Humans are Terrible

[snow]

They feel like either really crappy high elves or really crappy hill orcs depending on if you learn spells or not. Humans have no niche at all... I mean I get that they're going for the jack of all trades thing but plenty of other species fill that niche and do it better: when it comes down to it humans are a jack of no trades.

Since all references to humans being the base species have been removed I think it's safe to make them a little interesting.

[jejorda2]

Give 'em wild magic 2 at start, along with innate +X,-X slaying bonus, where X is XP Level/3 + 1.

[Mankeli]

Humans have no niche at all...jack of all trades...

[Amnesiac]

I would give them to choose a stat every 4 levels instead of a random. Maybe boost some apts by 1, maybe you'd get to choose which one later or at the beginning.

[snow]

Humans have no niche at all...jack of all trades...

Nice misquote. You left out the part where they fail horribly at being a jack of all trades compared to some other species though.

[crate]

humans are pretty bad at being bad

[Mankeli]

Humans have no niche at all...jack of all trades...

Nice misquote. You left out the part where they fail horribly at being a jack of all trades compared to some other species though.

You honestly think, that humans fail horribly at being jack of all trades compared to high elves (which may be on the chopping block BTW)??

My point was to illustrate the strange starting point of your post and that you kind of already solved it yourself which happens quite often in GDD.

[Amnesiac]

Humans are a bit tougher and a bit better at some weapons, defensive abilities and magic and there is nothing they are bad at. I don't think that they are... bad. They can make use of literaly everything they find. I've never played humans because I'm still mastering dedicated characters, but I might want to play a human in the future. Btw, I don't play high elves, too and might even not want to.

[snow]

You honestly think, that humans fail horribly at being jack of all trades compared to high elves (which may be on the chopping block BTW)??

Not compared to high elves specifically. High elves make better casters and Hill Orcs make better noncasters. Whatever you want to do can be done better with another species, and if you want to do everything at once the bad apts and good apts of pretty much any given species balance out.

[Amnesiac]

But what are they so terrible at iyo? I mean, if you want to do "everything at once" you could as well start a human without having to balance out your skills.

[pratamawirya]

Human actually feels like one of the most (or even THE most) well-designed races in the whole game.

[Mankeli]

You honestly think, that humans fail horribly at being jack of all trades compared to high elves (which may be on the chopping block BTW)??

Not compared to high elves specifically. High elves make better casters and Hill Orcs make better noncasters. Whatever you want to do can be done better with another species, and if you want to do everything at once the bad apts and good apts of pretty much any given species balance out.

So what you are trying to say is that humans are not good jacks of all trades because some species are better in some areas of the game? Isn't the definition of "jack of all trades" being able or competent in many skills? And hence isn't it true that the fact that some species are better at air magic has nothing to do with the "jack of all tradedness" of humans?

[khalil]

The problem is jack of all trades is a terrible niche.
My fighter will always be a minotaur, and my caster will always be a deep elf.
There is nothing humans can do that another race can't do better.

[BlackSheep]

If you could play more than one species at a time, that might matter.

[pratamawirya]

In a game where adaptation is a necessity, being a jack of all trades isn't bad at all.

[Mankeli]

There is nothing humans can do that another race can't do better.

Adaptation anyone?

My fighter will always be a minotaur, and my caster will always be a deep elf.

And what if you find wucad mu on d:2? Or amulet of rage on d:1? Do you understand that in terms of actually winning a game of DCSS it is a horrible strategy to decide before character creation that, for example "I'm gonna play a long blade heavy armoured character no matter if the RNG gives me demon whip of pain and book of necromany on d:2". Humans strenght is taking advantage of the opportunities RNG provides. Also, all of their aptitutes are actually pretty good already (even if we forget about the adaptation part)!

[galehar]

High elves make better casters and Hill Orcs make better noncasters.

My fighter will always be a minotaur, and my caster will always be a deep elf.

