Sethygir: Sea God and Water Addition

[dpeg]

Trying to add some actual content. Had a little email conversation with the OP; this is my take on the proposal (it is quite a deviation form bcadren's suggestion but certainly and obviously inspired by it).

Theme: Water is good, land is bad. Does not mean you should be a killing machine in water and punished when fighting on land.

Piety: gain for killing land lubbers; piety bonus for killing fire and earth themed monsters; loss over time (perhaps loss only outside of water but probably problematic).
Something for flavour: can activate dry fountains (0 piety, could be passive) and gain some piety for this.

Passive: slower movement on land; quicker movement in water (movement only on purpose). No floundering at 0; swimming (like ice beast) at *; fully aquatic (like merfolk/octopode) at *** --- this progression is mostly for flavour (you become more at one with the god's element). By the way, unlike with Beogh, with this god you should never drown from loss of piety.

Active powers: forms.
The god provides three forms, one for *, ***, ***** each. Every power creates water for the creature (more with piety); this newly added water slowly vapourises over time. Being in a form also has higher piety loss. Except for merfolk form, these forms run out when the player leaves water (so at the very latest when the player enters a staircase).
*: electric eel
***: merfolk (can walk on water and wear/wield items like the player species; no change of aptitudes)
*****: kraken (including long-range, manifold, strong constriction and ink, i.e. fog, ability)

I think forms are underused for gods, and water tends to provide some. I also believe that creating water as an ability is problematic (unlike Fedhas, it comes up early), so I tried to approach it in a different way. It would seem natural to have "current" (change water flow) abilities when in water but I couldn't find a way to make it abuse-proof (e.g. if you get a power "drift away", where the current drifts things away from the player, then that'd be an incentive to abuse with polearms and spells). It would certainly be possible to beef the deity with allies and/or power tool (conjurations) but those are common god powers and I wanted to come up with novel stuff first.

Flavour background: theme has changed a bit; this would not be about creating puddles in various ways anymore, but rather about proving water's superiority by taken cues from those who live in it.

Gameplay background: you get access to an early ranged attack; you get access to a permanent form which allows you to wear all armour (this is a very unique power!); and the kraken would be an appropriately flashy ability to wreak havoc to monsters in all of LOS. The god comes with a pretty strong conduct (slow movement on land) and may need more power.

[DracheReborn]

Whoa. Other than flavour, this proposal doesn't leave much of OP's proposal intact. Not that it's necessarily a bad thing.

you get access to a permanent form which allows you to wear all armour (this is a very unique power!);

I've thought about a god whose final power lets you change your race, but I didn't go very far with it since it seemed very prone to abuse. In your merfolk form proposal, for example, I can see huge benefits for characters who were originally Fe, Sp, Og, maybe Op/Ce/Ha/Ko/DD as well (assuming aptitudes don't change as you stated). This would depend a bit on how racial mutations are handled in merfolk form - for example, Ce in Mf form would be good if they keep the fast mutation, while DD in Mf form would be good if they lose the slow healing mutation. But Fe is especially problematic. Having multiple lives on a normal size form with full defense slots seems too good. And what aptitudes will Fe get for weapon skill, armour, etc. These aren't defined currently.

I guess my main objection is that this god won't be the "god of water" under this proposal, it will become the god of anyone who is unhappy with his current defense slots. Maybe there is indeed space for a "god of forms" but IMO it kind of overrides the water theme OP was going for.

[savageorange]

dpeg: personally I find your take much more compelling than bcadrens.
One question:

No floundering at 0; swimming (like ice beast) at *; fully aquatic (like merfolk/octopode) at *** --- this progression is mostly for flavour (you become more at one with the god's element). By the way, unlike with Beogh, with this god you should never drown from loss of piety.

Are you stating that as a requirement, or as a consequence of what you already described? In the latter case, it does not seem to follow. If you hang around in deep water (eg for targeting advantages) and lose piety over time, it should be possible to drop below * and promptly drown.

(unless 'no floundering' also includes something like Djinn's hover, but that seems OP)

I do agree with DracheReborn that the merfolk form is potentially quite abusable. Anyway I just wanted to mention, no one has directly brought up wrath.
With your proposal it would only occur on abandonment.

Some possibilities:
* chance of summoning hostile water/amphibious creatures into water when any is in LOS
* spontaneous 'Rain' effect randomly applying somewhere in your LOS (though this is obviously unsuitable for Mf.). Mainly to make escape situations harder.
* Shallow water tiles spread over time (same caveat as above, this seems awfully thematic though
* chance of 2-3 radius blink when you attempt to enter water (blinking into deep water being allowed)

[Tiber]

No floundering at 0; swimming (like ice beast) at *; fully aquatic (like merfolk/octopode) at *** --- this progression is mostly for flavour (you become more at one with the god's element). By the way, unlike with Beogh, with this god you should never drown from loss of piety.

Are you stating that as a requirement, or as a consequence of what you already described? In the latter case, it does not seem to follow. If you hang around in deep water (eg for targeting advantages) and lose piety over time, it should be possible to drop below * and promptly drown.

(unless 'no floundering' also includes something like Djinn's hover, but that seems OP)

That seems pretty easy to implement to me. Even if your piety drops below the threshold, your ability to swim isn't actually taken away until you move onto land or shallow water.

[galehar]

If you hang around in deep water (eg for targeting advantages) and lose piety over time, it should be possible to drop below * and promptly drown.

Piety: gain for killing land lubbers; piety bonus for killing fire and earth themed monsters; loss over time (perhaps loss only outside of water but probably problematic).

Not losing piety in water would help

[5ubbak]

Just to be sure, is the Merfolk form non-expiring in your proposal? Are you still affected by slow movement on land while in this form? Can you use the ability again to generate more water?

I think this god should have an ability to create a temporary pool of water, but it goes away as soon as you leave it for a few turns, so you wouldn't be able to use it to lure monsters to it and kill them. This would mostly reward a "stand and fight" playstyle, but I don't see any reason why that would be a bad thing, and that style is already favoured in several branches (Orc, Spider, maybe Forest although I have never been there so i can't really know).

[dpeg]

DracheReborn: Yes, I know that form change is drastic. Giving it to a god seems appropriate, as it is a rule change after all. What I had in mind was changing your body, nothing else. In effect, you would be able to use all armour (except for boots) but no innate mutations would come or go beyond that. It is a bit far-fetched but it does solve the long-standing question of "I found this amazing Crystal Plate Mail on my spriggan"

DracheReborn: Yes, the water is used as a thematic device to carry a gameplay change, but I think that is actually alright. The forms *are* water-related, after all. I just think that (only) going with water-related summons and/or damage effects is not good enough (in the sense of diverse design, not of power) --- we don't really need Puddle Makhleb.
Fair enough if you say that my proposal tosses out bcadren's original proposal with the bathwater. I cannot offer any consolation, except that this is about communication and I wouldn't have come up with any of this without bcadren's original proposal. (Like I said, we exchanged a number of emails on the matter, too, and I only take it to the forum because that seems to have stalled.) Also, bcadren's slow movement on land is in, which I think is a great idea.

savageorange: By "no drowning" I meant that you lose the ability when you're back on land, like Tiber said. I never care too much about wrath effects when designing a god but your proposals look good to me.

galehar: But I want the forms to *cost* piety. Especially with semi-permanent merfolk form (i.e. you don't lose it when stepping out of water, you have to turn it off as an 'a'bility), there'd be an additional piety clock which I'd hate to lose for balancing purposes.

[MoogleDan]

I should hope that the merfolk form would last a while, as going from felid to merfolk would require re-wearing all the armour that pops off every time you shift back. That kind of repetition could get really old, really fast. One thing that could be done to lightly prevent them from abusing these sudden new equipment slots would be to NEVER give them access to weapon or armour skills; any skill that was N/A from the start could be treated as zero. Even with opposable thumbs, cat brains just don't grock how clothing and cudgels and crossbows work.

[DracheReborn]

DracheReborn: Yes, I know that form change is drastic. Giving it to a god seems appropriate, as it is a rule change after all. What I had in mind was changing your body, nothing else. In effect, you would be able to use all armour (except for boots) but no innate mutations would come or go beyond that. It is a bit far-fetched but it does solve the long-standing question of "I found this amazing Crystal Plate Mail on my spriggan"

The issue I see here is that as a god ability, being able to get full defense slots ranges from overpowered for certain races (Fe, Sp, etc) to being practically useless for others (Hu, HO, HE, and worst of all, Mf). Can't imagine how to balance that, short of just barring Sp/Fe from this ability (which kinds of defeats the purpose).

