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Everyone always complains that there are no high level poison spells. Curare is incredibly good against anything susceptible to poison. Make a fireball like cj/pois spell or even a charm/pois spell to temp brand a weapon with curare. I think level 8 would be good. If it's too strong as cj/pois, then make it pure pois.

Actually I would love some buff for poison weapons

poison loses offensive capability as the game progresses because a lot of monsters become poison resistant, especially in extended. Poison arrow is pretty much as good as it get (very good spell IMO). I know I wouldn't invest experience in a high level poison spell if didn't work on poison resistant monsters.

rebthor wrote:If it's too strong as cj/pois, then make it pure pois.

Strike that, reverse it.

Not that it matters, really, as this spell seems pretty unworkable. It would be massively overpowered if you could cast it pretty much anywhere in D (think of how good P. Cloud already is, then think about how much better Curare Bomb would be) followed by massively useless in extended. Further, the sorts of people who want to be able to just blow through the game using nothing but Poison Magic are probably going to hate this spell anyway because it a) doesn't kill things that are rPois, and b) still involves them poking it some other way, most likely.

1010011010 wrote:poison loses offensive capability as the game progresses because a lot of monsters become poison resistant, especially in extended. Poison arrow is pretty much as good as it get (very good spell IMO). I know I wouldn't invest experience in a high level poison spell if didn't work on poison resistant monsters.

Here's an attempt to make a poison spell that would be useful at high level:

Poison Swamp

Poison Level 9:

Each turn during the duration of the spell random square(s) in your LOS may temporarily turn into a Sticky marshy swamp square for the duration of the spell. Sticky swamp squares take longer to move through than regular squares and cause fumbling like shallow water. Each round such a square may generate a thick acidic, poisonous cloud of gas which will last for a short while. Thick acidic, poisonous gas clouds act as strong poison, and cause acidic damage on contact, also thick clouds when stacked together may block LOS like fog.

Note that squares which have turned into poisonous swamp will remain so until the end of the duration of the spell, even if you move out of their LOS. The duration of this spell may not be extended (Re-casting the spell will dispell all ongoing swamp effects and start the duration again)

Spellpower effects duration and the rate (likelyhood) of any given square's conversion.

----

Effectively this is an area effect damage over time spell that provides some protection and can do some damage to resistant creatures (More to non-resistant creatures) Similar to the way Ice/Fire storm do more damage to non-resistant critters, but can still do damage to resistant ones, but it retains the poison "Flavor" of doing damage over time. Also it provides some LOS cover, but not in a predictable, abusable way like blowing up potions of water used to be.

I'd like to see it be pure poison magic so there'd be a reason to raise it to higher levels.

Strongest poison spell for most purposes is Mephitic Cloud (great for crowd clearing) and because it's poison/air/conjurations it can reach max-power with 0 in poison.

Poison Arrow actually can manage to poison through poison resistance, since 30% of the damage is irresistible; can damage non-organics and can poison anything organic, which does need some levels of Poison to be useful (but I'm not sure how many).

Those two remain quite useful into late game; but neither is a reason to train Poison to high levels. I think poison is -meant- to lose some of it's usefulness, because only organics can be affected. It would be interesting to have some reason to get poison up to higher levels, but I'm not sure what it is...I don't think I'd support it doing much damage to non-organics though; it's why multiple magic schools need to be trained. What might be interesting though is higher level poison causing a corrosion or acid effect; since the poison effect is less useful at high ranges (but the confusion is)...temporary vulnerability effect.

Has anyone ever thought about a poison spell that BUFFS UP the caster? I mean, something like this:

Toxic Injection

lvl 7 Poison/Charm:
Temporarily increases the caster's Str and Dex dramatically, but also temporarily puts him in an incurable Poison state (can be yellow or light red or even bright red). Doesn't work if the caster is an undead.

Voodoo / lvl 7 / poison/necromancy:

Smite target an enemy with whatever needle you're wielding. Deals some damage, inflicts the needle status, and breaks the needle.

pubby wrote:Voodoo / lvl 7 / poison/necromancy:

Smite target an enemy with whatever needle you're wielding. Deals some damage, inflicts the needle status, and breaks the needle.

This sounds cool.

Parrow is already much more direct damage than poison magic deserves.
Meph is terrible and the devil because it keeps killing new players unaware of the godawful ruckus it makes and who don't quite get there might be a better course of action than waking up the whole neighborhood for the off chance of placing a cloud properly that may confuse the enemy.

pratamawirya wrote:Has anyone ever thought about a poison spell that BUFFS UP the caster? I mean, something like this:

Toxic Injection

lvl 7 Poison/Charm:
Temporarily increases the caster's Str and Dex dramatically, but also temporarily puts him in an incurable Poison state (can be yellow or light red or even bright red). Doesn't work if the caster is an undead.

