Abyss improvement

[KoboldLord]

Removing the Abyss and banishment entirely is probably taking it too far. Even at the low levels the player is at when they meet Erolcha, the current Abyss is not a death sentence, and a player who is willing to burn consumables and alter their usual playing style has a pretty good chance of getting out successfully. Escaping from the Abyss is sometimes a lengthy challenge, but it is not an unfun one at the point in the game where actually fighting the monsters will lead to being overrun. There aren't enough points in the game where the player actually has to run.

The nastiest things in the Abyss tend to be things you can't outrun, so perhaps there should be more of those things. Then throttle the numbers so they simply don't appear until the player hits a certain xp level, and they start coming in greater and greater numbers after that point. While a skeletal dragon accompanied by two packs of skeletal warriors are scary-looking and clearly undefeatable, they don't actually pose a whole lot of threat to the typical 8th-level character who has no plans to come back anytime soon. In contrast, there's just simply no way for that 8th-level character to cope with an executor, whether the skeletal warriors and dragon are there or not.

[galehar]

Then throttle the numbers so they simply don't appear until the player hits a certain xp level, and they start coming in greater and greater numbers after that point.

I hate scaling difficulty with player XL. That's very meta-gamey and uninteresting. Scaling over time spent in the abyss is much better. If you're abyssed too often early on, then you're screwed. And you should be, or else, what's the point of the Abyss?

[joellercoaster]

One option is to give "hotter, colder" messages that indicate your approximate distance from the nearest exit - similar to what bazaars and labyrinths do.

I like this idea!

It's possible the Labyrinth model would make the Abyss too easy (Labs are already reasonably cruisy to find your way out of, and the Abyss is generally open). I always liked Nethack's Plane of Water level, where you couldn't see the bubble containing the portal reliably because the bubble changed shape, and the portal moved around the level.

I also like the idea in the other thread, of having more exits, but perhaps having them harder to access.

(Oh and: I'm one of the people for whom XL10 banishment is an almost-certain death sentence, so I realise I'm not the entire target demographic for this proposed change!)

[KoboldLord]

I hate scaling difficulty with player XL. That's very meta-gamey and uninteresting. Scaling over time spent in the abyss is much better. If you're abyssed too often early on, then you're screwed. And you should be, or else, what's the point of the Abyss?

While I can certainly see your point, character level is a whole lot more likely to be relevant from a gameplay perspective than time spent. What happens if I don't get Abyssed during the course of my game? Do I have to grind through thousands of turns worth of newbie Abyss before I can reach the point where the Rune starts spawning? I don't think 'not metagamey' should trump 'fun' in the hierarchy of desirable gameplay qualities.

I don't actually much care if frequent Abyssings make you totally screwed or not. I just want whatever number of Abyssings I get to be fun Abyssings, live or die. And if I get an early Abyssing, it's a whole lot more fun to flee headlong from packs of skeletal warriors while imps flit around and take potshots, and then either be cornered or escape, than it is to see an executor and not be able to do anything about it.

[zasvid]

I hate scaling difficulty with player XL. That's very meta-gamey and uninteresting. Scaling over time spent in the abyss is much better. If you're abyssed too often early on, then you're screwed. And you should be, or else, what's the point of the Abyss?

While I can certainly see your point, character level is a whole lot more likely to be relevant from a gameplay perspective than time spent. What happens if I don't get Abyssed during the course of my game? Do I have to grind through thousands of turns worth of newbie Abyss before I can reach the point where the Rune starts spawning? I don't think 'not metagamey' should trump 'fun' in the hierarchy of desirable gameplay qualities.

Making Abyss' difficulty based on Character Level, in addition to being metagamey (and probably hard to explain in a way that doesn't make the player aware of the metagameness of it), would have a rather annoying side effect -> Abyss would be more punishing for fast levelling races. This would probably create all kinds of purely spoiled behaviour based on the fact that you don't want to get banished more if you are a human than a demigod. Even if it was a marginal effect it would make the game less fun for at least some of the more paranoid players (which might not be a small subset of the playerbase, roguelikes breed paranoia ).

Instead, to be fair for all races, the function of Abyss' difficulty could be based on both time spent in the Abyss and time spent in the whole game. Perhaps time spent in the game could only have influence on the acceleration rate of difficulty in the Abyss, so if you get Abyssed late and don't want the rune, you can get out without too much trouble, but if you linger in the Abyss, things get interesting fast. Another option would be to scale the potential threats according to time spent in the abyss and the density of them according to time spent in game or the other way around (e.g. if you get banished early once you'll see just imps and stuff; if more times, you'll get an executor or two; if you get banished for the first time in the late game, you'll see mostly imps at the beginning, but once you stay too long, it's all executors). Perhaps an even more sophisticated function is needed to tailor the Abyss to all needs, but this is an issue which is complex and probably requires a complex answer.

[smock]

One option is to give "hotter, colder" messages that indicate your approximate distance from the nearest exit - similar to what bazaars and labyrinths do.