I would absolutely like to have form change/race change as a feature in the game though. Maybe it works better as an unrand? How about a Belt of Race Change? As a slightly altered take on the classic Belt of Gender Change

[dpeg]

DracheReborn: if you want form change, then I'm pretty sure that a god is a much better devide than a randart: with the god, you have access to limitless balancing screws, not so with an item. I am not really convinced that allowing spriggans access to body armour is really overpowered, by the way: the pay with their god slot, and with reduced movement speed.

[DracheReborn]

with reduced movement speed.

Ah, this is the part I missed. Which mutations do they keep and which do they lose when they go into Mf form? So if Sp loses fast movement mutation, does DD lose slow healing? Do Te keep innate flight? Or Na slow movement?

pay with their god slot

Well, presumably the god has other abilities, to tempt the normal sized races. Sp can use those too.

[spudwalt]

One thing that could be done to lightly prevent them from abusing these sudden new equipment slots would be to NEVER give them access to weapon or armour skills; any skill that was N/A from the start could be treated as zero. Even with opposable thumbs, cat brains just don't grok how clothing and cudgels and crossbows work.

I agree with MoogleDan, though my opinion is that merfolk form should retain all species equipment restrictions; after all, we have a precedent with some Felid transmutations. For example, characters in Dragon Form can still use wands except for Felids, who are never able to use wands regardless of form.

As for which other mutations are kept, I'd say do the same thing as other form changes -- things like altered movement speed or physical mutations (scales, horns, etc.) should be repressed while in merfolk form, but stuff like Acute Vision or Spit Poison are retained.

One thing I'm not really sure on is what exactly merfolk form does for you that the god's other bonuses don't. Does it just give you the same maneuverability in water that a merfolk has (as opposed to just giving you the ability to swim)? If I were doing this, I would have it as a passive bonus: at ***, permanently put the character in an aquatic form that gives them a movement/EV bonus in water (maybe not quite as much as a true merfolk to prevent the whole "drag everything back to nearest puddle" thing people are talking about). You'd still be balanced out by the slow movement on land; better yet, this could be the source of the slow movement (you can't move well on land with your flippers).

Speaking of slow movement, what do we do with naga worshipers? Do we slow them down more?

By the way, unlike with Beogh, with this god you should never drown from loss of piety.

How about penance? Would that still kill you? (Assuming there's a way to put yourself in penance while worshiping the god.)

[and into]

The idea of reversible but non-expiring form change to Merfolk is interesting, but what racial aspects would you keep and which would you discard? I don't necessarily think it is overpowered to keep all, or nearly all, racial traits while being a Merfolk, this would just have to be balanced in some other way by Sethygir's conduct. Either way this form change this should be the "game-changer" strategic power of this god, like Kiku's guaranteed pain brand.

One option: Change to Merfolk form while keeping all racial traits, but as a temporary (but long-lasting compared to other transmutations) activated ability, which you can end through the abilities menu. Only racial trait you *lose* by going Mer-form is ability to equip certain species-specific stuff (Octopodes' 8 rings, bardings).

*First time only* when you change to Merfolk it undresses you completely, you put on whatever you want, including anything you already had equipped that you wanted to wear. From then on, when you leave Mer-form, anything you have on that you cannot wear in your normal form is automatically "Kept in Davy Jones' locker" ( ) by Sethygir, and later automatically re-equipped instantaneously if and when you re-enter Mer-form. Any wardrobe changes you make while Mer-mutated are similarly "stored."

This would streamline item-swapping, aside from a very minor inconvenience the first time you use the ability. If your piety drops too low to change to Merfolk, or if you abandon him, Sethygir returns your stuff. (It would make sense for him to destroy it as part of penance, but then this just means that you change to Mer-form before leaving, drop all the stuff, change back, then renounce religion, no need to introduce that scummy measure.)

This transmutation would be extremely powerful for many races (Spriggans and Nagas and Draconians, Felids, Ogres, Trolls—though for the last three, more like, "powerful by making the species a lot less awful"), but as an activated ability it would not be overpowered in my opinion. Could also have a cool-down timer if necessary, and of course a significant (finesse-level I think) piety cost. It would be underpowered for certain species, but that's completely fine IMO, it would be powerful and interesting for many species, some of which do not have many interesting choices in the game.

EDIT: Or, transmutation is permanent, but has a decent up-front piety cost, and then drains piety at a constant rate that is faster than you'll be able to maintain it, so you cannot (and will not want) to stay in the form permanently, but must switch back when the Mer-form is not needed. Making it easy to spend a lot of time as Merman at will, at the cost of piety, is a good mechanic, but zero-cost maintenance permanent transmutation is less interesting, presents less decisions (about when to use), and introduces other balance considerations. Also, making the mer-form unable to train skills that are now useful to the form would be a really frustrating and unenjoyable way to balance a god ability. "Oh, you can use these things, just... no, not really, actually you can't." Might as well "balance" a god ability by making your skill growth go back to 0.8-style victory dancing while you are using it.

[Daggtex]

A large complaint here is things like felids gaining the ability to use armor and weapons as a merfolk. What if instead of a merfolk, certain species turned into different things? For instance, maybe a felid could be a catfish (like half cat half fish, but obviously in homage to the actual catfish). It would fit thematically (turning into an aquatic version of what you are) and it would allow continued restriction on slots for balancing. And, these alternate forms could be extended to other "problem" races.

As side notes, Merfolk should probably get to be like a super Merfolk or something (or go the other way and can be a man). It seems silly to gain a power that allows you to transform into yourself. And what happens to mutations? An undead turns merfolk, mutates normally, then goes back and keeps them maybe?

[spudwalt]

What if instead of a merfolk, certain species turned into different things? For instance, maybe a felid could be a catfish (like half cat half fish, but obviously in homage to the actual catfish). It would fit thematically (turning into an aquatic version of what you are) and it would allow continued restriction on slots for balancing. And, these alternate forms could be extended to other "problem" races.

That's what I was thinking.

Also, am I the only person who would really enjoy seeing altered tiles for the aquatic version of your character? You could have a felid or centaur with flippers like a sea turtle or something.

Races that are already aquatic (merfolk/octopode) and the undead races would be problematic for the form change, though. Granted, not all species are well-suited for (or even accepted by) all gods, so I guess it wouldn't be too huge of a problem if they already had some of the benefits from the sea god.

[savageorange]

^^ THIS.
I have some concerns about whether it will be possible to balance well, though.
Also we need more sea/water types of monsters to use (for example, what large water creatures do we have that would be adequate for a final transformation of Large species like Trolls and Ogres?)
If we did the 'species-specific forms' thing we would probably also want to only have 2 options rather than 3, to moderate the coding burden (~54 possibilities rather than 81)

Some form brainstorming (forms are listed in no particular order):

* Dr : Hydra, <foo> dragon (according to Dr color)
* Ga : Stonefish? haha
* Mi : Shark
* Ko : Jellyfish
* Na : Merfolk
* Sp: Piranha?


^
Merfolk and Octopode could lose a level of forms (that is, have only two forms available, at *** and ****** piety -- unless we want to favor them particularly, in which case at * and ****). Depending on how favorably kraken form compares to normal Octopode, that might be fine to keep as the second Op form.

Mu and Gh worshippers are problematic in general (logically they should rot on long exposure to water)

[and into]

The whole reason why dpeg's take on this theme is interesting, at least to me, is that it would give an option for Felids, etc., to have full body slots. Without that the idea is a bit bland honestly, because... "woo hoo, I'm in water, just got a sweet +3 EV and small speed boost" is not all that interesting.

Gods are allowed to have powerful effects. Maybe the whole "let weirdo races wear armor if they worship this newfangled sea god" is not a good path to go down, I don't know, but I don't think the reason not to go down it has anything to do with being "overpowered." I find it intriguing, at least. It would certainly add a new element to the game, and can do so (as may be appropriate) only at a very high expense (definitely god choice, plus whatever conduct for Sethygir).

