Rename Djinni to Efreet, give rot immunity

[Amnesiac]

I think Djinni doesn't associate with fire as good as Efreet, so... you get the idea. Don't you think so?

Btw, I got this idea from a friend who doesn't have anything to do with crawl, so I thought it's a good example of how common thinking works.

[XuaXua]

Djinni is Genie, which is the wishing Arabian thing; demon trapped in a bottle.
Efreet /Ifrit are the fire elementals.

I agreee with the OP's logic and would suggest renaming whatever comes out of the bottle.

[Amnesiac]

Also, I think it's strange that Djinni can rot, while not even being made of flesh. The same could be probably said about rPois. I'm not sure, but it always strikes me with it's strangeness.

[Azrael]

Perhaps we should reduce Djinn's negative energy resistance a few ticks (they're literally made out of energy; draining attacks shouldn't do that much less damage to them) and give them rPois and rRot instead?

[khalil]

@guywhopostedbeforeme
That'd work. Having rN+++ makes them too much like mummies.

[Amnesiac]

Or Djinni could be made not so fire affined and just have a bit of resistances here and there.

[Mankeli]

@guywhopostedbeforeme
That'd work. Having rN+++ makes them too much like mummies.

As opposed to having rRot which is completely unlike mummies??

[khalil]

Rot comes up less than negative energy. Just ghouls and other things like that, iirc.

[Scrotar]

I'm glad someone else noticed this flavor oversight. A Djinn is associated with Air, not Fire. An Efreet, however is associated with Fire. This is established both in mythology and gaming lore.

I also support the rot resistance in exchange for reducing the negative energy resistance. If a being is MADE of energy, one would think bad energy would at least harm them as much as physical beings. rPois is overdone, and I think, flavorwise it could go either way on Efreeti.

[Volteccer_Jack]

I'm glad someone else noticed this flavor oversight. A Djinn is associated with Air, not Fire.

According to what? Do you have ANY idea how many different variations there are on 'vampire' in fiction?? How about 'dwarf'? 'Troll'? 'Gargoyle'? Do you also want to complain about how longswords should actually have higher damage than scimitars (unless they're Swedish scimitars in which case that should be specified in-game), because they were traditionally heavier due to the need to kill multiple Russians with a single swing and therefore the blade was made from blah blah blah nobody cares shut up

I know this comes as a huge shock to some people, but these are fictional creatures composed entirely of fictional traits and living in an entirely fictional universe, and nothing anywhere ever compels the authors of one fictional universe to accept facts from another fictional universe. That's pretty much the point of fiction.

It's really depressing to see people complaining about the one and only aspect of Djinn that is actually just fine the way it is (flavour), when literally every other thing about them is more worthy of complaint.

[CrazyJ]

I'm glad someone else noticed this flavor oversight. A Djinn is associated with Air, not Fire.

According to what? Do you have ANY idea how many different variations there are on 'vampire' in fiction?? How about 'dwarf'? 'Troll'? 'Gargoyle'? Do you also want to complain about how longswords should actually have higher damage than scimitars (unless they're Swedish scimitars in which case that should be specified in-game), because they were traditionally heavier due to the need to kill multiple Russians with a single swing and therefore the blade was made from blah blah blah nobody cares shut up

I know this comes as a huge shock to some people, but these are fictional creatures composed entirely of fictional traits and living in an entirely fictional universe, and nothing anywhere ever compels the authors of one fictional universe to accept facts from another fictional universe. That's pretty much the point of fiction.

This isn't just "our djinn are different", rather it is "our djinn are efreet". I am perfectly fine with imbuing fantasy races with whatever attributes you want, such as was done for deep dwarves. However, if you were for example, going to have your elves be bearded stout alcoholic craftsman who live underground, why wouldn't you call your elves dwarves so there wasn't any confusion? Same deal with the djinn, if you are going to give them fire immunity you might as well call them efreet.

Furthermore, whatever other issues the new race has, the name of the race is going to be the easiest to deal with and require the least amount of work to change.

[Arrhythmia]

"The Qur'an mentions that the jinn are made of a smokeless and "scorching fire""

- Third sentence of the relevant wikipedia article.

e: "And the jinn, We created aforetime from the smokeless flame of fire. " - Qu'ran:15:27

[CrazyJ]

"The Qur'an mentions that the jinn are made of a smokeless and "scorching fire""

- Third sentence of the relevant wikipedia article.

e: "And the jinn, We created aforetime from the smokeless flame of fire. " - Qu'ran:15:27

Ok, then read the Wikipedia article on the Ifrit, the second and third sentences:
"They are in a class of infernal Jinn noted for their strength and cunning. An ifrit is an enormous winged creature of fire, either male or female, who lives underground and frequents ruins."

