Ice Magic Aptitudes

[goo]

As of trunk, there is at least one race with a +3 aptitude in each elemental school...except for ice. Unless you are lucky enough to get a white draconian the highest ice aptitude any race has is +1. This is not a huge deal or anything, but I was wondering why ice magic was underrepresented in comparison to the other elements. (Why don't Merfolk have a higher aptitude? Too imbalanced?)

[BlackSheep]

It leaves open the design space for an ice themed species.

[Klown]

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8795

[goo]

Maybe the same reason there are no races with +3 long blades or +3 staves or +3 crossbows or +3 armour or +3 shields +3 unarmed combat or +3 summoning or +3 necromancy?

That doesn't answer the question at all, on top of the fact those skills do not have as much in common with Ice Magic as the other elemental spell schools do. There is a deliberate thematic symmetry between the five schools. Every other elementalist background has a race with a +3 aptitude they can play if so inclined, and quickly skill up their element of choice.

Again, it's not a big deal, but it's just an observation I had of what I feel is asymmetrical game design. Ice magic is probably also the hardest to specialize in already, since Ice Magic seems to have so many subtypes (some spells are conjurations, some transmutations, summoning, charms, hexes, one is necromancy etc) and a race with a +3 (or even +2) aptitude in Ice could help an get these spells online a little faster and keep them on par with the other elementalist backgrounds. (FE imo is way easier to skill and level since all they need to do is turn on Conjurations and Fire Magic, and there are multiple races that have big positive aptitudes in both of these schools.)

EDIT: Also, every other skill you listed has a race with a +2 aptitude in it somewhere as well. In fact, I'm almost positive every other skill has a race with at least a +2 aptitude in it somewhere. Ice Magic has no race with even a +2 aptitude, unless you count white draconians which you only have a 1/9 chance of getting. The spell school is currently underrepresented during race selection.

[pratamawirya]

You don't just increase any race's ice aptitude because you want to get rid of some "asymmetrical game design", lol.

[Siegurt]

EDIT: Also, every other skill you listed has a race with a +2 aptitude in it somewhere as well. In fact, I'm almost positive every other skill has a race with at least a +2 aptitude in it somewhere. Ice Magic has no race with even a +2 aptitude, unless you count white draconians which you only have a 1/9 chance of getting. The spell school is currently underrepresented during race selection.

Unarmed combat and Necromancy also have nothing better than a +1

[Igxfl]

Unarmed Combat is a special case among weapons, and really shouldn't have any +2 apts. I believe this was discussed during the development of Gargoyles.

Necromancy has Deep Elves at +2.

[goo]

If anyone has a valid argument why Ice Magic should NOT have high aptitudes, please feel free to post a well thought out rebuttal if you disagree with me. Please don't driveby threadshit by making smarmy posts that don't explain anything. It's low content posting that contributes nothing to the discussion. The posts of this nature I have seen so far have a heavy air of arrogance about them, which I don't understand. Get off your high horse, you're not even designers for the game, you're just nerds with thousands of posts on a roguelike message board. Keep that attitude out of my thread, thanks.

Now, onto the discussion...

Let's look at the aptitude tables. Literally every skill in the game except unarmed combat as previously mentioned (which is probably due to the way the UC damage formulas work, anything higher than a +1 aptitude could have the potential to be imbalanced) has at least one race that heavily specializes in it (+2 or higher aptitude) except for Ice Magic. On top of that, Ice Magic spells are arguably the most splintered of all the elemental schools in terms of sub specializing. In order to effectively use the majority of the spells in the school a character must spread their experience out into 5 or 6 different other spell schools. Compare that with a fire elementalist who outside of some specialty spells is pretty much all about conjurations. A Djinni for instance has aptitudes that allow them to easily take advantage of almost any fire spell they come across. High Elves are the same way with Air Magic.

Let's look at the races that do have positive aptitudes for ice magic.

White Draconians - +2 Ice magic aptitude. This is the one race that actually has a great aptitude for Ice Magic. However, you have a 1/9 chance of actually getting to play this race. So basically, if you want to play an IE with good Ice Magic aptitudes you have to get a Draconian to level 7, and hope the RNG God smiles upon you. I don't really count this race because you have to rely on a lucky dice roll in order to to play it.