[dpeg]

and_into captures well why I made the proposal in the first place. The idea itself might not work out, but I haven't seen it before, considered it thematically fitting and wanted to put it up for discussion. A more tame god proposal would dispense with the merfolk form and use something else instead. I'm also uneasy about the god's lessened appeal for normal size characters, including the merfolk species. One way to circumvent this problem is by making the water god a minor deity, as in bcardren's original proposal (i.e. it would not feature in the Temple or the overflow alters). That way, the water god would have a guaranteed presence (if late, like Jiyva), and would exist as a godly rule-change to those bodily handicapped.

If we want to the beef up the god to standard proportions, then I think the piety rules and the conduct are quite solid, so we "only" need good enough powers

[1010011010]

Why have a god that can turn you merfolk when you can just pick merfolk.

[JARG]

Hi, I really think this idea holds promise in adding some unique features. I'm sorry this post is so long.

I am worried that some of it's design principles are in conflict though.
-Power from terrain is a great concept // but most of the games I've played, water seems relatively rare
-Form changes are great // but I feel like there are too many for a god that is not specifically about shapeshifting
-Water provides for a wide set of themes(steam/fog, ice, breath, electric, metamorphosis/amphibians, corrosion, etc)
//The suggestions seem very water-bound, rather than water reinforcing(I definitely don't want more rain from a god, but it'd be nice if 70% of the game weren't trying to find your next water fix)
-It seems strange to spend all that time gathering piety from land creatures and yet have this odd fixation with water // I like the idea of making sacrifices(corpses or items) in water but it feels too tedious

I understand the whole "discourage land" theme but...
-Slowing seems very chei (what about lowering the encumbered/burdened*or overall weight limit if you want to be very harsh* threshold out of water,*I realize that's much worse than just slower movement, particularly for UC, but its something that the player can mitigate by their own choices)

I believe it'd be better to treat it like the abyssal knight, you might come from and excel in the abyss, but you're sent out to "spread the word" so to speak(everything has an "abyss theme" but doesn't have to directly tie in). So to portray the water god as he moves with the follower... so YOU are the hurricane of destruction(gathers strength from water, and able to carry it over land even as it.

--------------------------
Specific suggestions/comments

I really like fog/steam and would love to see this play a part in the god's presence on land.
-Example: Create trails of fog like efreet (maybe as piety reduces so you can visibly see the piety leaving you)
-I have more but this post is getting pretty long, going to try and wrap it up

Passives can include everything from benefits for being in water(plenty of good suggestions already) to reinforcing your breath (like being able to use breath attacks more often, or giving you gills so you could go into deep water but are less efficient out of water)

I especially like the form changing as an active power choice. However, I do think that the ideas are a bit "busy" from a design standpoint. I would limit it to two forms max(unless form shifting was a major element of this god), with my personal preference being one. If I'm not mistaken the goal of the forms is to provide some salient measure of how the character will benefit from being in water, and while the kraken(and the eel kinda) is assuredly that, I believe that having a form which is able to exist outside of water(even if just for a limited time) is much more intriguing and relevant to the player. Just copying the merfolk layout also seems a bit strange to me as well. I feel that it both takes away from merfolk as well as the god(even though it might be exciting for some species).

I'm going to suggest an alternative though which I'll just call fluid form for now.
Given that it is a new form unique to this god, anything could be done with it, and it could modify any race without requiring special cases. Here's just a few suggestions for "fluid form":
-benefits for being in water(obviously)
-Light damage shaving (1-3)
-reactive countermeasure(like spines or passive freeze)
-passive attacks (like tentacles for a kraken)
-fog suggestions
-helps mitigate any land negatives for following Sethygir
-able to fit into any armor(preserves the best part of merfolk form) // maybe removes "deformed" mutations, or causes them (whatever is better for balance)
// anyway the appeal of a unique form is to give any race a reason to be interested and have utility outside of water, even if it isn't as efficient

Punishment suggestions:
-Breath "Leaves the character out of breath/unable to breathe" /drowning
-Blinding Fog "creates a fog that enemies can see through but the player can not in combat"

--------
A lot of these ideas could use some refinement, but I think it's good to get them out there for discussion. I really like the themes of fluidity, shifting/change, and breath/life. I'd love to see where this concept goes.

[dpeg]

You see, it's not my job to defend ideas against naysayers.

bitstring: read what and_into wrote.

JARG: well, the underlying question is how strongly "water" has to inform the god. I say it could be quite indirect. I really like your fog ideas, will comment more later on. Thanks for the long reply!

[dpeg]

Regarding merfolk form was exactly what and_into added above in his edit:

The transmutation is permanent, but has a decent up-front piety cost, and then drains piety at a constant rate that is faster than you'll be able to maintain it, so you cannot (and will not want) to stay in the form permanently, but must switch back when the Mer-form is not needed. Making it easy to spend a lot of time as Merman at will, at the cost of piety, is a good mechanic, but zero-cost maintenance permanent transmutation is less interesting, presents less decisions (about when to use), and introduces other balance considerations. (If you need to adapt the theme for your own proposal, just go ahead!)

I think the two are rather similar, and I wouldn't worry too much about which one to use. In my opinion, permanent merfolk form is more convenient, but I could be misled as the player has to manually turn it off (or otherwise loses piety unnecessarily). Needless to say, the interface should be as painless as possible, which can be achieved easily (as and_into also indicated).

and_into: Your wrath idea would still work: all items worn in merfolk form are marked as "belonging to the water god", and if you defect the deity they are destroyed. No turn in undressing and hiding them before: you wouldn't be able to use them nonetheless.
Also, making the mer-form unable to train skills that are now useful to the form would be a really frustrating and unenjoyable way to balance a god ability. "Oh, you can use these things, just... no, not really, actually you can't." Might as well "balance" a god ability by making your skill growth go back to 0.8-style victory dancing while you are using it.

JARG: Assuming that you address my proposal (as opposed to the original one), your comment about conflicting terrain does not hold water, in my opinion: the worshiper does not need water (except that movement in water is quicker), and the forms I suggested would create water to make the form splash about. The comment about "too many forms" is a stylistic one, because who decides that the god of water is not the one about shapechanging? (For something similar elaborate within Crawl, consider Ashenzari: curse flavour, divination gameplay). I really wouldn't worry about the flavour too much: with the god taking shape, it will be easy to find a perfectly functional theme.

Being able to create fog (active ability) is strong and thematic. It's a nice touch that you'd emit (smaller) fog every now and then. This makes it more clear that you are a sort of "water carrier". Conceiving of a completely new form is fair enough, but I did stick with three already existing ones for a purpose: that way, the player immediately knows what to expect: "I could be an electric eel" tells you the advantages (shoot electric beams!) and disadvantages (cannot leave water) right away, and so on. By the way, there is no need to be terse if you have to say something: just let it all out

[Daggtex]

I guess the only thing I still want to say right now is that merfolk counter-intuitively seem to gain the least from the form shifting. Perhaps mer-form could be implemented in such a way that it adds onto the current bonuses for a race, giving merfolk effectively double their original abilities while in the special mer-form. Otherwise this god of the sea bestows his most special children with nothing for that form shift besides 1)the possibility of accidentally draining piety and not even realizing that the form shift is in effect 2) an unnecessary attachment of their items to the god so that they would be taken should the player choose to switch religions (assuming the wrath system will end up as I understand it from here).

[spudwalt]

I like the idea of the water god's wrath involving asphyxiation damage/breathlessness. "You feel your lungs fill with water!"

I also like the idea of a water god giving you the ability to turn into water (which I'm assuming is what JARG's fluid form idea was going for). It could give you some sort of defensive boost (it's hard to fight a liquid - damage shaving would be neat, but other options would probably work fine) as well as a stealth boost while in water. The downsides would probably include stuff like fire vulnerability or faster piety loss while out of water. Maybe it might also mess with the ability to use equipment (though that would also mess with the idea of the water god giving you the ability to use equipment you couldn't normally use).

[dpeg]

I guess the only thing I still want to say right now is that merfolk counter-intuitively seem to gain the least from the form shifting. Perhaps mer-form could be implemented in such a way that it adds onto the current bonuses for a race, giving merfolk effectively double their original abilities while in the special mer-form. Otherwise this god of the sea bestows his most special children with nothing for that form shift besides 1)the possibility of accidentally draining piety and not even realizing that the form shift is in effect 2) an unnecessary attachment of their items to the god so that they would be taken should the player choose to switch religions (assuming the wrath system will end up as I understand it from here).

