Throwing Buff Ideas

[bcadren]

Common knowledge is that Throwing is semi-useless past lower levels and yet both it and 'slings' still get skill slots. Rather than completely scrapping it (or keeping it so it's a stupid decision to use past the lower levels) I'd like to submit a suggestion to significantly buff throwing (and change ranged a bit in general) in the following parts:

1. Combine Slings into Throwing. I say this especially because there aren't more powerful sorts of slings for mid or late game and blowguns are already part of throwing despite being a far more different action than slings vs. throwing is. An argument to combine Bows and Crossbows could also easily be made.

2. Either:
(a) Throw anything (within reason) and stack similar. What can be effectively thrown as a weapon varies with the STR stat and the Throwing Skill. This effectively means at higher levels one could hurl a broadaxe effectively. Stacking similar helps with practice of gathering weaker weapons to use for throwing; it would allow unidentified weapons to stack like throwing-only weapons (so 10 mundane daggers collected to use as throwing weapons would take up one inventory slot instead of 10). Non-weapons simply do damage based on weight when thrown this way. Everything would have a mulch chance relative to throw skill.
OR
(b) Restrict to throwing specific weapons (to prevent the behavior of stashing mundane daggers and spears to throw); but greatly increase the variety of throwing weapons available. This could potentially give ranged combat the flavor and game stage evolution that melee has. It's notable that not only throwing, but also Bows and Crossbows lack much variety of basic mundane (pre-enchantment) stats. Regular Hand Axes, Daggers etc. would revert to 'throwing awkwardly' because they aren't properly balanced to be thrown. Both the delay and damage may vary as well as some of the larger throwing weapons (like throwing hammers) disallowing Shield use. Short list of ideas for new named throw weapons:

Kunai
Shuriken
Hunga Munga
Boomerang
Discus
Throwing Hammer [Mjolnir (Thor's Hammer) was supposedly a throwing weapon afterall.]
Tomahawk [Throwing Axe]

3. More branded/unique throwing weapons. Aforementioned Mjolnir, spawning as a nonRandArt with +5,+3 and Electrocution could be interesting. Noteably it could probably be used only once per battle, but it'd make a single heavy hit when it does. Artifact throwing weapons should have a low/non-existent mulch chance.

4. 'Returning II', 'Boomerang' or 'Rebound' brand. [couldn't pick a name] A combination of 'piercing' and 'returning'. Has a chance relative to throwing skill to make a return trip and a chance relative to skill to hit each enemy both ways. Would be a rare brand applied only to throwing weapons with piercing damage type; but potentially extremely useful, with an extremely low mulch chance at high levels of the skill, due to it nearly always returning. [Side note; like melee, throwing should make the piercing, slicing, bludgeoning split.]

5. Charms with as Fire Brand, Freezing Aura, etc. Should now apply brand to thrown weapons even when there is no launcher. New spells intended for throwing/archery and magic combination characters introduced:
Returning Ammunition (Charms/Translocation - 03) - For a period (turn count relative to Charms skill) all unbranded thrown items get a chance (relative to Translocations) to receive the returning brand.
Piercing Force (Hexes/Charms -04) - For a period (turn count relative to Charms skill) all unbranded thrown items get a chance (relative to Hexes) to receive the piercing brand.
Boomerang Blade (Hexes/Charms/Translocation 06) - For a period (turn count relative to Charms skill) all unbranded thrown items get a chance (relative to lowest of Translocations/Hexes) to receive the 'Returning II' brand.
[There could be more; including some towards making them explode; but I thought that was pushing too much into normal magic; these are my primary ideas that would be only useful for ranged.] A bow/arrow or javelins Skald spawn would make sense to display the mechanics change.

6. Apply brands to Throwing Nets. Steel throwing nets fray more slowly. Flame-branded nets cause small fire elemental damage until broken free of. Electrocution branded have a chance to stun and hold the target longer. Etc.

[jejorda2]

Having more items to throw that act the same as each other or the same as javelins/spears sounds like a bad idea. I like the dart/javelin/large rock spectrum. I don't like every weapon class having a throwable base type. Spears ought to be the only "both throw and wield" item, unless daggers get stabbing when thrown (and then I guess they need to mulch.) I could go for adding a demon weapon rarity throwing object that does more damage than a javelin and can be used by normal sized races, but we don't need to add six different weights of javelins any more than we need six new weights of maces.