Deep Elves - +1. High magic aptitudes across the board, probably the best race in the game for taking advantage of the Ice Magic school. But then again, they can take advantage of any spell school, they're Deep Elves. It's kind of their thing. While they won't have a problem casting the conjurations in the school, a large amount of Ice Magic tends towards melee hybridization, which isn't really their forte as they are the glassiest of glass cannons.

Ghouls - +1. Pretty much every other magic skill they have is a negative aptitude, so what's the point. A Ghoul IE will take a long time to get online and is extremely far from optimal.

Merfolk - +1. What should be the defacto Ice Magic race, but terrible spellcasting and conjurations hold them back somewhat. They definitely have the aptitudes to take advantage of Ozocobu's Armor/Condensation Shield/Ice Form, but casting any other spell in the school will require a somewhat heavy experience investment. They make good hybrids, but have a harder time taking advantage of anything in the school that isn't transmutations or charms.

Now let's look at the other races.

Fire Elementalists have Djinni and Tengu for a pure nuker build, or the orcs if you want to go hybrid.

Air Elementalists have Tengu with their massive +3 Air and Conjurations aptitudes, as well as a +1 in Fire Magic allowing them to easily learn Firestorm in addition to the rest of the Air Magic nukes and utility spells. They also have High Elves, whose aptitude spread allows them to easily learn any spell in the school, and then branch out into either a hybrid melee build or other spell schools. Halflings also have an easy time dipping into the school for utility spells.

Earth Elementalists have DD and Gargoyles, both who make great tanky hybrids who both take and deal damage. The orc races can passably pull it off as well.

Venom Mages have Nagas and Octopodes with their big poison aptitudes and neutral spell aptitudes.

And of course there are Deep Elves who have the aptitudes to be great in all of these classes.

TLDR;

Basically, the options for Ice Elementalists are lacking in comparison to the other elementalist classes. Besides Deep Elves (the default glass cannon mage race), the only real viable ice magic race is Merfolk. They only have a +1 in ice magic, as well as a -1 in spellcasting and -2 in conjurations. Aptitude-wise as well as thematically, this game has clear cut elementally themed races (Djinni for Fire, Tengu for Air, Naga for Poison, Gargoyle for Earth) but is missing an ice race. The closest we have is Merfolk who don't quite match up be it in gameplay or in flavor.

Now, is this really a big deal overall? Not really. But it's definitely an area of the game I found lacking and I thought was worthy of discussion.

[goo]

You don't just increase any race's ice aptitude because you want to get rid of some "asymmetrical game design", lol.

Do you think bumping up Merfolks Ice aptitudes to +2, or even +3 for that matter, would make them OP? If so, would you care to explain why?

[ZionRavescene]

You seem to be under the impression that symmetry is a game design for crawl. It is not. This is a good thing.

[pratamawirya]

Do you think bumping up Merfolks Ice aptitudes to +2, or even +3 for that matter, would make them OP?

Probably not, but bumping it up is also not interesting enough. I mean, who cares? One aptitude point difference hardly ever matters.

If we really want to see some +2 or even +3 ice aptitude, I think it's better to create a completely new race for it, like Blacksheep said. Tweaking the ice aptitude of any existing race wouldn't be interesting.

[DracheReborn]

Do you think bumping up Merfolks Ice aptitudes to +2, or even +3 for that matter, would make them OP? If so, would you care to explain why?

Mf already have some crazy aptitudes. +4 Polearms, +3 Dodging, +3 Transmutations. Plus some universally useful ones like +1 Fighting and +1 Charms. Add their amphibious capabilities and they're a really strong race. They're already the best race for Transmuters and very good too for melee hybrid.

Buffing an already strong race to correct a perceived imbalance in overall game aptitudes seems wacky to me. If you really have to, why not propose buffing Ghouls instead?

As for other elemental schools - I think the best race to play an elemental blaster type is DE by far, despite them having "only" +1 in Conjurations and in each elemental school. So that makes Ice Magic no different from say Fire Magic, since DEFE and DEIE are both best in class for both (as far as blaster types go, anyway).

If we really want to see some +2 or even +3 ice aptitude, I think it's better to create a completely new race for it, like Blacksheep said. Tweaking the ice aptitude of any existing race wouldn't be interesting.

Pretty sure that was sarcasm.