Are you aware that I addressed this very point a few posts above? Yes, it is an issue, and one obvious solution is to make this a minor god (not a temple god); flavour-wise this would translate into an offer to non-water affine specimen to become more water-like (and hence explain why merfolk are not the primary target audience); the other obvious solution is to come up with more powers.

[Daggtex]

@ dpeg: I understand that it would appeal more to other races with the set-up you described. I just think that seems counter-intuitive. A new guy like me who hasn't looked through this forum would see the god and think it would be a great choice to switch to as a merfolk, only to become confused as to the point of the merfolk form and begin to wonder what he/she is doing wrong when the form is tried out and the only things it does are negative (as outlined in my post). I'm sorry I wasn't very clear originally.

And please, take no disrespect (I massively respect you as a dev who actually interacts with the community), I simply think it strange (and have had this problem in some of the games I played before looking more into the gods) that the plant god didn't seem to compliment the plant character, and now this water god seems to not appear as favourable to the water character. As the noob at this game that I am, I think I can speak for other newcomers that these kinds of things are confusing.

Edit: And as you even said, another solution lies in the abilities offered, hence why I suggested doubling the merfolk's bonus in my earlier post.

[JARG]

*Realized that the long post I was working on never got posted

I'll try to sum it up(I don't remember all of it):

dpeg: I was mostly addressing you because, while aquamancy(which is a cool idea, but I just dont know what to say on the subject) caught my eye, form shifting drew me in.
I address and agree that the choice to limit the number of forms is stylistic. I think that particularly the eel is eclipsed by later forms. Suggest that maybe have as many forms as desirable, all accessible via singular piety-based ability so that it doesn't come across as quite so "busy". IE forms chosen from a pool of availability, with weighting depending on current piety. Or form is linked directly to piety. //I like Ashenzari's design quite a bit, and would love to see more creative passives from gods

spudwalt: I wasn't really going for a sort of "you become liquid" thing with the fluid form suggestion, I just needed a name and I like alliteration. I also wanted to preserve an explanation for fitting into things you'd otherwise be unable(that alone makes a god very compelling). It's definitely important to design negatives, but rarely are people hooked by the negatives, I'm still working on designing what would be a good draw.

Fog suggestions:
-spawn fog when taking hits of certain magnitude or in response to ranged attacks...
-fog scroll synergy (cast fog like a fireball?)
-special abilities which are enabled only while in fog (maybe some of the better aquamancy ideas)
//The duality of lowering your awareness as well as your enemies is one that I find striking and think would be fun to see work in as having some possible stealth, escape, or melee benefits

I was wondering if there was any suggestion of a piety/god interaction with potions? Maybe sacrificing them on dry fountains... or on a normal fountain to turn it sparkling(not a huge fan of this particular idea, just thinking aloud I guess)

Well, that's about all I recall. The focus was mainly on the forms and fog.

[dpeg]

Daggtex: I completely understand where you are coming from but while it is hard (also for me) one can try to look at the thing with completely fresh eyes. Suppose the description of the god would start like this: "Seth is the god worshiped by those who want to transmute themselves, more powerfully than even specialised spellcasters can. As the god resides in an unknown place in the deep sea, all forms offered are aquatic in nature. Pious followers can quickly turn into electic eels, later into merfolk, the sentinent sea dwellers, and finally into truly gargantuan kraken. However, due to the Sunken One's condition, worshipers will travel slightly slower when on land, but also slightly quicker when in water."
This is quite wordy but as you can see, everything could be explained and put into flavour boxes. However, a rounder god with more/different powers would be more appealing than a minor god -- I am convinced that the theme is rich enough to carry a temple god.

JARG: My sympathy for losing the text; I know very well how this hurts. For really long posts, I actually write them in an editor and then copy/paste into the browser.
Regarding eel form: sure it will be useful only for a short while (and actually it makes little sense to have this power when this god is *not* a temple god) but having something that allows you to deal with early dangers is good -- this is when the game is most dangerous. It is true that it is nicer if a god ability does not peter out but on the other hand this is not completely uncommon. Again, the goal was to hand out something to the player that's useful right away. (And I liked eel/kraken form because these are Crawl monsters, so players can switch into the hulls of two dreaded foes.)

Regarding fog: Having a trail (need not be continuous) of fog would make for nice flavour. At times, e.g. when taking damage, this would grow to become an actual fog area. Two notes: in general, damage taken is a pretty lousy trigger as it can lead to all sorts of bizarre behaviour -- here it might work out. Second, fog is a very strong effect because Crawl's monsters deal badly with it. Already unlimited access to fog scrolls via a god would be a strong power, in my opinion.

[JARG]

dpeg: I definately agree that unlimited fog-on-demand would be very powerful. I don't think that would be the best option, personally. And yeah, I like the eels I just wonder if they're the best fit(my choice would be a hydra whose headcount depends on piety level), just doesn't scream "god power" to me. That said, I'm always for salience so the kraken totally makes up for the eel(krakens would be so fun, I always wanted to play that type of multi-square monster like a tentacled starspawn or something).

//On the bright side, ANY deep-water amphibious form would allow (non merfolk) a deep-water stash ~the god taking/holding items is a very interesting concept as well

On another note, it's a shame that the many-faces theme is already occupied by xom, as I could see a forgotten sea god being very demanding and fickle.

And another theme that I keep mulling over is breath... it just seems to make sense. Short of giving a god-breath ability(like a force lance with more range/stun and less damage), I think it'd at least be cool to have some sort of passive breath support(even if it's a vehumet-like range increase) or some other form of breath upgrade(something like giving the breath ability a ray-treatment where if they do nothing else it casts another turn or two in the same direction)...

I also really like the idea of the whole "forgotten god" bringing back forgotten magic/power. The form changing actually makes perfect sense when you consider merfolk do it every time they step in and out of the water... (a passive form change like that might be interesting, no suggestions on it at this time though) So it'd be absolutely amazing if it provided some rare aqua powers(I think creating a whole spell school is a bit extreme) not tied to poision, ice, or Fedhas.

Regarding "Sunken One" I really like the title... but I have a rewording suggestion "Submerged" or somehow otherwise hidden, this sort of makes me think that the god is hard to find/obscured by choice, rather than marooned at the bottom of the sea. I think it would fit nicely if the fog thing becomes a feature. *but would no longer make much sense as a temple god imo if that were the case *

In no way am I recommending this but... it would be interesting if this god frowned on use of any form of fire or freezing(brands, MIGHT consider including magic if he offered a replacement for things like fire/ice storm). *that's the sort of thing that would make me think twice before picking a god(like dealing with curses for Ash)

[and into]

And another theme that I keep mulling over is breath... it just seems to make sense. Short of giving a god-breath ability(like a force lance with more range/stun and less damage), I think it'd at least be cool to have some sort of passive breath support(even if it's a vehumet-like range increase) or some other form of breath upgrade(something like giving the breath ability a ray-treatment where if they do nothing else it casts another turn or two in the same direction)...

I like this idea quite a bit! A breath-based, lower-damage version of the primal wave thing that aquamancers get is what you have in mind, I take it? (Or it could scale, start at lower power but gets up to decent level of damage, based on piety and character lvl?) Not guaranteed to knock back, depends on strength of wave and HD of monster, but overall works much better than force lance did.

Knockback is a cool mechanic potentially, but as a spell it was difficult to balance due to the possibility of spamming. On the other hand, not having it work very reliably made it like a really bad hex. Breath mechanic naturally balances a reliable knockback ability (via cool down) and it would make sense thematically. The whole idea of the god is that you become "one with the sea."

So: "Your breath is like a misty zephyr" / "...a strong sea breeze." / "... a powerful marine gale" / "... a mighty tempest" / "... a raging typhoon."

At higher levels it could even hit in a "wave" or cone shape, like dazzling spray, and knock back a few squares if the target has low enough HD compared to breath strength.

I wouldn't see this as an invocations-based ability, as it does not mesh with the flavor IMO (your worship connects you with the sea, you don't call on your god to do it) and, in addition, from a gameply and mechanics-perspective, it would seem a bit silly if you trained invocations for a single ability that is not really the focus of the god in the first place (rather the transformations are).