Variations on this theme have come up before.

https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2133
https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8006
https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4697

This has been covered quite a few times, sadly.

Also, site search is janky and "poison magic" in GDD "is too common". Can that be modified in any way? Google search against the forums doesn't seem to be able to narrow to just GDD unfortunately.

pubby wrote:Voodoo / lvl 7 / poison/necromancy:

Smite target an enemy with whatever needle you're wielding. Deals some damage, inflicts the needle status, and breaks the needle.

You mean like portal projectile?

Could we add acid based spells as high level poison spells. It would be work on rpois monsters and would be unhelpful against armoured monsters since loot would be corroded.

Arrhythmia wrote:You mean like portal projectile?

Yeah, I had realized this too, which is why I didn't post it in the earlier poison magic threads.

Could we add acid based spells as high level poison spells. It would be work on rpois monsters and would be unhelpful against armoured monsters since loot would be corroded.

Only if you can think up something that is unique and cool. The other threads cover the problems with acid.

pubby wrote:Only if you can think up something that is unique and cool. The other threads cover the problems with acid.

First thing to mind would be an acid variant of primal wave, a level 8 poison parallel to LCS and balled lightning. A high damage medium range (maybe knock back) attack which produces a small temporary puddle of acid which damages anything not flying or levitating over it including the caster and items should they stand in acid, doesn't damage those with rAcid+++.

Having briefly read the aforementioned threads, someone's beaten me to this idea, but also there seems to be some quarrel with having acid as a part of the poison school or having an acid spell available for the player although I don't see why. there was also mention that acid spells mentioned are unimaginative and boring as well as overlapping with earth magic since almost nothing resists acid.

Personally I feel that acid can extend the usefulness of the poison school while keeping to the poison play style of damage over time, to prevent it from being too similar to offensive earth spells It can be made more dangerous to use, for example: the acid spray spell I mentioned above could not have a knock back effect, making it dangerous to use in close quarters.

I added a proposal for the "Woorali Staff" unrandart to the wiki.

+4/+0 Quarterstaff with Curare Brand, -Stealth, may cause Curare damage to wielder during any round the wielder does not have rPois.

I think acid spells could give poison magic a chance to be useful at later levels. If we have something like 9lv spell acid nova or something or acid spray with a cone targeting. It could be a channeled spell like searing ray. I don't know, my imagination is not so hot today. But I always find it kinda disappointing that there is not much use in training poison magic to higher levels.

For those who want a curare spell that isn't limited by curare needles, try Corpse Rot.

pratamawirya wrote:Has anyone ever thought about a poison spell that BUFFS UP the caster? I mean, something like this:

Toxic Injection

lvl 7 Poison/Charm:
Temporarily increases the caster's Str and Dex dramatically, but also temporarily puts him in an incurable Poison state (can be yellow or light red or even bright red). Doesn't work if the caster is an undead.

Also guarantees you won't make the baseball hall of fame.

Lasty wrote:For those who want a curare spell that isn't limited by curare needles, try Corpse Rot.

I have. The fact that a curare like effect exists and is essentially unlimited in most of a 3-rune game indicates that one that is not necromancy + physical component based but high level would not necessarily be OP.

Vile Form, level 8 Poison Magic / Transmutations.