[pratamawirya]

Pretty sure that was sarcasm.

i don't think so...

[Klown]

All hail the Deep Yeti, King of Ice.

[5ubbak]

I think Djiini are a weird enough race that it's not entirely fair to count them as go-to Fire Elementalist. Casting Fireball deals you 10 virtual damage. Even when you have a lot more EP than most characters have HP, that hurts a lot... Also, I thought it wasn't certain that they would be in the 0.13 release?

If boosting the Merfolk's ability is not an option, how about giving +1 (or even +2) to Vampires? They have strong abilities in all overlapping schools except Conjurations, are naturally resistant to cold, and should lend themselves well to a hybrid playstyle.
Sure it makes Vampire Enchanters a bit more powerful but they don't need Ice for Confuse anyway and have +4 in Hexes, so I'm not sure it would change the face of the earth.

[tcjsavannah]

I'd rather have less mobs that are cold resistant than a bump in one race's ice magic aptitudes.

[dck]

Ice magic is ridiculously good on its own and is the best magic school after charms and necro so I don't think we need to increase some random race's apt to +3 to match some non-existant symmetry. All magic schools are not equal.

[BlackSheep]

If we really want to see some +2 or even +3 ice aptitude, I think it's better to create a completely new race for it, like Blacksheep said. Tweaking the ice aptitude of any existing race wouldn't be interesting.

Pretty sure that was sarcasm.

Pretty sure you're wrong. Dragging around the aptitudes of the existing species just to "balance" the various skills is a specious idea. The game may want an ice specialist (other than the non-guaranteed white draconian), but filling that void with something new would be far better than just bumping some aptitudes up and down.

[DracheReborn]

If we really want to see some +2 or even +3 ice aptitude, I think it's better to create a completely new race for it, like Blacksheep said. Tweaking the ice aptitude of any existing race wouldn't be interesting.

Pretty sure that was sarcasm.

Pretty sure you're wrong. Dragging around the aptitudes of the existing species just to "balance" the various skills is a specious idea. The game may want an ice specialist (other than the non-guaranteed white draconian), but filling that void with something new would be far better than just bumping some aptitudes up and down.

Oh you were serious? Hard to tell sometimes when half the forum it seems replies with sarcastic one liners. FWIW, I'm not advocating bumping some random race's aptitudes up. What I was thinking is that +3 Ice aptitude just doesn't seem like enough to base a race on.

[Tiber]

I don't really see the harm in a new ice-themed race, provided the idea is good.The Simulacri thread https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8357 had some ideas worth salvaging even if I wasn't sold on the final product (I liked the idea of fire weakness counterbalanced by creating steam when hit by it). Wanting an ice specialist isn't bad, but I don't see any good coming from trying to shoehorn existing races into that playing style, especially when they already have clear playing styles.

[BlackSheep]

Oh you were serious? Hard to tell sometimes when half the forum it seems replies with sarcastic one liners. FWIW, I'm not advocating bumping some random race's aptitudes up. What I was thinking is that +3 Ice aptitude just doesn't seem like enough to base a race on.

Sure, jokes about design space are commonplace here. (that was sarcasm)

Of course if you start out saying, "I want to design a species with +3 ice aptitude!" you're going to have trouble because that's a terrible basis for design. Cold and ice are a broad theme, though, and I expect someone will eventually come up with a well-rounded concept that would naturally call for a high Ice Magic aptitude.

[goo]

Ice magic is ridiculously good on its own and is the best magic school after charms and necro so I don't think we need to increase some random race's apt to +3 to match some non-existant symmetry. All magic schools are not equal.

Can people stop making posts where they not only post an opinion as fact, but offer no explanation as to why they feel this way. These posts are really irritating. Ice Magic is not without it's weaknesses, for one thing lots of prevalent mobs resist it heavily. (Undead anyone?) To me it seems to be the jack of all trades, master of none elemental school. A little bit of everything, but others schools can do it better. (Air has better utility, Fire better conjurations, etc) It also requires a much larger XP investment to take full advantage of the school due to the fact there isn't a race that can really pull off an IE except for DE (who are the only race really good at using the ice nukes, but why go IE over conjuror or FE if that's what you want ice magic for?) . And if Charms and Necro are the only schools better than Ice, why do they both have races that have +2 aptitudes in those respective schools but not Ice Magic?