The "Returning II" sounds like something that should be on a fixed artefact.

I don't like branding for ammo at all. I'd like to see branded arrows dispensed with, and only have launcher brands. It's a pain to manage multiple stacks of ammo, whether it is thrown or launched. I don't want to see more brands for ammo.

I'd like to see higher throwing skill give a chance to throw multiple darts in a single turn. Maybe each dart would "consume" some of the target's EV roll, since if it is moving left to dodge the first dart, it can't move right to dodge the second. So the later darts are pretty much guaranteed to hit. Or a handfull of darts could use dazzling spray targeting to hit multiple enemies.

[Arrhythmia]

I think the best idea would be for each ranged-school to get a defining tactical choice, much like what is being worked on for the melee weapons.

Namaste

[bobross419]

Hunga Munga

Regardless of what happens with this thread, I want to be able to have an Ogre that throws Hunga Munga at people.

[XuaXua]

How about just list some in-game data already regarding the potential damage of given thrown items and how they stack up against each other. Large rock or javelin or spear? Throw an axe, dagger, club, dart, or rock? What is more effective? WHY DO I HAVE TO ASK? Complete violation of the game principles.

Absolutely ZERO in-game documentation about it vs the relative data provided for hand weapons.

[XuaXua]

Also, don't restrict the returning brand spell to unbranded. Returning should be a stackable brand.
Also, I believe success of the return is based on throwing skill, so return chance should be based on the appropriate ranged combat skill, but only if the ammo does not mulch.

[Siegurt]

Common knowledge is that Throwing is semi-useless past lower levels and yet both it and 'slings' still get skill slots

This is incorrect, throwing is one of the best skills in the game for killing the nastier pan/hell lords (paralyze needle stab) What gets less useful is throwing daggers darts, spears, other miscellany you find lying around

1. Combine Slings into Throwing. I say this especially because there aren't more powerful sorts of slings for mid or late game and blowguns are already part of throwing despite being a far more different action than slings vs. throwing is. An argument to combine Bows and Crossbows could also easily be made.

Well, I don't quite see how this would have an impact in making the skill "significant" you train the two skills for different reasons. Also it would make acquirement of missiles less useful.

2. Either:
(a) Throw anything (within reason) and stack similar. What can be effectively thrown as a weapon varies with the STR stat and the Throwing Skill. This effectively means at higher levels one could hurl a broadaxe effectively. Stacking similar helps with practice of gathering weaker weapons to use for throwing; it would allow unidentified weapons to stack like throwing-only weapons (so 10 mundane daggers collected to use as throwing weapons would take up one inventory slot instead of 10). Non-weapons simply do damage based on weight when thrown this way. Everything would have a mulch chance relative to throw skill.

You can already throw anything, and the damage done is based on weight and throwing. Weapons do damage proportional to their damage, and get a penalty for not being designed to be thrown. Stacking arbitrary weapons would be nice, for throwers of things like that, but ultimately I don't know why I would want a stack of 30 mundane, mulching daggers, when i can have 3 that are indestructable and weigh less, and as you point out, they stop being a viable damage source late game, so why make changes to make it easier to carry something I am just going to want to drop?

OR
(b) Restrict to throwing specific weapons (to prevent the behavior of stashing mundane daggers and spears to throw); but greatly increase the variety of throwing weapons available. This could potentially give ranged combat the flavor and game stage evolution that melee has. It's notable that not only throwing, but also Bows and Crossbows lack much variety of basic mundane (pre-enchantment) stats. Regular Hand Axes, Daggers etc. would revert to 'throwing awkwardly' because they aren't properly balanced to be thrown. Both the delay and damage may vary as well as some of the larger throwing weapons (like throwing hammers) disallowing Shield use. Short list of ideas for new named throw weapons:

Kunai
Shuriken
Hunga Munga
Boomerang
Discus
Throwing Hammer [Mjolnir (Thor's Hammer) was supposedly a throwing weapon afterall.]
Tomahawk [Throwing Axe]

3. More branded/unique throwing weapons. Aforementioned Mjolnir, spawning as a nonRandArt with +5,+3 and Electrocution could be interesting. Noteably it could probably be used only once per battle, but it'd make a single heavy hit when it does. Artifact throwing weapons should have a low/non-existent mulch chance.