Anyway, this could become available at * piety and grow in power, staying potentially relevant and useful well into late game. In addition to the transformations, and perhaps some other thematic passive abilities, this is shaping up to be an interesting god!

In no way am I recommending this but... it would be interesting if this god frowned on use of any form of fire or freezing(brands, MIGHT consider including magic if he offered a replacement for things like fire/ice storm). *that's the sort of thing that would make me think twice before picking a god(like dealing with curses for Ash)

I'm not sure if that fits. Worshiping one of the holy gods in effect disallows necromancy, but I don't think cutting off whole spell schools is a good conduct in most cases. People will just use a background that doesn't interfere when they worship Seth, or else they just won't go with Seth if they really want to start as an Ice Elementalist. (At any rate, the real problem would be preventing all those elemental spells that you can cast long before Ice Storm or Fire Storm comes online.)

I don't think gods should offer replacements for things that are already available to players, for the most part. (Okawaru used to give you invocations-based haste, for instance, and this made him even less interesting and unique as a god choice.) This is why I liked the other part of your proposal, as the player (force lance and dragon form trample notwithstanding) doesn't have a lot of ways to knock back enemies reliably, and there are no divinely given breath powers. (Well, Zin's recite I guess, but that is rather different.)

[and into]

I hate to double-post, but I'm stuck at my computer for the next twenty minutes or so. I thought I'd try to compile some of the ideas so far worked out, with a little bit more work put into how this would work as a cohesive god.


Sethygir the Sunken

Appreciates: Killing landlubbers

"Rafter of Sethygir"
Piety ------ [i.e., upon joining]
Passive: You can swim gracefully through shallow and deep water without penalty. [EDIT: You can stash things in deep water and retrieve them, etc. etc. You are like a merfolk, only you don't get their benefits in water. You just don't get penalties of any kind while in water, it is like the water tile is not there. Compare to Fedhas's "walk through plants" ability.]
Passive: Sethygir initiates monsoon season.
[More water tends to spawn, scaling with piety. Even at max piety you won't ever get dungeon levels with as much water as swamp, say, but you will tend to get a couple of small lakes here and there at least, and some small puddles scattered around.]
Passive: You grow less comfortable on terra firma.
[Raising with piety level, you get a draining effect [EDIT: Trunk-version draining effect: Temporary malus to all skill levels] so long as you are out of LOS of water for more than 5 turns. The draining effect is very small at the start, but grows with piety, as your connection to the sea becomes stronger.]
Passive: Sea creatures may recognize you as their kin.
[Sea creatures MAY spawn neutral, scales with piety. Merfolk do not count here, nor hydrae, etc. Only animals that can submerge, basically, and maybe some exceptions amonst them should never spawn neutral—I have the Kracken in mind? Or maybe chance to spawn neutral scales with piety and is compared to monster HD, so kracken can spawn neutral, but only at high piety?]

"Seafarer"
Piety *-----
All passive abilities continue to develop, here and going forward.
Additional abilities: Breath of the Sea (Piety cost: 0; Food cost: Small; Breath)
Breath attack with knockback component (random or based on target's AC), breath timer. Damage scales with piety and character level. Roughly twice (three times?) as powerful as Naga's spit poison in terms of damage, at full piety.
NOTE: At piety *** upgrades to a cone-based attack like dazzling spray. Any enemy knocked back by the upgraded breath has a flat chance (25%?) to be knocked back two squares.

"Boatswain"
Piety **----
Additional Abilities: Form of Eel (Food, small piety cost, times out)
Turn into electric eel. If not in water, Sethygir will provide a puddle beneath you. Your breath attack turns into an electric bolt. All slots merged except jewelry (I guess?), but you gain a boost to EV that is on par with spider form. Can end transmutation through menu.

"Deck Cadet"
Piety ***---
Additional Abilities: Form of Merfolk (or "Form of Sea Nymph," to reduce confusion with player species?) (Food, medium piety cost, does not time out unless ended through abilities menu, constant piety drain while active)
Turn into "Sea Nymph" (Merfolk) will all armor slots and intrinsic traits of that race. You keep all intrinsic traits of your own race as well. When you go Merfolk first time, anything you equip that cannot be worn in your normal form will be stored on Sethygir's behalf in Davy Jones' Locker, and will instantaneously reequip should you re-enter merfolk form.

"Chief Mate"
Piety ****--
Additional abilities: Patronage of the Sea (Passive)
You are immune to hostile clouds of all types. You can see through fog and steam as if it were not there.
In addition, so long as water is within sight, the mist of the sea provides extra protection. If you have been in the presence (in LOS) of water for at least 5 (?) turns, fog will begin to accumulate behind you (providing a means to escape), and a rMissiles aura enrobes you.

"Captain"
Piety *****-
Additional Abilities: High Tide (Food cost; piety cost: High)
Sethygir steels his power to flood the level, providing additional sudden water spawns throughout the area. A level can be flooded only once.

"Commodore"
Piety ******
Additional Abilities: Kraken Form [OR: Summon Kraken!!] (Food cost, piety cost: VERY high)
Does what it says on the tin. Sethygir will provide a suitable lake if you are not on water tiles (but at a higher piety cost?)

[savageorange]

You are so far a remarkable contributor.

Just a few errata:

landluber

Not that Seth hating slugs is not amusing, but somehow I don't think that's what you meant.

rMissles

Of all the common typos I see, this by far is the most annoying one. It's not said 'missels' or 'missls', so why would it be spelt 'missles'?

Also, your use of the phrase 'permanent draining' is misleading (and terrifying!). I think what you are trying to describe is a Drain-like effect applying to you whenever you are out of LOS of water (with a 5 turn grace period). IOW it's temporary but only abates by applying the cure, not by the passing of time; much like Rot. 'Permanent' to me implies that there is no recovery, the condition will be there forever (for example DD's ability to permanently sacrifice max MP.)

[and into]

Savageorange: Yes to all your edits, thank you very much. Indeed, I meant the current drain like effect, with a noticeable but not crippling malus to all skills that doesn't time out (permanent definitely wrong word!), but will go away once you are back near water. I'll enter these edits back into the original proposal so as not to mislead others.

[spudwalt]

I'm liking what we've got going here. That draining effect sounds like it could be annoying in areas without much water, but I guess you'll be making quite a lot of your own water as you go.

I have to say, I like the idea of summoning a kraken better than turning into one. As fun as it would be to totally go all kaiju on your enemies' butts, it kinda sucks if you've been focusing on a weapon skill the entire game and suddenly have to engage in unarmed combat. I suppose we could let kraken form wield weapons, but that just seems kinda ridiculous (picture giant kraken tentacle poking things with tiny little dagger).

Would eel form have any sort of physical attack, or are you limited to spewing lightning bolts? If so, is your breath timer reduced at all?

[neil]

It's not said 'missels' or 'missls', so why would it be spelt 'missles'?

It is said that way in American English (the long-i pronunciation is also used there, but not as frequently).

[savageorange]

^ the same flavour of English that has 'Nukular' weapons. I should have known.

[and into]

sputwalt: Both good points. My thinking is that we should *try* to make kraken form a thing, and I'm sure there is stuff we can do to make it worthwhile without requiring a heavy investment in unarmed combat. While in kraken form maybe all your weapon and magic skills are added and averaged to something, modified by some factor, and you are given UC equal to that. This is a god ability, indeed a god's ultimate and most powerful ability, not a spell, so it can be a very special sort of transmutation (just like the Merfolk one granted at *** piety) that gives quite a bit of power.

Here's how breath attack would work I think: In merfolk transmutation, you keep your "Breath of the Sea" breath attack, same as in regular form (but perhaps gets a small boost to power?) In eel form, your breath power is replaced with electric bolts. In kraken form, your breath attack is replaced by ink cloud.

Note that ink cloud in kraken form would mainly be for "anti-ranged attack" purposes I think, unless you actually used kraken form in shoals or something, because you'll often be in relatively small bodies of water, which don't actually offer much in the way of fleeing. But if the cloud is relatively big, the protection it can provide for breaking LOS of yaktaurs etc. would be very powerful, and would help make the "you are limited to this body of water" property of kraken less potentially irritating for certain enemies. Your tentacles can extend beyond the pond you are in, but they creep slowly.

