Thematically Appropriate Scythe Buff

[MoogleDan]

Ignoring absurdly lucky randarts or the scythe of curses, scythes are awful. I think that's pretty much a given. That being said, scythes will never go away considering that Sigmund is Sigmund and no one is ever going to ask him to leave. While trying to think up ways to make these weapons less laughably bad, I realized something: 0.12 added cleaving to Axes, which makes some sense (I'm not sure how a handaxe can maintain velocity through 7 enemies, but whatever), but they didn't add it to scythes, which are honestly the only weapon in the game where that kind of attack makes any kind of sense. How hard would it be to give scythes both reaching and cleaving (though ideally not at the same time; attacking 20 tiles at once would just be goofy)? Evoke to reach, attack adjacent to cleave. Simple, no? It would improve the weapon a smidge, though not enough to make scythes broken, and the slight buff it would give Sigmund and reapers wouldn't be major (a slightly harder time for allies is nothing to cry over).

[Igxfl]

Yeah, I would totally like to see scythes attack 20 tiles at once. For the amount of weapons skill you need to get scythes to min delay, you could be using either a bardiche or an executioner's axe.

[Siegurt]

Sounds reasonable to me....

[dck]

But why are people going to train polearms to bardiche at min delay level and then use a very rare (in the actual dungeon anyway) weapon that hits barely any harder than a halberd? Cleave isn't really that useful and this would basically just make the scythe of curses better in some situations and keep normal scythes at garbage level.

[MoogleDan]

But why are people going to train polearms to bardiche at min delay level and then use a very rare (in the actual dungeon anyway) weapon that hits barely any harder than a halberd? Cleave isn't really that useful and this would basically just make the scythe of curses better in some situations and keep normal scythes at garbage level.

Please understand, I'm not saying this would make scythes an actually competitive option, I'm just saying that it really makes no sense for them NOT to have this ability, and that fixing that thematic goof would bring them a little closer to not being horrible. And cleaving does have uses from time to time; even if your attack delay is increased, it'd be situationally reasonable to switch out a different weapon to attack multiple targets at once.

[Igxfl]

Actually, this would make it the only weapon capable of hitting two monsters at once in a corridor, which is really pretty cool.

[Amnesiac]

I'm just saying that it really makes no sense for them NOT to have this ability

Uh-huh.

There is one more useless weapon though - dire flail. It has a damage of a morning star but it's two handed.

[dck]

Actually, this would make it the only weapon capable of hitting two monsters at once in a corridor, which is really pretty cool.

According to the OP they'd have either one effect or another, so no.

[MoogleDan]

Actually, this would make it the only weapon capable of hitting two monsters at once in a corridor, which is really pretty cool.

According to the OP they'd have either one effect or another, so no.

Oh, I'm cool with that being the case. Whatever way the dev team wanted to incorporate it, I'd be fine with it, and that actually does sound pretty fun and possibly enough to make my polearm characters not use a Blessed Trishula / Shield combo for once.

[Volteccer_Jack]

I'm just saying that it really makes no sense for them NOT to have this ability

Uh-huh.

There is one more useless weapon though - dire flail. It has a damage of a morning star but it's two handed.

dire flail is better than morningstar because it has faster base delay and MIN delay

It's actually just a demon blade that disallows shields, and unless you have an rF+ buckler, who cares.

Anyway basically every weapon in the game is significantly better than scythe.

[Amnesiac]

What I mean is that(talking about making sense) it's not easy to imagine cleaving through multiple enemies with a scythe, but maybe it's just me... With an axe, which is heavy and (sometimes)roundish, it at least makes some sense.

[MoogleDan]

What I mean is that(talking about making sense) it's not easy to imagine cleaving through multiple enemies with a scythe, but maybe it's just me... With an axe, which is heavy and (sometimes)roundish, it at least makes some sense.

Behold, a scythe in action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nx_PDiEjW_E. I imagine that Crawl's weaponized scythes are signficantly larger and better designed for legs than wheat, but the motion would still be the same: a sweeping, horizontal attack. As for axes, swinging straight down would carry a whole lot more oomph.

[dck]

Oh, I'm cool with that being the case. Whatever way the dev team wanted to incorporate it, I'd be fine with it, and that actually does sound pretty fun and possibly enough to make my polearm characters not use a Blessed Trishula / Shield combo for once.

Cleaving does 75% damage and scythes have 14 base damage, which is one more point of damage than a blessed trishula. Trishulas hit min delay at 14 skill, while scythes hit it at 26.
I don't think 2 tile weird cleave for that kind of investment would seem like a good idea to a lot of people. Even against demon tridents which have 12 damage it'd be ridiculous.

[evilmike]

I don't see why cleaving would make sense here. When people used scythes as weapons, they had the blade attached so it's pointing forwards, so it can be used as a normal polearm weapon. Not really something you'd "cleave" with. More like stab people or hack them to bits.

This is very different from a scythe as a farming implement, where the blade is perpendicular to the shaft. These are used in a sort of "cleaving" motion I suppose, but not very useful as a weapon. Unless your enemy is someone's lawn, or perhaps ankles.