4. 'Returning II', 'Boomerang' or 'Rebound' brand. [couldn't pick a name] A combination of 'piercing' and 'returning'. Has a chance relative to throwing skill to make a return trip and a chance relative to skill to hit each enemy both ways. Would be a rare brand applied only to throwing weapons with piercing damage type; but potentially extremely useful, with an extremely low mulch chance at high levels of the skill, due to it nearly always returning. [Side note; like melee, throwing should make the piercing, slicing, bludgeoning split.]

5. Charms with as Fire Brand, Freezing Aura, etc. Should now apply brand to thrown weapons even when there is no launcher. New spells intended for throwing/archery and magic combination characters introduced:
Returning Ammunition (Charms/Translocation - 03) - For a period (turn count relative to Charms skill) all unbranded thrown items get a chance (relative to Translocations) to receive the returning brand.
Piercing Force (Hexes/Charms -04) - For a period (turn count relative to Charms skill) all unbranded thrown items get a chance (relative to Hexes) to receive the piercing brand.
Boomerang Blade (Hexes/Charms/Translocation 06) - For a period (turn count relative to Charms skill) all unbranded thrown items get a chance (relative to lowest of Translocations/Hexes) to receive the 'Returning II' brand.
[There could be more; including some towards making them explode; but I thought that was pushing too much into normal magic; these are my primary ideas that would be only useful for ranged.] A bow/arrow or javelins Skald spawn would make sense to display the mechanics change.

6. Apply brands to Throwing Nets. Steel throwing nets fray more slowly. Flame-branded nets cause small fire elemental damage until broken free of. Electrocution branded have a chance to stun and hold the target longer. Etc.

I like some of the ideas for throwing brands, steel nets would be particularly nice. I don't see much need to increase the amount/variety of base types. It would be nice if brands applied to thrown weapons, but again, it's such a minor thing that I hardly notice (Antimagic thrown daggers would be quite useful though)

There've been a couple spell suggestions related to ammo pickup (thrown and fired) because it is slightly tedious, although it was pointed out that that's more of a macro/interface thing than a game mechanic thing.

[DracheReborn]

I don't think throwing needs a buff (as in throwing stuff, not using a blowgun). You already get a huge benefit by not having to change weapons to throw stuff (as mechanically impossible as it seems). Javelins make a very decent throwing weapon.

Btw, I think throwing gets its own skill slot because of blowguns - precisely because it's something that you normally won't train high, so the devs already have it doing double duty with the blowgun skill. Having it take triple duty with slings too make no sense to me.

[Amnesiac]

If blowguns are part of throwing, why not make slings use throwing?

[DracheReborn]

If blowguns are part of throwing, why not make slings use throwing?

IMO blowguns shouldn't be part of throwing. They're really very different skills, and the fact that they were (wrongly) conflated seems to have inspired the OP's proposal.

Alternative proposal: Get rid of Throwing skill, replace with Blowgun skill. For chucking stuff, calculate damage as a function of Str (which is currently the case) and calculate accuracy as a function of Dex (taking the place of Throwing skill). Blowguns function as before with the Blowgun skill.

[Amnesiac]

it would make sense, but I would prefer blowguns, slings and the actual throwing to use throwing skill, because all of those are just side arms, right? This would give a wider choise of what to use as a support for melee. Like slings agains jellies, blowguns for some tougher guys who need to be disabled and large rocks(if playing large species) and javelins for annoying stuff like orc priests.

[TwilightPhoenix]

Slings are fine though. A slinger can rely on Slings throughout the whole game if they wish since ammo is plentiful. Sure, they might need to go Okawaru or Trog to have a steady supply of steel and silver bullets for later areas, but there's never a point where slings suck. Yes, they do less damage than bows and crossbows, but you can use a shield at no penalty with them and they also shoot faster. Slings are also the only viable jelly-killing ranged weapon, for what it's worth.

[Amnesiac]

slings are fine, that's why it would be cool to combine something fine with something less fine to improve the thing that is less fine.