I think that in eel form, you get multiple electric bolts (damage scales with character level, like all breath attacks) before your breath timer kicks in. Like three or four or (x) bolts, then you are winded and have to wait. You can't spam bolts constantly, but on the other hand you don't have to wait after each bolt, which would be annoying and would be too limiting. Of course electric eel form gives rElec, also some decent (but less than spider form) EV, but brings AC down very low.

Eel form would have a weak unarmed melee attack, but it won't be very good. I think the bolts potentially winding you and weak unarmed attack are important, as each form should have some limitations in addition to their strengths. (It is fine if kraken form is just very powerful, as it will have a very high piety cost. That's already a limitation, plus you will like with eel be somewhat restrained in where you can move.)

If Mer-form (or "sea nymph form") needs a limitation, it could be that it intensifies your connection to the water: You get merfolk-esque bonus while actually in water (not just near it), but when you are away from water your skill malus that comes from worshipping Sethygir is magnified.

[siprus]

I'd give see races (merfolk and octopode) Some benefit, so this god wouldn't be silly for them. It makes little sense if god of sea isn't good for races which live in sea. (maybe bit extra evasion in water +2 and maybe some extra piety gain.

[and into]

I'd give see races (merfolk and octopode) Some benefit, so this god wouldn't be silly for them. It makes little sense if god of sea isn't good for races which live in sea. (maybe bit extra evasion in water +2 and maybe some extra piety gain.

This is partly what I tried to achieve already with my proposal. Sethygir will be a very very good choice (though for slightly different reasons) for both octopodes and Merfolk. Next, he is most useful for other "deformed" species that lack armor options, like Felids and Ogres. However, even for a human, I think the version of Sethygir I proposed, working from the ideas many others offered in this thread, holds up as a strong option, in some ways comparable to Fedhas I think, except weaker early on (because Fedhas's mushrooms are crazy good early game). Sethygir won't be as strong as Ash, certainly, but then again not every god can be the best.

[JARG]

and_into: I've taken some time to think about your revision, there's just a few things that bother me though.
-neutral sea creatures(the sea itself is very violent and my personal stylistic choice is that I don't think it fits)
-increased water spawn
"immune to clouds of all types" includes fire, miasma, poison... (really?)
-generating fog just by seeing water
-drain effect when away from water
-High tide

My issue with most of these that I've picked out is that they make it so much more water centric it's almost obscene. Of course I might be envisioning an extreme, but it all seems to tie the player even more solidly to water. Why ever not just run back to the water to fight? I wouldn't want to fight with drain effects(sounds like reverse heroism) when I could fight without them and expect fog that I can perfectly see through. Any negative seems more than offset by just being near or being able to summon water.

I do like the idea of tending away from the "Merfolk" specific form, or finding something that might also benefit something such as an octopode(if you lose the tentacles/8 rings, what's the point?). //That's sort of what my proposition was going for with the "fluid" form, just a template form that allows races to squeeze into armor they otherwise might not, but still explains why they retain their claws or tentacles. Specifically, I think for the races that do not already have armor skill, they should receive a heavy learning disability(to the extreme of -5 even)


Anyway, I've also been considering what the objective of this god is... From what I've been hearing, it kind of sounds like this:

"merfolk form": so far it is go-to god when you find something that makes you regret your species choice. The natural reaction is dismay of course, and this god would provide a solution to a situation that in any other case the player would just have to accept. You want to wear crystal plate as a spriggan? why not. This alone makes it a very radical god and even more radical solutions could be implemented(I might suggest a few in another post, they need more thought), but is this really good for the gameplay? The number of times I've spent hoping for a ring of regen(or insert equivalent), then finally deciding to play a mummy and finding one has been a bit more than annoying. So I'm all for designing a way to make a serious choice in order to open up otherwise closed options. On this basis alone I think the god should be a tougher choice than most(at least chei level).

The other forms: *shrug*, I think their built in deficiencies are more than apparent.

There's more to say, but I'm short on time and I think you get the gist of it.

[and into]

JARG: Thanks for the feedback, it is much appreciated and I think you raise several good poitns. I'll respond now and try to incorporate your criticisms (possibly editing my earlier proposal) at some point down the line.

Neutral sea creatures could stay or go, I don't think it required for the god, it is almost more like flavor. As I said, it wouldn't be a guaranteed thing even at full piety, wouldn't apply to merfolk, etc. But maybe it is best just to remove it. I'd be very flexible here as it isn't a major draw or design point for this god.

Immune to clouds... Yeah maybe too strong. Miasma isn't exactly common, but it represents a major danger to characters who aren't immune to it, which is most, and rPois doesn't protect, which makes it interesting. I honestly wasn't thinking about miasma when I wrote that, just the more mundane clouds. Maybe protection from clouds except miasma, as that cloud already seems to have a negative-energy magical kind of aura to it, I don't think it would be weird to make an exception? However I don't think cloud immunity (except maybe miasma) is too strong for a passive god ability, though it probably *should* scale (if it is retained) rather than just being given up front. Having it apply at the moment you join may be too much, I agree there.

The other things you listed can be taken altogether I think, as I see them as interrelated.



On the one hand, we want water to matter somehow, being near it or around it, as this is pretty much the core part of the original god proposal that has been consistently maintained. And I think we also all agree that a noticeable conduct (maybe not Chei level, but still considerable—more than Ash's (actually quite minor) penalty) is warranted, because there are already so many gods who just say, "Do what you would be doing anyway, just now get piety for killing dudes."

How we put those together is something that, again, I'm flexible. First, I'd say that the drain effect would be minor, and it would grow with piety. Even at max piety, I'm thinking it should be no worse than, say, somewhere around -1 or so to all skill levels. Maybe a little more than this at max piety, but again, we definitely are not talking about an "anti-heroism" that gives -5 to all skill levels, that would be far too much.

We are shooting for a noticeable malus at highest piety level, and only when you are away from water. I think that does weaken your character, but not so much that you are going to kite enemies across the level, because kiting everyone (rather than the occasional really slow guy or slightly slow but tough guy) is not only really tedious, but can be dangerous.

(People often ignore this fact, by the way! They focus on "hey, I get to kill this enemy 'risk-free,' cause he can't hurt me," but they don't consider the risk they potentially put themselves at when they back up through half a level—even a well-explored level—with one direction blocked off by the toughie they are kiting. (And if it isn't tough compared to your character, it is not worth kiting by definition, because it is tedious game play.) It is definitely worth it sometimes to kite, and in a lot of moderation can be kind of fun when you feel like you outsmart the occasional OOD. But it is something of a false economy, in terms of managing risks, to abuse kiting tough monsters, especially if they are only a bit slower than you.)

[As an aside: Purely from a design (rather than playing) perspective, there is ONE thing interesting about kiting, I think, in that while you do it, corridors become dangerous in a weird way that inverts normal game play. But I wouldn't want to encourage more kiting (because too much quickly becomes tedious) just to exploit this fact. However, I do think a few new monsters with some special movement pattern or characteristic could potentially exploit this... Maybe something that is normal speed, but tends to spawn a certain type of summon behind you, if you are running from it?... But that's another thread!]

Anyway, getting back to Sethygir: If we made the benefits and malus of this god dependent on water and then said, "That's it," there wouldn't be enough water generated for the god abilities to actually matter. This means either a.) making the malus meaningless, which kind of defeats the point; b.) relegating Sethygir to variant and challenge builds, rather than major god status. So I think having Sethygir tend to spawn water would help. Again it would just make it MORE likely, not guarantee it or put it everywhere. The devil is really in the details here: If water is everywhere, the god's bonus/malus system doesn't work.

Maybe the "monsoon" thing can be sporadic? (Which would kind of fit for the image of monsoon anyway. It is the rainy season, it can *feel* like a constant input of water, but it is not literally.) So in other words, every time you enter a NEW level, there is a FLAT chance that Sethygir will flood it. HOW MUCH he floods it depends on piety (scaling up). Would that be better? And certain places (wiz labs, for instance, maybe other places) can be exempted so they cannot ever be flooded, making them a bit more dangerous for Seth followers.

The idea with selectively flooding level would be to ensure that you have your abilities at their most powerful when you absolutely need it. But the piety cost would be VERY high. Maybe it also could carry an additional cost, like Max MP? (No god ability has this cost yet, only the DD wand recharge racial trait.) This means you would only use it when you have a VERY difficult level (like V5) that generates with no water on it, even with Seth's help.