I'm not sure why people are getting so riled up about the term symmetry either. Or claiming it's not existent. It exists in the sense that the player has the option to choose any skill in the game they want to base their character around, and have a corresponding race that specializes in it. Except for Ice Magic. Is Ice Magic really so powerful that it needs to be kept in check by not allowing any races to have superb aptitudes in it? Please. Also not sure why people are so combative and argumentative either. I'm merely stating out an objectively missing area in the game, the lack of an "ice specialist" race. We have a "everything else" specialist race. So why not ice? Why shouldn't there be a race in the game with an ice theme and a high ice aptitudes? Please tell me why this would be a bad idea instead of leaving arrogant one liners.

I'm not claiming shifting around aptitudes is optimal, just an idea. (Personally I would love to see a new race designed from the ground up that has a heavy cold/ice theme) Although in the case of Merfolk, is a +4 Polearms aptitude really necessary or interesting? Or +3 transmutations...with their insanely high polearm aptitude it's pretty much suboptimal to not use a polearm while playing one. Using a polearm and using a lot of transmutation spells are mutually exclusive.

[dck]

Fire is the worst magic school, too.

[BlackSheep]

Can we not devolve the thread into discussions about our favorite magic schools and whether merfolk aptitudes make sense?

OP: There's a design space open for a cold-themed species that would be a great way to introduce a high Ice Magic aptitude to the game. Other schools have their own issues, but the fact that they have one or more species with a high aptitude is not alone a reason to change the aptitude table.

[galehar]

Why shouldn't there be a race in the game with an ice theme and a high ice aptitudes?

Sure why not, just design a new species. Like many others, I don't think buffing the ice aptitude of any of the current species is a good idea.

[Siegurt]

I also agree that an ice-themed race would be better than bumping the aptitude of any race that exists out there, simply to have one with a high aptitude for ice.

[pratamawirya]

nevermind

[mikee]

One thing I would like to point out is that there is some risk in a species having a very high aptitude (+3 is very high), particularly when it has competing aptitudes that are low. It's cool and all (ha-ha) to say that some species needs to be the ice lords of crawl, but what can happen is that X becomes the best possible species for class Y, and vice versa. Every time you want to play X, you should play it as Y. Every time you want to play Y, you should play it as X. That's kind of boring and lacking in replay value.

[Galefury]

in the case of Merfolk, is a +4 Polearms aptitude really necessary or interesting? Or +3 transmutations...with their insanely high polearm aptitude it's pretty much suboptimal to not use a polearm while playing one.

Hey, you just gave a good argument why just slapping a +3 ice apt on some random species would be bad!

Also you repeatedly said this is not a big deal. So why are you spending so much of your time arguing about it? Seems a bit... assymmetrical.

[mikee]

Please don't driveby threadshit by making smarmy posts that don't explain anything. It's low content posting that contributes nothing to the discussion. The posts of this nature I have seen so far have a heavy air of arrogance about them, which I don't understand. Get off your high horse, you're not even designers for the game, you're just nerds with thousands of posts on a roguelike message board. Keep that attitude out of my thread, thanks.

I am not trying to put you down or anything when I say this (of course the amount of attitude people have can be excessive), but you should also consider your own role in responses like that. When you are relatively new to any game and you want to contribute to design, you have to take it for granted that you might not know what you think you know, and the deeper that game's mechanics are, the more you have to do this. For example, I rarely play first person shooters. Imagine I started playing Call of Duty and I started posting that the rocket launcher needs to be buffed - it just runs out of ammo so fast! It's useless after a few shots! Now the reality is that the rocket launcher is the best weapon in the game, and what I never mentioned is that I was unable to recognize the ammo boxes for rockets. I have no credibility in this discussion anymore.

Your analysis in your second post in this thread is a lot like my example. Fire elementalists are the weakest of elementalists (maybe with some playstyles it is easier but not stronger), and ice elementalists are the strongest. This is widely accepted like the rocket launcher is. Possibly because your own tone is authoritative in that post, some people thought it would not be productive to give you explanations as to why.

[Grimm]

A report button got punched and reading the thread I think it's best to shut it for now. mikee's post immediately above mine shall be the final word on the matter. OP, check your mail.