You become a non-living toxin elemental, exuding extremely virulent bursts of foul air. You gain Non-Living (rRot, 50% rTorment, Unbreathing) Poison Immunity, Fast Movement 1, Gelatinous Body 3, Deformed Body, and an Acid-branded Unarmed Combat attack. Every few turns, as the bubbles of filth in your body burst, you'll billow out a cloud of miasma like a defeated plague shambler.

~~~

I think it'd be a neat idea, but still essentially useless in the late game outside of slaughtering draconians in Zot. I think the only way we're going to see Poison Magic get any love will be if there's ever an overhaul of extended. Maybe shuffle out some of the four Hells with less demonic options (Valhalla would be nice, and could be filled with legions of overly beef natural holiness monsters). Until then, I don't know what could be done.

Acid-branded UC would be ridiculously strong and UC with just fists is ridiculously strong to begin with already. I assume twisted body means it wouldn't meld armor? So it wouldn't screw with your resistances and defenses much, it'd greatly improve your melee damage against almost everything in the game and give you a movespeed bonus.
Miasma is enormously good against everything it works on too and plenty dangerous things are vulnerable to it, like orb guardians.
Single school DF is good enough a reason to train transmutations since DF can be really good, but a spell like this vile form thing would be enough of a reason to get higher venom magic without switching the focus and development of the school much which is think is pretty good.
But of course it'd be overpowered as all fuck. Does sound fun though. Definitely better than acid storm or cones or whatever that people keep bringing up.
And it'd still fit more in the game than something like lich form after all.

Deformed Body would keep your armour in place, yeah, just with a 50% penalty to base AC. The Gelatinous Body 3 would partially negate that, but I wanted the end result to be a character with slightly worse defenses than what it started with.

I figured that straight up Poison Magic wouldn't fit what I wanted here, but if I made it a lvl 8 or 9 two-schooler, it'd still require some serious PM training. As for the heap of too-many-buffs, I wanted to make sure it was at least competitive with Necromutation. You wind up with a horrifying melee character, but there's still no ranged capabilities to speak of. How would you rebalance it? Making it level 9 would give Transmut an L9 spell finally, and that'd basically require getting high-20s in two spell schools that offer little this doesn't cover, plus significant UC to see the damage actually matter.

I'm not sure I follow, this form wouldn't impede spellcasting and all that poison magic training would make parrow pretty strong, about as any conjurer's who kills things with spells. Basically the "drawback" I can think of would be having to sink all that exp into poison magic and tmut to a lower degree which would impede then getting lots of non-poison conj spells because you also have to train UC which is veryy demanding and your defenses too.
What I like about it is that it's a very good reward to high investment in a school that is normally not very popular to get to higher levels because parrow crosstrains with conj and conj crosstrains with lots of other good things. Also while really powerful by design "acid damage" is just numbers, numbers can be adjusted to remain sane without multiplying already huge damage by a lot.
At first I thought it'd have the problem of stepping on DF's toes, but they're really pretty different.
This one wouldn't have an HP bonus, would still increase melee damage by a lot and wouldn't really touch your defenses much, because one thing you may have not considered is base body armour AC for people who would cast this isn't gonna be so good so it'll be almost nullified by jelly body. Also torment resistance doesn't make much sense there, the form is already drastically better than nmut with nmut having the single advantage of belonging to a better magic school.
The problem I have with it is assigning it a spell level, I think seven would be much better than eight because then it is still possible to work towards it in a 3 rune game but it is actually worth the investment unlike old DF. Perhaps to further differentiate it from new DF it could have the chance of miasma explosions and acid damage added to the attacks depend on power or maybe PM, so it'd be good to keep working on it instead of say getting it from sif and casting it at 15% failure because more power doesn't do much.

True, P Arrow would still be easily attainable by then, even with only moderate Conjurations training. Anyway, thanks for the feedback. I'll chew on this a bit.

I just realized this should probably give rRot and unlike torment res it'd make a bit more sense.

I figured rRot would be implied by the non-living holiness. The aim was to yoink all the unusual defense boosts gargoyles get, apart from, you know, the actual defense boost. Thus rTorm 50%.

MoogleDan wrote:I figured rRot would be implied by the non-living holiness. The aim was to yoink all the unusual defense boosts gargoyles get . . .

We already have Statue Form.

I like this a fair amount. It's simple and people know what it does. It also clears what I see as several of the major issues with new poison spells:
- It's thematically relevant (i.e. "about poison").
- It's not acid (since at the moment, acid is excluded from the definition of the poison school).
- It doesn't make light of poison resistance.

But I see two potential problems with it:
- To some it may not appear sufficiently differentiated or interesting. I'm just saying that I wouldn't be surprised if some of the people who haven't offered their opinion in this thread have not done so simply because this spell doesn't excite them or seems like it's just co-opting curare needles. I suppose I share that view to an extent, because I'd prefer a plague spell like the one that was discussed in an earlier thread.
- The question of whether this spell is useful/relevant. I think that one of the major problems with poison is no real tactical justification to train it high, and the way in which this spell is implemented determines that completely. The thread starter rebthor offered a couple of options, but more specifics are required. For example, I agree with BlackSheep that it would be nice to make this pure poison so players have more of a reason to train it, and I don't know that a single-target curare spell would be that useful compared to just PArrow spam. Making this a temporary weapon brand spell, Curare Storm™, or plague of curare could increase the tactical desirability. That's because there's no point in adding a poison spell which destroys monsters in a 3-rune game any more than Poison Arrow already does, so any high-level poison spell would have to be somewhat useful in extended too, and IMO that means it needs to be able to quickly affect lots of non-rPois monsters to compensate for their scarcity (since there's a lot of opposition to spells that make light of poison resistance, and a patch that reforms extended to not be full of poison immune monsters is not something that I expect to happen anytime soon).

ackack wrote:
MoogleDan wrote:I figured rRot would be implied by the non-living holiness. The aim was to yoink all the unusual defense boosts gargoyles get . . .

We already have Statue Form.

the point is this spell would be not rubbish.

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