A spriggan would only be able to wear CPA sporadically, for short periods. This is the most extreme case you could bring up, basically (other than, Felids in CPA I guess), and it would only be occasional. You'd have it as an activated ability, and you can leave it on, but the piety drain will be so fast that you can't maintain it indefinitely, and even doing it very frequently would in effect shut you off from all of Seth's other powers. This is strong, but is it really that much stronger than, say, what Ash or other gods do for you passively, all the time? There are god powers that will (nearly 100% of the time) save you from death, so long as you realize that death is very likely one turn before it happens. Hell, there are *spells* that do that. (At a considerable cost or risk, but who cares at that point?)

My suggested adjustment was to make the link to water VERY acute while in "sea nymph form" (or w/e we call it), meaning that being away from water might THEN give you something like "reverse heroism", based on current character level (maxing at negative five skill levels across board at x Lvl 27). So you couldn't use it all the time.

As for fog generation, etc.... Maybe that would work better as an activated ability too, but I think it is fine as a passive so long as it is not overpowering. That is a matter of details, I think—getting the number and pattern just right. I think it is thematic (like cloud protection—a protective foggy sea mist envelopes you, automatically displacing dangerous clouds) and unique. And it emphasizes this as a DEFENSIVE god, which is interesting, as so many gods focus on increasing your damage capabilities.

I'll just end by saying that I don't want the god to be grindy or involve lots of "luring back to water." However, a certain amount of this is fine, is tactical, and can even be fun. The Air Elementalist and Fedhas both have elements of this. Some people find them tedious, some people enjoy a slightly higher degree of tactical repositioning while fighting (rather than just "HOLD TAB" constantly), and in either case neither Fedhas nor AE are game-breakingly powerful. That's what we should shoot for with Seth, I think. It will be a balancing act, but I think it is a balancing act for which there are precedents, and thus one we can do successfully.

EDIT: I put in bold something that occurred to me based on JARG's criticisms, which I think would make Seth less grind-prone. I can elaborate a bit: The idea is that, some levels naturally generate with water, some levels will get additional water upon generation through Seth's benevolent interference, some levels will still generate dry. This creates an interesting dynamic by which certain levels will be harder, others a bit easier, rather than a constant level of difficulty. The variance won't be *HUGE*, as that could be frustrating, but it will be noticeable.

There will be a FLAT rate for Seth to do this, starting at joining, that does not change. So there will be no advantage to "max out piety" then dip down a few levels to maximize chance of water, then come back up and use your piety more loosely. Piety will only affect HOW MUCH water generates, and even then the passive flooding level should be noticeably more water even at low piety levels. So no scumming there.

So it will be random when it happens, but when it does, there will significant amounts of water around. Therefore: No tedious kiting. The abilities Seth offers around water will simply not be worth kiting enemies to a new level, so people won't do it. (Well, they might, and then they might even complain about "tedium," without realizing that the tedium is in this case self-imposed and has little to do with optimal game play. But this happens with plenty of other things in Crawl anyway, sometimes there's just nothing you can do. Some people subject themselves to all sorts of silliness because they feel it bestows some meaningful gain that is in fact extremely marginal or even nonexistent. One can't completely control that through design, no matter how good.)

[dpeg]

and_into: Just a quick one: I agree that conducts help a lot, with flavour and with gameplay, and therefore the water god should get one. There are some candidates. However, "the drain effect would be minor, and it would grow with piety" is not so good, in my opinion: you would expect more piety to always be better than less piety. It would probably still work out like this with your proposal, but increasing the drain effect just encourages players to try to optimise something where there is nothing to be optimised.

[and into]

and_into: Just a quick one: I agree that conducts help a lot, with flavour and with gameplay, and therefore the water god should get one. There are some candidates. However, "the drain effect would be minor, and it would grow with piety" is not so good, in my opinion: you would expect more piety to always be better than less piety. It would probably still work out like this with your proposal, but increasing the drain effect just encourages players to try to optimise something where there is nothing to be optimised.

Yes, but some way to make it proportional. A flat amount could be too crippling at one point in the game and meaningless at another... That's what I'm trying to figure out right now. Perhaps based on total skill level, perhaps with character lvl factored in? And of course it wouldn't affect the experience you get, or anything, you would GAIN skill levels at the same rate, just you would then get a certain malus applied afterward. I'm open to suggestions, though, certainly!

[dpeg]

I think I can rephrase differently why I prefer a non-combat penalty like reduced movement speed to an all-around penalty like reduced skills: with the latter, you are *always* strictly worse off on land; in other words, trying to make sure all combat (whether melee, magical or otherwise) should ideally take place with you in water.
Compare with reduced movement speed: first, you can fight, cast etc. just the same regardless of terrain. Second, while you're worse off fleeing on land, the very penalty will make water-kiting unreliable. (I realise that the slow movement penalty may still lead to too much kiting, but I would think that there are situations where you have to make do without.)

[zugundertherug]

Glossing over much of this thread and elemental gods would be neat. However water is probably the trickiest element to work out. Here's what I mean:
Fire = big up front damage, explosive power.
Earth = tank damage, become more durable.
Air = speed and evasion.
Water = ?

The first three elements took me roughly 40 seconds to think up and type. Water is trickier, flavor wise it is weak in small amounts and unstoppable in large amounts. Post is slightly philisophical but you see what I mean. I can see the transmuting angle (water flows and is shapeless) but don't we already have Jiyva for that? Transmuting into a solid merfolk also seems somewhat odd imo, should be more along the lines of a water elemental though obviously this would be much different than what is currently proposed (don't see water elementals wearing armor).

[and into]

zugundertherug: So long as they are relevant, philosophical or abstract posts are perfectly welcome! Gods in particular work well when they have a unique flavor and theme. It isn't all about mechanics.

I'll actually just rewrite the proposal rather than edit the earlier post, with some revisions, after some more thought.

[spudwalt]

The spawning fog as a defense against dangerous clouds could work. Alternatively, you could have the breath attack blow clouds around. Death drake spews miasma at you? Blow it straight back! (Of course, death drakes are immune to miasma, but the stuff standing around behind it might not be.) I could see that being fun to use with stuff like Conjure Flame or Poisonous Cloud.

Will there be a message when Seth floods a level as a result of the piety thing?

I can see the transmuting angle (water flows and is shapeless) but don't we already have Jiyva for that? Transmuting into a solid merfolk also seems somewhat odd imo, should be more along the lines of a water elemental though obviously this would be much different than what is currently proposed (don't see water elementals wearing armor).

I'd agree with water being heavily associated with mutability (after all, merfolk are among the best Transmuters in the game); I see Jiyva as more related to semi-permanent mutations, whereas a water god would be more in line with increased flexibility and temporary effects. I brainstormed a bit for a water elemental form: you could gain an auxiliary attack like water elementals (with the asphyxiation/demi-silence; maybe make it like constriction where you can only hit one thing with it at a time so it doesn't completely break bands of spellcasters). I could see it making you malleable enough to fit into armor you wouldn't normally wear, but I could also see it making you too malleable to wear armor at all. Either way, being in water form could offer a couple other defensive bonuses (like increased AC or maybe even damage shaving, since your enemies are essentially attacking a liquid).

Another idea regarding the mutability of water: maybe Seth could offer you the ability to swap equipment in and out rapidly, using a stock of stuff you store with him? (i.e. suddenly switch between your leather armor of cold resistance and your leather armor of magic resistance, or change your highly enchanted plate armor out for that artifact chain mail with good resistances/effects but a mediocre enchantment). That wouldn't be super useful for characters with a bunch of artifact rings, though, and it might be hard to code. I did like the idea of having a separate set of equipment available through a form change, though.

Another another idea: Seth could let you temporarily swap skills (as opposed to Ashenzari's skill transfer). You could move your skill in, say, Ice Magic over to Long Blades for fighting an undead or something, then switch back once you've taken care of the problem (or the effect times out).

Pretty much all of this is brainstorming, so take or discard things from it as you will.

[JARG]

I like your idea of blowing away clouds or overriding them with your own, spudwalt. I still think cloud immunity is just ridiculously good(essentially allows you to ignore the volcano's or ice cave's cloud surges, or even the apocalypse crab's chaotic clouds) but that said, it could be "balanced out". I also like the water elemental discussion(it sounds essentially what I had in mind earlier *damage shaving is awesome).