I like this one, too, I also like vaults or gate guards.

Increasing the difficulty (spawn rate?) after spending more time in the abyss is good. If you're actually looking for the rune (and ignoring those hot/cold messages), the abyssal rune could really be a good fight!

[seth]

there's just simply no way for that 8th-level character to cope with an executor, whether the skeletal warriors and dragon are there or not.

"The Executor hands you the deed to your grandfather's property! You can't afford the inheritance tax!"

[szanth]

?

[dpeg]

A conservative way to make the Abyss easier to escape is by adding new vaults (which is good in any case). If messages are considered necessary, I support "hot/cold" (appropriately flavoured, of course) over giving directions. We also have the parameter of Abyss respawning to make it more interesting.

[KoboldLord]

Exit vaults during early Abyssings shouldn't be too well-defended, or they might as well not exist. The main 'feel' of the Abyss that should be preserved is the feeling of fleeing in terror from WAY too many monsters that are too hard to kill even if you could take them on individually. Guarded exit vaults make it much easier for characters who can already trivialize everything in there, but they're worse than useless for low-level characters that are just trying to get out.

[acvar]

My general response to abyssing is to quit the character and start a new one immediately. Why? Because the time I spend wondering aimlessly around the abyss to find the exit is far less fun then the time it takes me to get a new character up to the same level as the abyssed character. Games should never be boring, tedious, and annoying.

I asked it before and nobody has answered it yet. If abyssing is good to remove from hell effects because it is boring, tedious, and annoying why is it not equally boring, tedious, and annoying when some mid game unique does it to you, and as such just as good of a target for removal?

[galehar]

Exit vaults during early Abyssings shouldn't be too well-defended, or they might as well not exist. The main 'feel' of the Abyss that should be preserved is the feeling of fleeing in terror from WAY too many monsters that are too hard to kill even if you could take them on individually. Guarded exit vaults make it much easier for characters who can already trivialize everything in there, but they're worse than useless for low-level characters that are just trying to get out.

If we make 2/3 of the exits heavily guarded, we can triple the exit spawn rate while keeping the same level of difficulty for early char and making it much less tedium for late ones.

[KoboldLord]

My general response to abyssing is to quit the character and start a new one immediately. Why? Because the time I spend wondering aimlessly around the abyss to find the exit is far less fun then the time it takes me to get a new character up to the same level as the abyssed character. Games should never be boring, tedious, and annoying.

You should probably give up roguelikes entirely, because they clearly don't fit your preferences. Most of us play because we find the challenge fun, so we don't just quit when we get to a difficult part.

I asked it before and nobody has answered it yet. If abyssing is good to remove from hell effects because it is boring, tedious, and annoying why is it not equally boring, tedious, and annoying when some mid game unique does it to you, and as such just as good of a target for removal?

The Abyss is a fun and interesting experience for a low-level character. It is only when you have a high-level character that can kill everything in the Abyss with ease that the Abyss becomes boring. Criticisms of Abyssal play with a high-level character are completely unrelated to criticisms that involve play for a low-level character.

If we make 2/3 of the exits heavily guarded, we can triple the exit spawn rate while keeping the same level of difficulty for early char and making it much less tedium for late ones.

That makes it okay, probably. It might be more discouraging for inexperienced players to have to pass up more than half the exit portals they find, though.

[OneTrueFelid]

An inexperienced player, without some stroke of luck, is dead in the Abyss anyways. Having more exits (with some of them guarded by nasty critters!) is an awesome idea, I think. Opens up plenty of room for something, like the uniques you've banished guarding varying exits. Though, that makes you wonder why they wouldn't just leave themselves in the first place. -_-;

[acvar]

You should probably give up roguelikes entirely, because they clearly don't fit your preferences. Most of us play because we find the challenge fun, so we don't just quit when we get to a difficult part.

I have been playing roguelikes since rogue. I enjoy challenges. I do not enjoy boring tedium. Do you understand the difference between tedious and challenging? Challenges are fun. Tedium is boring. I do not quite because things get difficult. I quit because it becomes boring and tedious and as such unfun. The abyss is tedious and unfun. It could be improved if it did not take so long to find the exit. It could be improved if there were some skill involved in finding your way out instead of just wandering around aimlessly.

[mrbobbyg]

Escaping from the Abyss after being sent there by a skeletal warrior with a distortion weapon is one of the more memorable moments of my gaming career. Up there with killing Jon Irenicus in Baldur's Gate II. So, while I understand that it can be frustrating, it was at least super awesome to this one player.

[mad]

I agree, I love the abyss - my most memorable death was at about XL16, I got sent to the abyss by a unique, and ran around, by some miracle found the exit. Got out. Then went to get my revenge on the same unique. Got sent back into the Abyss, and learned a valuable lesson.

