Name of the Crusader background

[smock]

I know everyone lover crusaders. But I don't think that the name is ideal.

First, some find it offensive. The crusades are not considered my many to have been good. Second, crusaders were religious warriors. And Crawl crusaders are not religious. It certainly confused me at first. For both of these reasons, crusader bring some unwanted baggage from the real world!

I don't propose cutting crusaders, as the background is great. But I'd love to hear ideas for better names. (Or, for that matter, support for the current name.)

[mumra]

I think this threw me at first too. Crusader definitely implies a religious background. Actually the Crusader is closer to what I thought an Enchanter should be.

I'd suggest renaming Crusader to Enchanter, and renaming the current Enchanter (discussed in another thread). Then make a new Crusader as a religious background (thematically I'd say a religious holy warrior worshipping the Shining One).

Of course, all this renaming would really confuse all the four-letter build codes

[vintermann]

Spellswords. Bladesingers. Battlemages. War wizards. Spellbinders.

Or we could take something which does not yell out "fighter-mage!" yet can be defined to be such in the Crawl world. Sorcerer?

[OneTrueFelid]

lol

[szanth]

I'd be fine with a name-change. They aren't, after all, necessarily religious. Bladesinger and spellsword are good, but they insinuate that the person is using a bladed weapon. It'd be weird to be a bladesinger and use a flail.

[zasvid]

Warchanter.

[Zicher]

Witcher?
(although, these did not augment their skills by weapon brands )

[TGW]

Crusaders should be removed if the enchantment split isn't reverted or fixed.

[danr]

How about "Arcane Warrior"?

TGW, what's this about removing Crusaders? Is it a problem to start with both schools?

Currently (well, in Trunk 5348), Cr have two hexes (fire/ice brands) and four charms - RMsl, Regen, Berserk, Haste. I think the two branding spells could be made charms perhaps?

For context:
- The AM book has 5 hexes and one charm (swiftness)
- The Enchanter book is all Hexes

I agree, given the above, Cr should be Charms-based. This could also be done by replacing the two hexes with something else. Other useful charms include swiftness, levitation, flight, sure blade, ozocubu's armour. I'd suggest the last two, to keep them more different from other backgrounds (swiftness & lev would be too much overlap with AE), to still have a weapon buffing spell, and also ozocubu is good for melee characters.

[dolphin]

Lethal Infusion, Poison Weapon, Excruciating Wounds, and Distort Weapon are also Hex brands. These would need to change if you changed the brands.

Concerning Ozocubu's armour, it doesn't work for anything with more than -1 EV penalty (except bardings), so a caster wearing ringmail or more would lose out.

Sure Blade is dependent on short blades, while most other weapon buffs are not, so that, too might need consideration. If it's ok that it is a sb-only spell, I think it would fit excellently with the current build, since it makes a surprising difference early on.

I'm totally for "Warlock" or "Battlemage" or whatever in place of "Crusader".

[zasvid]

TGW, what's this about removing Crusaders? Is it a problem to start with both schools?

Yes, it's a problem to start with both schools. It's also a problem that Charms are so much better than Hexes even for the ostensibly hex-based Enchanter background, and I think that's TGW's problem with the split as it is. And it's definitely not an improvement to give them awesome spells like Swiftness and Ozocubu's Armour just to make them more charms-based, not to mention that this actually pushes them closer to other backgrounds.

New spells for them, then? Maybe, since Might isn't Okawaru's specialty anymore, it could be added as a spell for Cr...er, Warchanters

[danr]

If something is a problem, or "not an improvement", please explain why, that would help me see your argument (you may well be right, just please tell me why). Why is it a problem to start with both schools? Most magic backgrounds have a number of schools they start with.

The two branding spells that Cr have are currently shared by the AM spellbook, the "Book of Brands", so replacing them with anything else can't really increase overlap, it would just move it in another direction. AE and AM both get swiftness right now, so it is not too "awesome" for a starting character (though three backgrounds with the same spell would be too much.)

minmay, did you have a solution in mind (are you favouring recombining hexes and charms?)

Dolphin, good points about the sure blade and ozocubu spells.

I guess this is all on-topic because if the Cr background needs changing, then the name has to take into account the changes.

I think actually some bigger-picture work needs to be done. Between AM, AE, Cr, and En, someone needs to sit down and make sure these are all sufficiently differentiated. There may well be room for two hex-based backgrounds, and two charms-based backgrounds (AE is very charms-oriented), but it may also be possible to combine some of these. And then of course it sounds like the whole Hex / Charms split is under debate.

