you'll have to use &t to give them +'s, you can rebrand them by changing the 'special'
7. Use &f to test your weapon with your skills against a named opponent (I like to use stone giants as a "middle" critter, and worms as a "small" creature) The number at the end of the first line is the average amount of damage done per unit time ("turn" or 10 AUTs) The number at the end of the second line is the average damage done *to* you.
8. If instead you want to see how advancing a weapon skill will impact your damage use &F (will show you the average damage done for each level of weapon skill
9. Use &_ to worship a god, &^ to set your piety, &w to remove god wrath (in case you're switching)
10. Use &@ to change your stats
11. The fsim will use your current stats/skills as boosted by whatever spells/god abilities you're currently using
12. Don't use a choas branded weapon in the fsim, Unless you are Xom and are amused by chaos
13. If something wanders by use &G to get rid of it (&f will assume you want to pretend-fight that creature if there's one in LOS)
14. Use &? to see all the other stuff you can do in wiz mode.

[Amnesiac]

Oh my, that's a lot of stuff to do...

[Siegurt]

Well, you don't have to do all of it, and it doesn't really take very long, a couple minutes, tops. I just write very detailed instructions.

[prozacelf]

I've encountered exactly one situation where fsim gave an unexpected result: trident of speed vs. vampiric bardiche. Crawl is a game. I suggest playing it instead of wanting numbers for everything.

[Amnesiac]

I've encountered exactly one situation where fsim gave an unexpected result: trident of speed vs. vampiric bardiche. Crawl is a game. I suggest playing it instead of wanting numbers for everything.

And what was the result?..

[prozacelf]

Trident of speed actually does better damage at every level of skill. Of course that does not take into account the benefit of a vampiric weapon giving you Hp.

[Amnesiac]

and not a demon trident? How is that even possible... I mean trident has a twice as low base damage and speed brand takes 10%. It's base delay is faster, but what about the AC of the target?