Antimagic and MP

[argonaut]

I'd like to propose that the antimagic brand does not reduce your max MP and instead acts as double de-enhancer to all spells. ("You feel a numb sensation")

Two main reasons:
1) It would work much better with guardian spirit. Guardian spirit seems like it should be a great berserker amulet (what else would you do with your MP?) - and it is until Trog dumps an antimagic weapon on you.
2) It gets annoying to see your MP bouncing all over the place as you switch weapons.

I've played a couple berserkers recently with great MP (HE and Sp) and ranged (longbow/crossbow) options so it really was very obvious whenever I switched to melee.

[Amnesiac]

Berserkers don't suffer as much from it as other backgrounds do. If it at least reduced your MP by 1/3, not 2/3...

[jejorda2]

Let it give a slowly-decaying status that inhibits spellcasting, so switching weapons to cast isn't viable.

[Sandman25]

Let it give a slowly-decaying status that inhibits spellcasting, so switching weapons to cast isn't viable.

That would remove some crazy tactics like hitting monster with antimagic weapon, swapping to Staff of Earth (optionally evoking CBoE) and finally using LCS/Iron Shot/Shatter.

[reaver]

1) It would work much better with guardian spirit. Guardian spirit seems like it should be a great berserker amulet (what else would you do with your MP?) - and it is until Trog dumps an antimagic weapon on you.

This is a good thing. It's called "emergent behavior" or "depth," and it's one of the things which make Crawl fun for years on end. For similar reasons, it's also good that antimagic can disable 'a' abilties which use MP (e.g. Lugonu abilities).

[jejorda2]

Let it give a slowly-decaying status that inhibits spellcasting, so switching weapons to cast isn't viable.

That would remove some crazy tactics like hitting monster with antimagic weapon, swapping to Staff of Earth (optionally evoking CBoE) and finally using LCS/Iron Shot/Shatter.

By inhibit, I meant a penalty like the double negative enhancer referred to in the OP, not a maxwell-style complete prohibition on casting. Enhancers don't have any impact on spell success or miscast rate, so your strategy would still be viable if skills are high enough.

[Sar]

I think he was sarcastic - if you can cast, say, LCS, why would you waste turns on wielding anti-magic, closing in melee, hitting dude, switching weapons, replenishing mana and then casting LCS... just cast LCS.

[dck]

You can also keep hitting the monster with antimagic instead which is probably working just fine if you're considering silly stuff like switching to a staff of earth to chuck a LCS his way.
Thing is, you can only reasonably expect AM if you're with Trog and Trog fortunately disables this tedious "plan". If you're not with Trog and you've stumbled upon AM and have access to extremely high level offensive spells like shatter/LCS then you probably are invested in magic enough that reducing your MP pool to 1/3 of its normal size will be a -bad- thing, and you will probably be better served by lots of other weapons.

[Sandman25]

Let it give a slowly-decaying status that inhibits spellcasting, so switching weapons to cast isn't viable.

That would remove some crazy tactics like hitting monster with antimagic weapon, swapping to Staff of Earth (optionally evoking CBoE) and finally using LCS/Iron Shot/Shatter.

By inhibit, I meant a penalty like the double negative enhancer referred to in the OP, not a maxwell-style complete prohibition on casting. Enhancers don't have any impact on spell success or miscast rate, so your strategy would still be viable if skills are high enough.

Well, with double-negative enhancers the spell damage would be negligible even with 27 levels in every skill. No, I am not sarcastic and have never used the described tactics, I am just thinking about possible side effects.

[DracheReborn]

I think he was sarcastic - if you can cast, say, LCS, why would you waste turns on wielding anti-magic, closing in melee, hitting dude, switching weapons, replenishing mana and then casting LCS... just cast LCS.

I don't think it's that crazy, if you're fighting a Pan lord or similar dude. With the right terrain and positioning it should be possible to get to melee range without exposing yourself. Hitting the dude with AM means the dude isn't summoning fiends or casting LCS/torment/hellfire, after which you should have a few turns to finish him off (with LCS or whatever your best damage weapon/spell is).