I'm not sure how I feel about the suggested maluses, but it's good to hear the suggestions. (If I come up with better, I'll get back to you)

In regards to jiyva comparisons... Yeah, jiyva's lore is shapeless, but in practice, he shuffles stats and mutations and leaves how your species behaves fundamentally intact. As shapeless as the god may be, that doesn't translate to fluidity/adaptability(you don't get to choose your mutations or stat weighting directly).
The objectives of this god are different in that he doesn't mutate or affect your stats. I do think if we defined some core objectives and themes it might help.

Here's my impression so far:
Major themes
-water (vs land?) //is this thematic or is it also salient and practical, such as with "monsoon season" (which I think is potentially problematic just because many monsters handle water poorly and you'll now be able to flow through it easily... *but maybe that's the point*
-altered form(s)/flexibility/adaptability
Minor themes
-Fog/clouds
-Breath
-item manipulation?

As an aside, if the blow-away breath becomes a thing and an arc effect is desired... It'd be cooler to have it work as a ray(or a lightning rod, but that's WAY powerful lol) for 2 turns imo. First turn/ability cast: linear, long range knockback, second turn: wide, short range arc. That way, you could push something back pretty well at a decent range, but to push back a mob, it'd take a bit more effort than just having the right amount of piety(since the suggestion has 0 piety cost, I think it should have some other built-in balancing features).

[bcadren]

To clarify a bit; last time I talked to dpeg; we were bringing up different possibilities for benefits and thinking that attack magic options or summons would feel too much like Makhleb in practical gameplay; leaving transmutations/forms, hexes/charms and Translocations kinds of abilities to be more unique to the god. Second was eliminated because the only real thought either of us had in hexes is something that would practically be a lot like Leda's and translocations, I'm still fine with, but he thought was potentially too powerful. That said, I do like where he's taken it, but I'd like to throwback in a bit that was lost at some point. Specifically by defining the forms and by putting back in some of the randomness we talked about.

At three piety levels you gain access to a form; two of the forms are randomized (a.k.a. you receive only one of them, from a list of multiple; which you get will be different on different playthroughs). Please note that forms mapped as 'Aquatic' auto return to base form on leaving water; while ones marked amphibious have a normal time out (based on your invocations skill) that runs faster on land than water.

Piety level * (one TINY form). All Tiny forms are the same size as Spider Form/Felids; each is magically affine to a single school; but negatively enhances all others (no hands).

Electric Eel

1. Melds everything except rings [displayed as on 'neck' and on 'tail']
2. rElec
3. Cold Blooded
4. Elec Absorb [Replenishes some MP when taking Electric damage.]
5. Constriction UC brand.
6. Air Magic Enhancer
7. Free use of Shock Spell
8. Limited 'free' use of Lightning Bolt (somewhere between a breath ability and using a rod that only had that spell)
9. Aquatic
10. Submerge ability (similar to the enemy version, acts like invisibility)

Blink Frog

1. Melds everything except rings, necklaces and hats.
2. rDistortion
3. Cold Blooded
4. Selective Stasis (when entering a teleport trap, you may choose to teleport or not, etc. Particularly useful in the Abyss)
5. +4 to movement speed
6. Translocations Enhancer
7. Free Use of Blink Spell
8. Limited 'free' use of Controlled Blink (somewhere between a breath ability and using a rod that only had that spell)
9. Amphibious

Lionfish

1. Melds everything except necklaces and rings (show as being worn on spikes)
2. rPois
3. Cold Blooded
4. Submerge ability (Similar to enemy submerge, enemies act like you are invisible unless they are in melee range)
5. Any enemy that attacks you in Melee is badly poisoned by your barbs.
6. Poison Enchancer
7. Free Use of Sting Spell
8. Limited 'free' use of Venom Bolt (somewhere between a breath ability and using a rod that only had that spell)
9. Aquatic

[Other thoughts include Namazu (koi that cause Earthquakes in Japanese Myth, though LRD or Shatter as an ability seems like too powerful) and replacing Lionfish with pre-existing Sea-Snake. Ice-themed fish could also work.]

Piety level *** (one Human-sized form).

Sea Merfolk [Slightly more powerful than player Race, which are River Merfolk]

1. Ice Magic Enhancer
2. Limited 'free' use of Primal Wave (somewhere between a breath ability and using a rod that only had that spell)
3. +5,+5 Slaying bonus for throwing.
4. Evasion bonus in water; unaffected by AEVP.
5. Submerge ability (Similar to enemy submerge, enemies act like you are invisible unless they are in melee range)
6. Amphibious (acts like Player Merfolk in that regard)

Siren

1. Charms and Hexes Enhancer
2. Limited 'free' use of Siren Song (Player Version is as likely as Confusion to cause normal and lower intelligence creatures to drown themselves; otherwise it only prevents running and is best combined with other Hexes)
3. Evasion bonus in water; unaffected by AEVP.
4. Cancels AEVP's effect on Stealth in water.
5. Submerge ability (Similar to enemy submerge, enemies act like you are invisible unless they are in melee range)
6. Amphibious (acts like Player Merfolk in that regard)

Piety Level ****** (one Dragon-sized form; unlike other forms with this diety, the huge forms are UC-focused like normal Transmutations forms)

Kraken

1. Melds everything except rings, necklaces and hats. Octopodes can keep all their rings.
2. HP + 50%
3. Aquatic
4. You may eat corpses whole (without using turns to butcher)
5. Summon up to 8 Tentacles at a time
   
   1. Each acts like an animal intelligence summon.
   2. Each has 1/4 of your HP.
   3. You take 1/4 of the damage they take.
   4. Each attacks with a constriction branded attack at [5 + UC/2 + STR/3 + DEX/3].
   5. You can retract (despawn) them at any time.
   6. You can tell them to attack a specific enemy without making noise. (They are part of you).
   7. They cannot leave your LoS. (They are part of you).
   .

Hydra

1. Melds everything except necklaces and hats. You cannot wear multiple necklaces, even through you have multiple necks.
2. HP + 50%
3. Amphibious
4. rPois
5. Cold Blooded
6. Movement speed +6 (in water only)
7. Headcount is a random number between 4 and AVERAGE (Invocations, XL).
8. Each head does [6 + UC/3 + STR/3] in bite damage.

Charybdis [The Whirlpool Monster]

1. Melds everything except necklaces and rings.
2. HP + 50%
3. Aquatic
4. Gain HP and Satiation from kills (you swallow your slain enemies whole; so they don't drop corpses)
5. Whirlpool ability (Pulls everything in water closer to you, doing slight damage along the way 2d6 or so)
6. UC Damage = 15 + STR/3 + UC (Slightly more than Dragon Form)
7. Slow Movement
8. Cold-Blooded

[spudwalt]

So, I guess the idea is that Unarmed Combat specialists will be the ones who will benefit the most from the various form changes? A lot of them are kinda UC-based, though I guess other followers will still get to use their weapons in the mer-forms.

Selective Stasis (when entering a teleport trap, you may choose to teleport or not, etc. Particularly useful in the Abyss)

Wouldn't that basically be the control teleport intrinsic? It should probably be blocked in areas with -cTele, like branch ends and the Abyss.

The lionfish form should probably have a venom-branded UC attack.

For the kraken form, eating your foes whole should probably provide tons of satiation (i.e. about the same as if you'd butchered it and eaten every chunk, maybe more since you're eating the skeleton, too). You could balance it out by making it give you a trollish metabolism. Should it also give you the gourmand intrinsic? Also, would spriggans be able to eat corpses in kraken form?

Does the hydra form regain HP/grow 2 more heads when attacked by edged weaponry? You could then have an upper limit based on Invocations or something. Flaming edged weapons would permanently remove heads, insta-killing you when you hit 0. I know Crawl tends to avoid insta-kills, but really, the only way that would happen is through player stupidity, since these forms are cancellable, right? (Mental note: do not fight fire giants in hydra form.)

Charydis [The Whirlpool Monster]

It's spelled 'Charybdis', IIRC. Also, do you eat slain enemies' equipment, too, or just their bodies? (see also above note regarding kraken form)

I do like the idea of having multiple possible combinations of forms (the sea is constantly changing and whatnot), but this looks like it'd require a *lot* of coding.