[dck]

And as a result you give sling users the ability to paralyze anything remotely dangerous for free and effectively remove throwing because why are you gonna throw anything to deal damage when you've got a sling?
Throwing is really slow and only haste and finesse can speed it up and that's what makes it terrible to deal damage around the mid game, but blowguns are silly strong and useful all game long.

[Amnesiac]

Ok, then how about separating blowguns from throwing, but combine slings and throwing?

[Volteccer_Jack]

Throwing is mostly fine. It's just javelins that are in need of a buff. Making Throwing skill matter more for damage would be a good start.

You already get a huge benefit by not having to change weapons to throw stuff (as mechanically impossible as it seems).

No you don't because throwing is always 1.0 delay whereas any character with significant investment in a launcher will be faster than that. (also you can just walk around with the launcher wielded)

[prozacelf]

Bring back Darts skill.

[Amnesiac]

Ohh, there were times like that... I remember playing 0.4 or something and there was darts skill IIRC. How long ago was it removed?

[bcadren]

First I think these are the primary issues that throwing is dealing with:

1. Unlike Unarmed, damage doesn't scale with skill and unlike melee weapons there aren't stronger late game base types; which leads using it for support very weak past mid-game. [This excludes blowguns with curare needles, which are very powerful even at close to no skill and remain powerful throughout the game.]

2. Though semi-true with all ranged skills, but more so for throwing; ammo stacks take up a lot of inventory slots that would be free in a melee-only or magic-based character.

3. The boosts from leveling the skill are minimal and irrelevant enough that either the skill itself needs more utility or scraped.

Response to feedback:

Having more items to throw that act the same as each other or the same as javelins/spears sounds like a bad idea. I like the dart/javelin/large rock spectrum. I don't like every weapon class having a throwable base type. Spears ought to be the only "both throw and wield" item, unless daggers get stabbing when thrown (and then I guess they need to mulch.) I could go for adding a demon weapon rarity throwing object that does more damage than a javelin and can be used by normal sized races, but we don't need to add six different weights of javelins any more than we need six new weights of maces.

Daggers getting stabbing when thrown stands the chance of becoming overpowered and allowing a one hit from afar. Demon weapon rarity with higher base damage was a lot of what I was going for though I went out and thought of unique names instead of just going 'demon javelin' or throwing trident (since throwing something like a pitchfolk is stereotypical demon work). I'll admit though; it is a bit bizarre how many base types maces and flails (13) and long blades (14) have; notably this does include the 'blessed' base type which is just a TSO-altered demonic quality.

I don't like branding for ammo at all. I'd like to see branded arrows dispensed with, and only have launcher brands. It's a pain to manage multiple stacks of ammo, whether it is thrown or launched. I don't want to see more brands for ammo.

Avoiding branded ammo for having only branded launchers does sound like a good option; to prevent there being a lot of stacks in your inventory slot of all the different ammo brands you find that are worthwhile; you could instead have only one or two launchers that have brands and a single ammo stack. The issue of course being with throwing, there is no 'launcher' there's just the ammo; the best way to approach this; if we were to get rid of all ammo brands is to add a gauntlet slot armor that auto-applied brands to anything thrown; probably limited to items intended to be thrown of course (though it's hilarious to think about applying the dispersion brand to a potion of poison and using throwing to make a Mephritic Cloud).

I'd like to see higher throwing skill give a chance to throw multiple darts in a single turn. Maybe each dart would "consume" some of the target's EV roll, since if it is moving left to dodge the first dart, it can't move right to dodge the second. So the later darts are pretty much guaranteed to hit. Or a handfull of darts could use dazzling spray targeting to hit multiple enemies.

I like this idea. Either correlate (non-blowgun) throwing damage to the throwing skill; or allow multiple throws in the same turn with enough skill.

Alternative proposal: Get rid of Throwing skill, replace with Blowgun skill. For chucking stuff, calculate damage as a function of Str (which is currently the case) and calculate accuracy as a function of Dex (taking the place of Throwing skill). Blowguns function as before with the Blowgun skill.

If throwing skill training isn't made more useful; this is perfectly reasonable. Perhaps also range could correlate to Str or the skill; so at low levels blowguns (though still having powerful poison) could only hit one space in front of you (like a high damage item freeze spell); while at high levels it uses the full LOS (or even send sailing slightly beyond it if you missed targets within or 'straight line' fired).