What is this game you guys are playing with one-dimensional characters? In crawl, with the notable exception of Trog, there is no such thing as "caster", "noncaster" and "fighter". Virtually every character cast spells and use weapons.
So yeah, humans are not the best berserkers, but outside of this single niche, they are pretty good.

[mikee]

What if I told you you could play a high elf - you can hit things, use spells, all that high elf 'hybrid' stuff, whatever. And get this - you'll have 10% more hp and level up faster; never again will you be xl 1 after clearing d:1. Sounds pretty good, huh? That species is called human.

[Volteccer_Jack]

There is nothing humans can do that another race can't do better.

You can actually see that this is wrong just by looking at the in-game aptitude chart with '?%'.

In fact, the aptitude in question was recently made more important.

[Igxfl]

You mean the Experience aptitude? Why is it more important now?

[khalil]

@galehar
One dimensional characters are totally things without the use of Trog. DeCj of Veh doesn't need weapon skills because he can kill things and get free mp. MiFi of Oka is too busy wearing GDR/CPM to cast anything, and doesn't need spells anyway thanks to heroism and finesse. I will admit that those are some of the most boring builds in this game, but that doesn't change the fact they are both one dimensional.

[galehar]

@galehar
One dimensional characters are totally things without the use of Trog. DeCj of Veh doesn't need weapon skills. MiFi of Oka doesn't need spells because Oka gives heroism and finesse.

You're free to play a DeCj without weapons or a MiFi without spells, but that's not the best way of playing them. It's a challenge condition. So don't judge the the power level of a species based on this assumption.

[khalil]

@galehar
Have I been playing it wrong or something? Most of the time the horrible aptitudes of a mino in spellcasting, combined with the asf of plate mail made it impossible for me to cast anything. I could have a DeCj hold a weapon, but staves of conj or whatever seem more productive.

[rosstin]

@galehar
Have I been playing it wrong or something? Most of the time the horrible aptitudes of a mino in spellcasting, combined with the asf of plate mail made it impossible for me to cast anything. I could have a DeCj hold a weapon, but staves of conj or whatever seem more productive.

Your Mino might find it worthwhile to invest in some level 1 spells. At high armor skills, I think you could cast even in plate. Animate Skeleton, Apportation, Corona, Summon Butterflies, are all cantrips you might consider. They provide extremely high utility for very little investment; just a couple levels of spellcasting and the appropriate school, which would be trivial at high levels.

For a DeCj, personally I usually invest a handful of levels in Fighting, Staves, and Evocation just so I can kill rats without casting (although this depends on God choice, mana availability, etc. I would never ever bother meleeing on a Mummy of Sif Muna for instance.)

I think as you play Crawl more and more you care less and less about negative aptitudes.

[Siegurt]

It takes longer to be a decent spellcaster as a Mi in plate, utimately it's possible, but it takes a long time and is something that you do late game, primarily to support your primary melee talents (For a lot of MiFi, casting haste in platemail is the holy grail, myself I just like to be able to cast swiftness.) Ultimately, spells can turn a primary melee character into something to behold, statue form, ring of fire, haste, and many other higher-level spells combine excellently with a melee user's weapon.

DECj are a weird thing, typically they've got enough Mana and spellcasting chops that they can just blast their way through the early game. I find with most non-DE spellcasters though that using a weapon helps supplement your mana expenditures considerably. It's worth dropping a few points into late game just to deal with popcorn, so you can make sure your mana is always full when you come into contact with something worth using it on. It also helps manage spell hunger if you don't use it for *everything* DE can benefit from using a weapon, but don't need one quite as much as other casters. At the later stages, it's helpful to use weapons when you don't want to attract a lot of attention, so if your spellcasting skills are maxed out, switching out to a lajatang, or elemental staff is a great way to kill stuff without bringing the entire dungeon on your head.

[Zemmy Stardust]

So let's say I find a staff of Wucad Mu on D1. I'm playing a troll. I decide to become a caster.