Two main reasons:
1) It would work much better with guardian spirit. Guardian spirit seems like it should be a great berserker amulet (what else would you do with your MP?) - and it is until Trog dumps an antimagic weapon on you.
2) It gets annoying to see your MP bouncing all over the place as you switch weapons.

Dunno, those don't seem like compelling reasons to ask for a change. Guardian spirit isn't an essential part of Trog (nice to have, sure, but not essential) and certainly you should expect some species to be less optimal for Trog than others.

[mikee]

You can also keep hitting the monster with antimagic instead which is probably working just fine if you're considering silly stuff like switching to a staff of earth to chuck a LCS his way.
Thing is, you can only reasonably expect AM if you're with Trog and Trog fortunately disables this tedious "plan". If you're not with Trog and you've stumbled upon AM and have access to extremely high level offensive spells like shatter/LCS then you probably are invested in magic enough that reducing your MP pool to 1/3 of its normal size will be a -bad- thing, and you will probably be better served by lots of other weapons.

What I'm worried about is casters who go trog so they can get a nice antimagic weapon. Then, when they see a dangerous spellcaster, they hit it with the antimagic weapon, remove the weapon, abandon trog, and lcs it. After the fight they wield the weapon again and rejoin trog to remove the wrath. You might even say that this sort of tactic is a no brainer.

[Sar]

@DracheReborn: bots say that "Miscast chance for monsters increases based on damage dealt (with the weapon), decreasing every turn", which sounds to me like you better have a really antimagic good weapon, and if you have a really good antimagic weapon and good enough defences to melee a Panlord you might as well continue meleeing him.

[dck]

when they see a dangerous spellcaster, they hit it with the antimagic weapon, remove the weapon, abandon trog, and lcs it. After the fight they wield the weapon again and rejoin trog to remove the wrath.

how trivialising

[tasonir]

You can also keep hitting the monster with antimagic instead which is probably working just fine if you're considering silly stuff like switching to a staff of earth to chuck a LCS his way.
Thing is, you can only reasonably expect AM if you're with Trog and Trog fortunately disables this tedious "plan". If you're not with Trog and you've stumbled upon AM and have access to extremely high level offensive spells like shatter/LCS then you probably are invested in magic enough that reducing your MP pool to 1/3 of its normal size will be a -bad- thing, and you will probably be better served by lots of other weapons.

What I'm worried about is casters who go trog so they can get a nice antimagic weapon. Then, when they see a dangerous spellcaster, they hit it with the antimagic weapon, remove the weapon, abandon trog, and lcs it. After the fight they wield the weapon again and rejoin trog to remove the wrath. You might even say that this sort of tactic is a no brainer.

I don't find this idea plausible in the least. For one, you can't rejoin him without being at an altar, so you'd likely face wrath on your way back at least some of the time as you got further and further from altars. And how would you pop out of pan/abyss at will? Secondly, while you'd be non-trog for the kills of "dangerous spellcaster", you'd presumably still be worshipping trog for normal mobs, and thus wouldn't be able to train spellcasting skills for anything but the one mob you abandon for.

If it was intended as satire which claims that dck's idea is implausible, I find it quite possible for a caster to want to use an anti-magic weapon. They cannot now because of the 1/3 mana pool, but if that was removed, it would be easily viable. Finding such a weapon would be rare, but so are vampiric weapons, and people still appreciate finding those.

[dck]

Man this place sure is something ain't it.

[tasonir]

Man this place sure is something ain't it.

You should have seen when I first started hanging around, I tried many posts to accomplish two things:

1) Update the wiki and get more people to fix all the out of date things there.
2) Convince people Chei wasn't a terrible god and could actually be newbie friendly once you learned to deal with the slow movement speed. I was also playing nagas. (this was version .10, so they at least started with constriction, which makes it possible)

Neither of these things worked at all. I still love the tavern though

[dck]

Chei -is- the worst god in game by far and teaches newbies all sorts of bad stuff if they start out with him though.
I know because when I started playing nagas had op constriction from xl 1 and I saw this "synergy" between a slow race and the god of slow but later down the road I realized just how god awful it all was.