New thoughts:
What makes the different kinds of weapons unique is that each had some different bonus effects; in there case each of these is a different school; axes attack enemies adjacent to the target as well; polearms can attack two squares away, etc. Perhaps different base types in ranged could have similar unique bonuses; instead of just stat differences.

Throwing base type thoughts:
Harpoons - Attempts to pull target into melee range (ideal counter for a melee-focused fighter with some throwing experience to counter archers and mages); also can be used to 'beach' aquatic enemies, causing asphyxiation damage.
Boomerangs - Thrown at an arch instead of a straight line; has both piercing and returning, but low base damage; making it great against weak mobs and for room clearing but rubbish against armor.
Darts - Small and lightweight enough to be thrown in quick succession; weak enough damage to be useless without poison or similar brand.
Greek Fire - [Always Mulches] a pot designed to create a cloud on contact. Normal ones are comparable to a single use of the flames wand or fire breath weapon with a 3x3 damage area while poison-branded ones spawn a 3x3 mephritic cloud.
Javelin - Chance of 'impale' state (causes damage every turn the target doesn't come free. target wastes turns removing it (comparable to a net; but tends to last fewer turns and causes damage))
Throwing Hammer - Blunt damage type, instead of sharp (relevant for doing more damage to jellies and not spawning more hydra heads); range more limited (due to weight) but more powerful.
Stones/Large Rocks should also be switched to blunt-type.

Other:
Cheiroballistra - Powerful crossbow-type; fires 3-5 bolts in a shot-gun-like damage cone.
Double Bow - Fire two arrows per shot; single target focus.
Blowgun - One-Handed Range: 2 Base Damage: 0 for early game
vs.
Long-Pipe Blowgun - Two-Handed Range: Full LOS Based Damage: 3 for mid-late game.

Also, single-handed vs. double-handed split could come out for throwing as well; single-handed throwing items having little issue with shields and primary weapon equips and two-handed being more powerful, but requiring unarmed status to throw effectively).

[Demon varieties could also be helpful for late game; regardless of types used.]

[Azrael]

I like the idea of a grenade-type throwing consumable.

[Amnesiac]

There are darts of explosion.

[XuaXua]

Transmutations/Charms spell: temporarily change the base type of any ammo fired from normal to steel or silver during spell duration.

[DracheReborn]

Some comments.

[This excludes blowguns with curare needles, which are very powerful even at close to no skill and remain powerful throughout the game.]

I don't think that's right. Curare isn't effective against tougher, high AC monsters, or any rPois monster. At high throwing (blowgun) skill, the special needles are much better.

Greek Fire - [Always Mulches] a pot designed to create a cloud on contact. Normal ones are comparable to a single use of the flames wand or fire breath weapon with a 3x3 damage area while poison-branded ones spawn a 3x3 mephritic cloud.

That sounds like a combo of Conjure Flame and Fireball Flame clouds are pretty strong. 3x3 flame cloud is like poor man's Firestorm.

Throwing Hammer - Blunt damage type, instead of sharp (relevant for doing more damage to jellies and not spawning more hydra heads); range more limited (due to weight) but more powerful.
Stones/Large Rocks should also be switched to blunt-type.

I don't think any current thrown or ranged weapon cuts off hydra heads. And not sure what your point is about jellies. Stones and rocks are used against jellies because jellies can't dissolve them, not because they're blunt. I don't think this is a worthwhile distinction.

Cheiroballistra - Powerful crossbow-type; fires 3-5 bolts in a shot-gun-like damage cone.
Double Bow - Fire two arrows per shot; single target focus.

On the whole, I see non-blowgun throwing as just a support skill and not something to build around (e.g. like wands). I'd rather see more ranged effects worked into slings/bows/xbows, which IMO could use more differentiation.

From the discussion on melee weapon effects, I think the point was made that simply doing more damage isn't interesting; it's different tactical effects that should be looked at. So your shotgun-style crossbow is interesting, but firing 2 arrows at the same target isn't (basically, it's a bow of speed).

Personally, I'd like to see more interaction between spells and ranged weapons, beyond Portal Projectile. Imagine using a sling to hurl a Fulminant Prism or Iron Shot to full sling range. Or even better, a special fireproof sling that can hurl Sticky Flame'd stones at enemies.