It isn't that it is exactly inappropriate to call the new species djinn, but efreet is still a better fit given its abilities.

[TwilightPhoenix]

Let's just have a cat walk across a keyboard, clean up whatever it types, and rename Djinni to whatever comes up. That way, there's absolutely no confusion or arguing about whether it's "accurate" to fictional myths.

[zugundertherug]

efreet - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ifrit
djinn - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jinn

Efreet are always associated with fire. Djinn can be associated with other elements. From second link:
"In One Thousand and One Nights, there are depicted several types of jinn that coexist and interact with humans: shayṭān, the ghūl, the marīd, the ‘ifrīt, and the angels. The One Thousand and One Nights seems to present ifrits as the most massive and strongest forms of jinn, and marids are a type of jinn associated with seas and oceans."

However efreet are always evil so you shouldn't be able to worship any of the good gods if you changed names. To confuse matters more, "genie", "jinn", and "djinn" are all the same thing and no one here in the west associates djinn with granting wishes, even though they do.

So I'm on the fence with a name change. However I wouldn't mind seeing them be unable to cast necromutation or statue form since they're made of magic. Rot immunity also makes sense from a thematic standpoint but not sure about balance.

[CrazyJ]

However efreet are always evil so you shouldn't be able to worship any of the good gods if you changed names. To confuse matters more, "genie", "jinn", and "djinn" are all the same thing and no one here in the west associates djinn with granting wishes, even though they do.

So I'm on the fence with a name change. However I wouldn't mind seeing them be unable to cast necromutation or statue form since they're made of magic. Rot immunity also makes sense from a thematic standpoint but not sure about balance.

The link you posted says otherwise:

"As with the jinn, an ifrit may be either a believer or an unbeliever, good or evil, but he is most often depicted as a wicked and ruthless being."

I don't think it would be necessary to make them another evil only race, both because we already have enough evil races and lore suggests that they have enough free will that they aren't always evil. But the other suggestions do make sense

[TeshiAlair]

Solution- remove Djinn for being the only race more awful than Felids, because at least Felids have fun flavor, are a challenge race, and aren't broken.

[savageorange]

@TeshiAlair
Djinn aren't meant to be all that un-broken (yet).

They're meant to serve as a vehicle to try out several new possible gameplay mechanics. Ideally people will mention how they find the different aspects (hunger ->contam, shared mp/hp. Secondarily, hellfire resistance) to kilobyte in IRC (he doesn't pay much attention to the forums AFAIK), so we can arrive at something that's less broken (whether that's migrating those mechanics to other races and eliminating djinn, or changing or removing those mechanics.).

Things in trunk are mostly not fully baked, which is totally normal.

[absolutego]

Solution- remove Djinn for being the only race more awful than Felids, because at least Felids have fun flavor, are a challenge race, and aren't broken.

felids are not a challenge race, and they're pretty broken
i don't know what "fun flavour" is so i can't debunk that

[galehar]

Furthermore, whatever other issues the new race has, the name of the race is going to be the easiest to deal with and require the least amount of work to change.

This is so wrong. I guess you weren't around in the megabat period (or any other endless naming debate).

[khalil]

What's a megabat? Is it just a normal bat with a stupid name or something?

[galehar]

Is it just a normal bat with a stupid name?

Yes

edit: It's also a real bat type.

[jejorda2]

All the standard bats have been called giant bats and megabats in the past. I never remember whether newts and cockroaches are gaint newts and giant cockroaches or not. I'm pretty sure standard ants are worker ants now, but they used to be giant ants. I guess it didn't make sense to kill a regular ant with a sword.

[khalil]

Huh. Now I know what that weird microbat vault was about.

[prozacelf]

Is it just a normal bat with a stupid name?

Yes

edit: It's also a real bat type.

However, gigabats are not real.

[TeshiAlair]

*bat vault is possibly my favorite vault in the game.

[XuaXua]

Bat vault needs 2-3 live Robins and a dead Robin.

[One-Eyed Jack]

Jason Todd is alive now or something

Edit: So is Stephanie Brown, and they have batman's son as the current robin I think

[XuaXua]

One of those you named has been dead for a month or two.

Spoilers.

Says the guy with the DC comic character as his avatar.