Throwing skill, warpers and god gifts

[danr]

I have a problem and would like to throw around potential solutions.

I love both warpers and gladiators. However, that starting Throwing skill is a problem. If you go Okawaru, which is a very good choice for either of these, or Trog with the Gladiator, it means you will be buried in a hail of dart gifts.

After mulling a few ideas (eliminating Throwing as a skill, giving these classes a choice of ranged schools), I think the best way is to target the root of the problem - the god gifting algorithm.

I'm not sure how the weighting is currently done, but I think it should be possible to "overshadow" throwing skill eventually. This would be very simple - for the purpose of gifts, any weapon skill that is 5 levels lower than the next highest skill should just be treated as if the player had 0 skill in it.

Currently, getting throwing skill near or at the beginning of the game has a potentially game-crippling effect for those hoping for god gifts. The prospect of getting so many dart gifts is so un-fun that I basically never throw anything for fear of getting that 1st level of throwing.

[OneTrueFelid]

I disagree with you on several fronts, one of those being the role of the needlestabber. Simply put, a needlestabber is generally a Halfling or Kobold that attempts to get to 27 Throwing as quickly as possible (easy enough) while worshiping Trog, resulting in plentiful gifts of Needles of Paralysis, the crux of the strategy. Among other things, +3/+4 Steel Darts are highly effective at picking things that like to run away (like Unseen Horrors!) - Throwing isn't as bad as you think! The problem is that Throwing is dabbled in by many players who don't intend to make it their focus, resulting in complaints about gifts that they don't want.

Trufax: You don't want that third +0 Animal Skin, but Okawaru is going to grant it to you anyways. The #1 way to get the gifts you want is to survive. Survive = time. Time = piety, if you're doing anything at all. Piety = gifts.

[mageykun]

What advantage do you get from 27 throwing, besides the increased chance of relevant god gifts? I have no idea where you hit minimum delay with throwing, or what the damage scaling looks like with higher levels. Does good throwing decrease the chance of resting enchanted ammo effects? I could actually affecting high MR monsters with status effects being very useful.

Brainstorming:

Right now, ammo gifts are different- they have a lower minimum piety to trigger the gift, and have a faster timeout. If you merged ammo in with all the other Oka/trog gifts, you'd certainly get less of it (though this might be very unattractive to archers, slingers, etc. Eventually further armor or weapon gifts are unneeded- but you want the ammo to keep flowing forever).

Giving darts their own skill again would separate them from other throwing gifts, and would split the xp for slower training, but I'm not sure that's worth it.

[jejorda2]

Aren't ammo gifts on a different timer than weapon and armour gifts? Isn't it already set up so getting ammo gifts doesn't reduce the number of other gifts that you get?

Isn't the only bad thing about ammo gifts that enemies might pick them up if you don't? They don't take time or inventory slots if you don't pick them up.

[OneTrueFelid]

Needles of Paralysis make a heavily Throwing-based check to paralyze (as do Needles of Sleeping, Needles of Confusion, and Needles of Frenzy, all useful tools). It is a HD check; not an MR check. I think giving Darts a separate skill is a bad idea and Throwing is just fine the way it is. Over the course of a game, so long as you survive then you will have a good chance of getting appropriate (read: ones that you won't complain about) gifts. Monsters will not pick up gifts if you are not on the floor (like any other item). Stashing them is not a problem, as needles are not a threat so long as the opponent does not have a blowgun (and much less so later on considering the Throwing check involved!) and darts/other things, while presenting a nice little tool for the player, are not as threatening on the other end of the exchange.