One more idea for a new ranged weapon to throw in the pot - the Staff Sling. A stronger sling that crosstrains with staves. Joseph's new favorite weapon

[BlackSheep]

[This excludes blowguns with curare needles, which are very powerful even at close to no skill and remain powerful throughout the game.]

I don't think that's right. Curare isn't effective against tougher, high AC monsters, or any rPois monster. At high throwing (blowgun) skill, the special needles are much better.

Curare doesn't check AC. The damage and poison may not be as significant against high HP monsters, but the guaranteed slow effect certainly is. And as bcadren pointed out, you need no Throwing skill for curare to be useful.

[bcadren]

Let me just call it as I see it (complete restructure suggestion):

Melee as it stands could basically be defined like this:
Fighting - Generalist; ups all melee damage and HP; usually trained after a speciality, but positive to use.
Short Blades - Low Damage; specialized for 'Stabbing' (damaging a monster who doesn't see you) best for sneaking/assassins.
Long Blades - Highest Base Damage Melee for most characters.
Axes - Lower Damage than long blades; but 'Cleave' effect, causing damage in 7 spaces around the target; good for crowd clearing.
Polearms - Roughly equal base damages to Axes; Adds evoked 'reach' effect allowing you to attack from two spaces away. Making it great for kiting or use with Fedhas' Walking Mushrooms.
Staves - For non-magic users they are essentially weaker swords, even the rare Lajatang has low attack compared to long blades. Useful mostly for spellcasters as Enhancer staves, which they'd commonly use get boosted by this skill, evocations and related magic schools.
Maces and Flails - Non-unique in it's damage pattern; roughly equivalent in damage per hit to long blades. Split down the middle with whips that are weaker, but faster than Long Blades and Maces which are stronger, but slower. Doesn't cause hydras to develop multiple heads. Great Maces and Great Swords are roughly equal. Has some giant-sized only weapons, making it stronger for Trolls and other big weapon characters.
Unarmed - Uses no weapon. Weakest attack class at the beginning, but strongest at max level as it has the greatest power gain per level.

8 Total Melee Skills with 6 weapons skills; a base skill and the Unarmed skill.

Ranged could be restructured like this:
Aiming - Generally boosts accuracy and attack speed with ranged attacks, higher levels may allow shots to take a half-turn instead of a full turn or allow volleys (3-6 shots being a turn). Melee parallel: Fighting.
Blowguns - Low Damage; specialized for applying effects. Instead of always ignoring AC, it could have a skill check to ignore AC and do more damage (like stabbing). Only affects organics (similar to poison magic). [This is mostly a nerf.] Melee parallel: Short Blades. Cross Trains: Fire Lances
Fire Lances - [Medieval equivalent of modern firearms, small cannons and single-shot mortars, dating back to the late 13th century.] Slow, but high damage. If it finishes off one enemy, it will auto-damage the next with whatever damage it has left. Large characters may use full sized cannons. (Might be too modern for lore; IDK.) Melee parallel: Long Blades. Cross Trains: Blow Guns
Crossbows - Special: Ballista (large-species only) and Cheiroballistra (two-handed) variants may shoot multiple shots in a cone for crowd clearing. Melee parallel: Axes. Cross Trains: Bows
Boomerangs - [Note: The 'glaive' from the film Krull would actually work and is a five-spoked boomerang; through a four spoked would work better and only the classic two was common in tradition; real ones were used in hunting and can cut your hand off if you aren't careful.] Mulches if it hits a wall or fails to do any damage to a target (via a hit and failing to pass the AC, not via a miss), otherwise always returns to user; chance of hurting self relative to skill, lowered if using gloves; relatively low damage but acts like it always has piercing. Melee parallel: Axes. Cross Trains: Throwing
Bows - Special: may be aimed over enemies for direct targeting on targets 5-8 units away (second half of your line of sight). (Similar to smite targeting; but more limited.) Melee parallel: Polearms. Cross Trains: Crossbows, Slings
Throwing - Intended mostly as a Melee support ability (to help melee-focused characters deal with ranged enemies); damage is weaker, unless throwing a weapon, which you've also trained the associated melee skill of. Each weapon class has a stack-able implement for use in throwing (Kunai for Short Blades, etc.) and some special effect high-mulch rate throw weapons exist; the later are much like wands, rare and use up quickly. Melee parallel: Staves. Cross Trains: Boomerangs (You know, my knowledge of how this works now is limited, because all the Learn Bot says about throwing is "You probably don't want this. See {blowgun[1]} for the skill's effect on needles." which is also where my original premise of common knowledge that the skill is useless was from.)
Slings - For slinging! Staff Slings and miniature catapult versions available later. A strong go-to with blunt damage. Melee parallel: Maces and Flails. Cross Trains: Bows
Acrobatics - Uses no weapon; similar to a single attack and a controlled blink in one turn. (Though the blink is to melee range of an enemy and you damage yourself if you miss; somewhere between Final Fantasy's Dragoon Jump, Pokemon's High Jump Kick and a real life running tackle.) May be used to pass a 2-3 squares of deep water or lava. Damage is highest if the enemy is 8 squares away (end of your LOS). Melee parallel: Unarmed. (Alright I'll admit this one is a stretch; but hell, you have to admit, if you were melee in your focus, you might use it). Cross Trains: Dodging