Oddly enough, crawl's tiles show scythes as the latter. I guess that's why they are so weak...

[MoogleDan]

As a Tiles player, that's been my interpretation. So I guess the real question is, "Are Tiles canon?" I think the biggest argument for the Tiles icons being correct would be reapers. In almost all Grim Reaper imagery where a scythe is present, it's a harvesting tool, not a proper polearm. Which trumps which, Military History or Art History?

[Amnesiac]

Behold, a scythe in action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nx_PDiEjW_E

Ohh, right. That's very similar to cleaving through multiple heavily armored orc knights with a scythe.

[MoogleDan]

Behold, a scythe in action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nx_PDiEjW_E

Ohh, right. That's very similar to cleaving through multiple heavily armored orc knights with a scythe.

Well, look at the stats; it wouldn't be terribly good at taking out armored orc knights. The little fleshy guys wearing leather armour, or perhaps a field of gelatinous ugly things, however, would be a heck of a lot less capable of standing up to it. Switch to a bardiche for when you need to open the tin cans.

[khalil]

Behold, a scythe in action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nx_PDiEjW_E

Ohh, right. That's very similar to cleaving through multiple heavily armored orc knights with a scythe.

We care why? Axes probably don't hit everything that isn't directly behind you in the real world, but it was put in anyway.

[rebthor]

I don't see why cleaving would make sense here. When people used scythes as weapons, they had the blade attached so it's pointing forwards, so it can be used as a normal polearm weapon. Not really something you'd "cleave" with. More like stab people or hack them to bits.

This is very different from a scythe as a farming implement, where the blade is perpendicular to the shaft. These are used in a sort of "cleaving" motion I suppose, but not very useful as a weapon. Unless your enemy is someone's lawn, or perhaps ankles.

Oddly enough, crawl's tiles show scythes as the latter. I guess that's why they are so weak...

It's not just tiles. They show as ) in console.

[prozacelf]

I don't have it handy but I think the in game description of scythes mentions that they're of the awkward farm implement variety.

[MoogleDan]

I don't have it handy but I think the in game description of scythes mentions that they're of the awkward farm implement variety.

A farm implement, usually only used by untrained mobs in combat.

----

"It was instinct. Illogical as lightning striking and not hurting. Each day the grain must be cut. It had to be cut. Why? Well, it just did, that was all. He laughed at the scythe in his big hands. Then, whistling, he took it out to the ripe and waiting field and did the work. He thought himself a little mad. Hell, it was an ordinary-enough wheat field, really, wasn't it?"

-Ray Bradbury, _The Scythe_, 1943.

[red_kangaroo]

I think we don't have to be so realistic and 'harvesting ' scythe seems much more flavourful for me (Grim Reapers etc.). Also the reach-cleaving sounds really nice.

[Azrael]

I don't really see anything wrong with this, if it can be easily coded. I like scythes because of their thematic value, but they're so terrible that I would appreciate even a slightly better version of them. Also, throwing away scythes right now is a no brainer. Isn't that against Crawl design philosophy?

[crate]

Also, throwing away scythes right now is a no brainer. Isn't that against Crawl design philosophy?

I kind of assumed they only existed for monsters to use, like clubs do.

[Igxfl]

Also, throwing away scythes right now is a no brainer. Isn't that against Crawl design philosophy?

I kind of assumed they only existed for monsters to use, like clubs do.

But unlike clubs, which monsters use all the time, scythes usually just occur on an infamous unique and one type of tier-2 demon. They don't really seem like garbage filler weapons, despite having the stats of one.

[Amnesiac]

Why do they have such a low speed in the first place, anyway?. Considering that it's the worst polearm, it could use some unique feature, but cleaving just seems strange.

[MoogleDan]

Even if it's nowhere near as heavy as the other super-slow weapons in the game, the movement of attacking with it is extremely awkward. Maybe that's to blame for the speed?

[XuaXua]

Why do they have such a low speed in the first place, anyway?. Considering that it's the worst polearm, it could use some unique feature, but cleaving just seems strange.

But it's REACH cleaving. Hit a ton of spots at once!
Make Sigmund less vulnerable to summon mobs!

[roctavian]

I'm curious -- why did reaping brand disappear from scythes? That's at least interesting, though ultimately inconsequential.

[XuaXua]

I think the artefact still exists. I miss the random roving bands of centaurs all equipped with bows of reaping.

[siprus]

What about not giving it cleave, but make it hit monster in front of you and one behind that (but not cleave)

[MoogleDan]

While that would certainly be a buff, it's not exactly fitting for a scythe at all. I suggested cleave since it's a weapon that attacks with a circular, sweeping motion. What you're describing would be... what, hammering it down on the distant enemy's head and yanking it back?

[Tiktacy]

(though ideally not at the same time; attacking 20 tiles at once would just be goofy)?

Considering you'd still have to use a scythe to do it, probably not a balance issue

A merfolk wielding a Scythe of Curses would break the game... I like that...

[MoogleDan]

A merfolk wielding a Scythe of Curses would break the game... I like that...

Nah, it would just break fights with summoned popcorn. Still, I don't think anyone would mind that.