Running around going "OH CRAP OH CRAP I AM ABOUT TO DIE" and hoping you can find something is one of the most exciting parts of crawl for me, which I get to experience when I'm trying to get to a labyrinth, bazaar, or even a drain surrounded by rats. Urgency is awesome fun.

I love the idea of having abyss exits triple in frequency but be guarded 2/3rds of the time. The thing that worries me is if the guards are going to be dickheads and follow your low level character around and kill 'im anyway. Perhaps some sort of sweet trap statues?

[Dustbin]

After spending about 80 minutes in the Abyss trying to get out recently, I defiantely support more exits or some message hinting at the location of one. It definately the most boring thing I've ever done in Crawl, especially when the teleports thought it would be funny to kick in 3 or 4 times when an exit was in sight

[Shade]

Have you ever lost a character in the Abyss?

If so, then there is probably, in fact, some skill involved in finding your way out. For real aimless wandering, try a labyrinth.

I must be the resident masochist, but I like labyrinths (and the Abyss). Mind you, I think labyrinths could be made some combination of smaller and more dynamic (in some way). Then again my definition of fun may be more tedium oriented than crawl philosophy allows for (which is fine).

[Volgon]

I rarely lose a character in the Abyss (maybe 15% of the time), but it is my least favorite part of the game. The randomness of the Abyss can mean that you either lose 20 turns, die, or spend an hour of time using every scroll/wand/potion of teleport, healing, speed only to find your character lost every means of escape to complete the rest of the dungeon.

I don't think that it should be removed from the game, but any of the following ideas (IMHO) would make it more fun:

-Better loot
-Challenges (a powerful creature will offer you an exit if you can best him (or his minions))
-Additional exits (requiring a certain item(s) like a trove)
-Additional exits (but with the understanding you will be sent to a random dungeon level)
-Less dead ends (I tend to end up in a corner with 20 creatures behind me, teleport, repeat...)

I also really like the vaults and direction indicator ideas above.

[joellercoaster]

Kind of off-topic, but: I like Labyrinths too. They're not aimless, they feel pretty well-hinted, and they don't seem to take too long to solve. If you don't like them, you can just let the portals time out.

The Abyss is an almost-certain part of every game that lasts to a winnable point - keeping it a cool part of the game is important. And in my (apparently minority) opinion, it's not uncool now.

Something else that occurred to me is that the Abyss could do with being more varied, rather than easier to get out of (obviously, not at the point where you're XL27, on your ninth visit from a Zot trap, and playing it in time that could be better spent sleeping - just for the characters who aren't super threatened but need to keep their eyes open the whole time). It's this plane of utter chaos, but a lot of the time it just doesn't seem weird enough. Thinking Wizlabs full of blood, and the Banished Temple, and stuff. That would be fun.

[zasvid]

Kind of off-topic, but: I like Labyrinths too. They're not aimless, they feel pretty well-hinted, and they don't seem to take too long to solve. If you don't like them, you can just let the portals time out.

Well, I would, but it's relatively easy 1700 xp and a handful of items and my desire to get ahead in Crawl is still greater than my desire to avoid tedium (this is coming from someone who had 2 labyrinths in a row yesterday, solved both, but it was quite aggravating. a pity I hate updating stuff so much that I haven't moved on to trunk, limiting labyrinths to 1 per game is a great move).

[Sometimes]

I used to think banishment was just a slightly more drawn out instakill for early characters, but it really grew on me. It's good to have the threat looming, and the sudden change of pace is interesting. Survival is not remotely guaranteed, but a lot more likely than I had thought. Turns out you're just supposed to run...

I absolutely agree with joellercoaster above- let's have some more weirdness. I'm coming across a few odd features in trunk now- the banished temple, a huge pile of gold on a plain of fire, a rather nice rune vault- I would love to see more of this. Doesn't have to offer new gameplay, just add character to the place. I want to feel like I'm exploring. I would consider spotting something rare and cool to be a fair consolation for an early death.

P.S. Whoever came up with the kraken exit, the hell with you. I made it through with a flying dwarf fighter on single-digit health, hacking tentacles all the way. Honestly, thank you for the cinematic moment.

[dpeg]

One more reminder: if there's stuff in a thread that would improve the game (you can usually judge by reading the thread), then make sure to add the crucial ideas to the relevant wiki page. If it's already there but the discussion is still interesting, add a link on the wiki page to the Tavern thread. Ideally, finish with a link in the Tavern thread to the wiki page you edited. (When I say "wiki", I mead the one on CDO: https://crawl.develz.org/wiki/doku.php). If you don't do this, good ideas will drown unnoticed, they survive much better on the wiki, even if it seems that nothing happens for a few months. Thank you!

[smock]

Good suggestions.

Feel free to request that something be added to wiki. Especially those of you are devs or know that scene. As simple as "@joe Pls Wikify". Its not always clear from reading a thread what is brainstorming and what is wikiworthy.

[dolphin]

how do you add a namespace to a page with the alphabetizing app (and still have it sort nicely)?