9 Total Range Skills with 7 Weapons skills; a base skill and the Unarmed Skill

[Speleothing]

Let me just call it as I see it (complete restructure suggestion):

Ranged could be restructured like this:

Aiming, Blowguns, Firearms, Boomerangs, Bows, Crossbows, Throwing, Slings, Acrobatics

9 Total Range Skills with 7 Weapons skills; a base skill and the Unarmed Skill

The concept has merit, but your Boomerangs are a terrible idea, and ideas similar to your Acrobatics proposal have been raised many times and shot down every time. Also, I see no reason to split firearms & crossbows.

As it stands, just having a weapon for normal sized races above javelins would probably be enough of a change to throwing.

[jejorda2]

There used to be a ranged combat skill that you could train in addition to bows/crossbows/darts/slings/throwing. It wasn't clear what it did that the launcher skill didn't do, and it was removed.

[bcadren]

The concept has merit, but your Boomerangs are a terrible idea, and ideas similar to your Acrobatics proposal have been raised many times and shot down every time. Also, I see no reason to split firearms & crossbows.

Thanks, though I don't see why a Boomerang is so different; it's basically a Shock Spell with an HP cost, instead of an MP cost. I figured that Acrobatics might be shot down in a hurry, but I still put it out there. And yea you're probably right on fire lances...it was a brainstorm though.

[Matanui3]

perhaps make weapons use their enchantments and egos when thrown (besides just Returning)?

[BlackSheep]

Thrown weapons already use their enchantment values.

[Amnesiac]

If they use return brand, why don't they use other trollface.jpg

[BlackSheep]

There's no reason they couldn't, but the in-game reason is that the brand doesn't manifest itself until the weapon is wielded. As soon as you let it go, the brand fades.

[Amnesiac]

To be serious, I think that it would just be imbalanced to let both enchantment and brand work while for darts and ammunition there are only brands

[dck]

Yeah, god forbid chucking a hand axe of flaming would have a slightly higher chance of dealing four damage instead of three.
Even if you make things like dist work with throwing it'd still have the big problem of just having thrown a weapon of distortion at the enemy who will now pick it up and hit you with it or chuck it back at you.

[roctavian]

Throwing is pretty good for the main part, I think. I do feel it could be interesting if there were a naturally-returning throwing weapon type (chakram, boomerang, whatever) that has base damage somewhere between darts and javelins (closer to darts), doesn't mulch, and can be affixed with other, non-returning brands (maybe). Javelins should remain the most damaging throwing weapon, but having something that you can use over and over again would do a lot for many players.

[DracheReborn]

Throwing is pretty good for the main part, I think. I do feel it could be interesting if there were a naturally-returning throwing weapon type (chakram, boomerang, whatever) that has base damage somewhere between darts and javelins (closer to darts), doesn't mulch, and can be affixed with other, non-returning brands (maybe). Javelins should remain the most damaging throwing weapon, but having something that you can use over and over again would do a lot for many players.

That's basically your handaxe/spear/dagger of returning, isn't it? Except that you can't get another brand on it.

[XuaXua]

I am of the opinion that, much like Reaching has been integrated, Returning, Piercing, Speed, and Vorpal should be innate brands that can be doubled-up on with other brands.