Lots to think about.

Re: the hexes/charms split, here's the fundamental issue I see - charms buff the player, and hexes affect things outside the character. There's an inherent imbalance in that: any buff of the character helps them with everything they do, while hexes just affect one particular monster or thing. If you are swift, you are swift in relation to all the monsters. If you cast slow on a monster, only one monster is slowed (and it has a chance to resist, while the player won't "resist" swiftness). Even with hexes that affect your weapon, you lose the effect as soon as you switch weapons.

I think that mostly, hexes just need a good buff. I'm trying to use some in a current game but I find they fail too often to be safely relied on. This means I'm not training them much, and their effectiveness will only continue to drop as the HD / MR of monsters increases. If my flame brand would last more than 6 turns, or if slow / confuse had a better than 33% success rate on typical monsters, they would be more useful and thus I would use them more.

The other trouble is that other spells that accomplish similar things to hexes are much more effective at the same thing. Conjure Flame and Mephitic Cloud will stump and stymy all kinds of things and will even kill a lot of stuff. If those are L3 spells, slow and confuse should be L1 and L2 by comparison.

[MrMisterMonkey]

Hexes have pretty much nothing to do with the crusader playstyle other than brands or any of Cr's spells past brands.

Swiftness has nothing to do with the crusader playstyle (what is the synergy between kiting/fleeing ability and melee buffs).

[danr]

I like the idea of giving AM's slow instead of swiftness. Or, perhaps, Confuse. The class could use a bit of a buff still.

Actually, in terms of the AM / Cr overlap, I'd sooner see AM lose the brand spells. They increase your mulch rate, the damage boost is not that great, so overall the synergy for ranged combat is not as good as for melee (also, I don't think arrows of frost have the same slowing effect on cold-blooded creatures). I used to love the idea of the AM background, but I'm starting to think it could just go, unless there are some new spells or at least a new book.

I think Cr can stay as they are - they are a very effective class, are they not?

[mumra]

Witcher?
(although, these did not augment their skills by weapon brands )

I think this would be better for the current Enchanter, who has mostly Hex spells (since the split). It was suggested in another thread that Witch and Hex are closely related.

[galehar]

Spells that every caster learns are most likely too good; you see this with Summon Butterflies, Blink, and Mephitic Cloud (or Evaporate + Fulsome Distillation).

They all have been nerfed. Butterflies number scale with power and blink can put you in dangerous cloud (probably still need more nerf). Mephitic still needs some nerf too, the confusion effect should be scaled to power (but it's some work to code).
There are a few hex spells which affect multiple opponents like mass confusion, but Alistair's is usually better (if you have clarity of course). We probably need more of them. The enchantment split is going in the right direction in my opinion, but there's still work.
Back on topic, I'd like to reflavour crusader with a focus on defensive buffs and ice by replacing fire brand with ozocubu's armour. So it has a nice opposition with my proposed reaver who has a focus on offensive buffs and fire. That leaves just on hex spell, but I don't know with what to replace it. Idea for a new L1 charm/ice defensive buff? I'd also like to remove (or replace?) berserk rage. That's a big change, because the background relies on it a lot, but it's also what makes it overpowered. And I think berserker should be the only background with guaranteed early access to it anyway.
No name idea for the new crusader, but I like renaming enchanter to witch.

[Jenx]

Rename Enchanter to Hexer if it's going to just have Hexes as it's main starting spells.

And I like the Arcane Warrior rename for a Crusader. Fits with the Arcane Marksman too, so that's also a bonus.

On the discussion of spells, hexes and such I've got nothing to say, since I don't really like crusaders and don't play them.

[danr]

I like "Witch". (But then they should have a spell that turns things into toads.)

Warlock I believe is a male "witch". I know "Hexe" is german for "witch".

I do think the Crusader name needs to go - it's a bad "brand" and I don't see what the class in the game has to do with "crusading". Crusader would be appropriate for a religious warrior, not for a magic user. Crusaders would burn those accused of using magic if anything.

Oh - and I like galehar's notion of making a new reaver class a conj/fire melee conjurer type, and shifting the "crusader" to be more of a charms/ice melee type.

[galehar]

Funny, I just noticed that in the source code, crusader is grouped with the other religious backgrounds. Maybe it used to have a god...