The Tavern

There is this god who gives you two no-brainer abilities and his gifts are useful for most species and backgrounds, too. Don't you think that something should be done with that? At least the bonus from heroism should be scaled by character level or skills or it is too strong and there is no way you'll need to think about not using this ability. Same with finesse, it should be proportional to character level. But that won't change much in terms of no-brainerness, so I think that the solution needs to be more decisive.

Whether or not to worship Okawaru is a big enough decision. Compare like Vehumet who has no active abilities. Choosing a God is a big enough decision that the actual gods can have pretty clear-cut and powerful abilities

Okawaru is meant to be a straightforward and easy god, so obviously his abilities will be no-brainers.

Still, if people are open to ideas, I'll throw some out:

Heroism:
- Places an "arena" aura around you, exactly like how Zin's sanctuary is placed. If you leave the arena without killing the monsters, you loose a lot of piety and lose the duration. Same stat bonus otherwise.

Finesse:
- Prevents cleaving and reaching.

There is this god who gives you all the spells in the game and prevents miscasts and gives you a free mp button but you don't see people complaining about it.
There is this other god who gives you lots of necro spells and prevents necro miscasts then improves your melee vastly, but people don't complain about that either.

Oka is fine, he lets you start picking up spells sooner into the game which is good and much later he lets you use better-than-haste melee, though sparingly. Making Hero area based is ridiculous; making it a permanent, passive buff however is not and it's how it should be already since Hero is (or should be) at all times active whenever it may be even remotely relevant to have it available at all. Oka's constant shower of junk with the occasional okay item isn't a factor when you're deciding which god to follow because there are other gods who don't have supposed benefits you may never see at all.

Amnesiac wrote:There is this god who gives you two no-brainer abilities and his gifts are useful for most species and backgrounds, too. Don't you think that something should be done with that? At least the bonus from heroism should be scaled by character level or skills or it is too strong and there is no way you'll need to think about not using this ability. Same with finesse, it should be proportional to character level. But that won't change much in terms of no-brainerness, so I think that the solution needs to be more decisive.

No.

evilmike wrote:
Amnesiac wrote:There is this god who gives you two no-brainer abilities and his gifts are useful for most species and backgrounds, too. Don't you think that something should be done with that? At least the bonus from heroism should be scaled by character level or skills or it is too strong and there is no way you'll need to think about not using this ability. Same with finesse, it should be proportional to character level. But that won't change much in terms of no-brainerness, so I think that the solution needs to be more decisive.

No.

You mean there is no room for improvement here or what?

dck wrote:There is this god who gives you all the spells in the game and prevents miscasts and gives you a free mp button but you don't see people complaining about it.
There is this other god who gives you lots of necro spells and prevents necro miscasts then improves your melee vastly, but people don't complain about that either.

Oka is fine, he lets you start picking up spells sooner into the game which is good and much later he lets you use better-than-haste melee, though sparingly. Making Hero area based is ridiculous; making it a permanent, passive buff however is not and it's how it should be already since Hero is (or should be) at all times active whenever it may be even remotely relevant to have it available at all. Oka's constant shower of junk with the occasional okay item isn't a factor when you're deciding which god to follow because there are other gods who don't have supposed benefits you may never see at all.

Thats because everybody whorship Vehumet and nobody cares about him. To be serious, picking sif is not a no-brainer to begin with. Picking kiku is not for everybody, too. As for oka, the only other melee alternative(and oka benefits both melee and ranged and allows magic) is Trog and using his abilities is not a no-brainer. What's more, you can always switch to another god like Kiku or TSO(and oka won't take his gifts and an easy start back) if you want to use them in the later game, so that adds to no-brainer choice.

At least heroism should be nerfed, imo.

Amnesiac wrote:the only other melee alternative(and oka benefits both melee and ranged and allows magic) is Trog

"Melee"? Trog is the only "melee" god to begin with (because he forbids magic). Anyway, you can play a "melee" character with Makhleb, Yred, Zin, TSO, Nemelex, Ely etc.

Amnesiac wrote:you can always switch to another god like Kiku

Or you can start by worshipping Kiku and get pain earlier and just kill thing with pain and maybe inscribe some animal skins with {god gift} to pretend you used to worship Oka.

Well... Yes kiku is GOOD, but that doesn't change the fact that oka is too simplistic and his stuff is a no-brainer. That's just kinda... sad. And what use there is in worshiping TSO in the early game? And I don't think that Zin is a very popular choice, too. Ely.. she is just boring.

The joke about inscibing is good, did you come up with it yourself?

As for oka, the only other melee alternative(and oka benefits both melee and ranged and allows magic) is Trog

Fedhas? Makhleb? Nemelex? Ely? Maybe Yred?

These gods all are better for "melee" characters than for "casters" for various reasons (well, you can argue about Fedhas I guess). They are all better for at least some characters than Okawaru or Trog.

but that doesn't change the fact that oka is too simplistic

This is the entire point of Okawaru. If you want less simple try one of the gods I mentioned above.

And what use there is in worshiping TSO in the early game?

Do you like not missing enemies? You get that at 1*. You also get the best summons in the game by the end of lair or end of orc, roughly (TSO piety gain is pretty fast now!). I would not argue that TSO is a better choice than other gods early on, but he's hardly bad now.

I actually assumed this was a joke topic poking fun at some other things that have been posted on tavern recently when I first saw it.

Amnesiac wrote:simplistic
no-brainer
kinda... sad
just boring

How convincing.

Look, other people already told you: by worshipping Oka you can't worship other gods, so converting to him is a not no-brainer because it closes other options to you. Heroism is cheap and good and using it is a no-brainer by itself (and it should be passive, yes) but Finesse is not cheap. Okawaru is also a simple god by design. If you want a more complicated melee god, why don't you write one of those awful New God proposals instead? It has the same chance to be implemented as your current proposal.

Oka is fine, and what oka needs is to remove the need of hitting aa three hundred times every game. What he doesn't need is to have the only actual solid benefit he offers nerfed into oblivion.
Kiku is overall a -much- stronger god, giving you access to a brand that turns any shitty orc whip into a killing maching that's at min delay with 10 skill and you can have almost before you're done with lair and granting you strong spellbooks before that.
Also, TSO gives you summons comparable in strength to Trog's and gains piety pretty fast, Zin is great all game long (imprison enough is great, but he even gives you more stuff) and Healers have an instakill ability so they're pretty powerful and popular.
And can't you saying no-brainer what is wrong with you?

Arrhythmia: 1) every character needs HP to live - Arrhythmia: 2) makh gives HP - Arrhythmia: 3) therefor, makh is good for every character

Better make Makhleb less of a no-brainer, guys!!!

trollface.jpg

Every character should cast spells, because spells can do a lot of very good things in this game. Vehumet and Sif make you better at casting spells. Therefore, Vehumet and Sif are a no brainer.

shit guys we should probably just get rid of gods altogether at this point. religion is starting to look like a nobrainer.

Arrhythmia wrote:Every character should cast spells, because spells can do a lot of very good things in this game.

but this is true

dck wrote:but this is true

FFFFFFFFFFUCK MAGIC

dck wrote:but this is true

I never joke.

crate wrote:I actually assumed this was a joke topic poking fun at some other things that have been posted on tavern recently when I first saw it.

Rule of Amnesiac: Never attribute to irony that which could just be horrible posting.

Everybody is trollin, this thread is gonna end up in CYC. Well I don't mind, but this topic is "Game Design Discussion" so I thought I'd post it here. Well, I've seen opinions of people, so it's ok, but I feel alienated, because nobody has agreed with me

I'll report you all for trolling and mocking me, you just wait! :geek:

You shouldn't take it personally, but your idea just wasn't very good, sorry.

I hope you understand that I was joking in my previous post, don't feel bad.

I just thought that it's obvious, that oka lacks fun and flavour, and that it's bad. It's not like I have a concrete Idea or something, I just though "should I post what I think about oka, to see what people think or not?" and I did.

Yeah, I'm not seeing it. A god of battle making you good at fighting isn't a no brainer so much as a tautology. I like Oka even more with his (relatively) new piety mechanic. He has a theme of warrior god without Trog's antimagic bent or TSO's holy/chivalric biases.

An interesting mechanic I'd like to see expanded is the effect with an XP-based durtion. Right now it's used primarily for debuffs. A new or existing god could grant boons that last for a few fights or floors or somesuch.

I used to think Oka was too strong, too, thanks to my first 15-runer. In that game, Oka gifted, among other things, a triple sword, very good artifact CPM, and boots of running, all fairly early. So I was pretty much rolling over everything all game. Then I played a few more Oka (and Trog) games, where they gifted nothing better than the stuff on the floor. That sure changed my opinion in a hurry!

I don't think Oka is a no-brainer god at all. One thing to note is that Oka doesn't give summons, and in fact, actively discourages you from using summons. Summons are a really nice tool for both offense and defense and if Oka isn't gifting very good armour and weapons then the lack of summons is quite painful.

I'd pick Oka only for UC (+5 UC boost is strong) and ranged characters (ammo gifts), mostly, and maybe for some hybrid builds. For heavy armour melee types, gods that provide a wide range of Invocation based abilities like Makhleb, Fedhas, Yred are better than Oka, IMO, unless you like betting on the RNG to give you good gifts.

I do think the Oka->TSO (or Trog->TSO) conversion path is kind of trite. It would be more interesting if Oka (and Trog) takes back weapon gifts on abandonment, I think.

Amnesiac wrote:okawaru the no-brainer

minmay wrote:Well...Okawaru isn't a great melee god.

I'm pretty sure your reasons for Okawaru being extremely overpowered (where there any?) are not persuasive enough.

Ps. try Makhleb, for example.

I prefer Trog's Berserk to Okawaru's Heroism personally.

Mankeli wrote:I'm pretty sure your reasons for Okawaru being extremely overpowered (where there any?) are not persuasive enough.

I didn't say that he is "extremely overpowered" or overpowered at all. And I didn't want to persuade anyone, I just wanted to see opinions. I think heroism is a bit overpowered, when you first get it, though. But that's not the point.

Okawaru appears overpowered because his abilities are straight forward (easy to optimize). Once one is past the mid game and one's skills and equipment are naturally pretty good Oka, in my opinion stops being 'so powerful'. Still one of my favorites.

There's nothing wrong with having some simple, easy to understand gods. If you want non-no-brainers then go play Nemelex or something.

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