As a troll, I can:

Ride claws all the way to Lair while training my magic
Go Vehumet (and because I'm not a DeFe I don't care if Veh gifts are crap, as long as I get Shatter) and get piety for kills with my claws
Stay permanently engorged because of gourmand intrinsic so hunger is less of a problem
Regen at high speed whenever I need to retreat

As a human I can:
Do none of those things
Train my spells a bit faster
Get XLs a bit faster
Struggle with hunger

Now a DeFe going melee is a bit dicier but they at least have decent short blades. Or transmuter if its the berserk rage amulet. The point is, pretty much every species can do the "hybrid and adaptation" than humans, largely because racials matter a LOT more than apts.

It takes longer to be a decent spellcaster as a Mi in plate, utimately it's possible, but it takes a long time and is something that you do late game, primarily to support your primary melee talents (For a lot of MiFi, casting haste in platemail is the holy grail, myself I just like to be able to cast swiftness.) Ultimately, spells can turn a primary melee character into something to behold, statue form, ring of fire, haste, and many other higher-level spells combine excellently with a melee user's weapon.

Honestly, why not use Ice Dragon armor? Fire weakness sucks but you can work around it with other equips. Or Dragon armor if you're okay with a bit less defense.

[TwilightPhoenix]

The Human will be slinging IMB, Poison Arrow, the like much sooner than the Troll. And he can maintain a respectable melee ability too if he so chooses. Not to mention, his INT won't be crap so he'll have higher spell success and lower spell hunger much sooner as well and won't have to worry if corpses decide to run dry for a bit.

Yeah, Trolls can ride their claws and regeneration during the early game no matter what they do, but they can't rely on claws and regen to get them through the entire game. They're like the "get out of early game free" species. But, compared to others, they tend to lose steam as they go. Those claws won't be looking so nice when the human is casting stuff like Fireball and Poisonous Cloud (and can pull that off by some point in Lair easily if they wish).

[Sar]

they can't rely on claws and regen to get them through the entire game

They totally can, their melee damage output is huge, their HP pool is huge too and by midgame you have reasonable chances to find a decent dragon armour, also Shields are a decent choice for Trolls.

[rebthor]

I feel like I'm playing a different game than some posters here. People think that MiFi can't cast spells, that DEFE shouldn't melee things. I'm not even a great player and I just got a LOIE to D:27 and should have won but I fat fingered. Yeah the early game was a little harder but not significantly so.

[Amnesiac]

Pressing a wrong button is one of the most frustrating causes of death.

[galehar]

This thread is terrible

[Amnesiac]

Not just this thread, though

[cjo]

Regardless of their power, humans play a key thematic role in the game as the race with no mutations. I think it is important to have such a race exist. I don't understand the desire to cut them, actually. I have in the past heard people suggest that they be a purely hypothetical reference point, but why? It's not like there is a race quota and humans have to be cut to get some other race in.

I will admit that when I want a generalist, I choose demonspawn or draconic much more often than human. It's not a pure power consideration, it's more that I like having random mutations. But I do choose human from time to time, and besides that, their thematic value goes beyond how powerful they are or aren't.

[tcjsavannah]

In the beginning I used to think 0 was a horrible number for aptitudes. I know better now.

[siprus]

Ì think the idea is to give the a small buff to make them less of an. I'm good at nothing class. I think the free allocation of attributes or more attributes might be nice. I guess having 2 skills +4 and one -4, might require as much training to get to level x as would a guy with 0 aptitudes on each skills (for example if you train each skill to 400xp, +4 skill -would require 200xp and -4 would require 800xp. Requiring you 1200xp in total (2x200xp + 800xp). For 0 aptitudes guy all skills will need just 400 aptitude in total of 1200xp.

I haven't done any math but i get feeling that for each +1 apptitude most races get average of -1 on some other aptitude (or worse). So if you might be better off with char with no aptitudes if you are gonna cross train your skills even a bit.

Correct me if i'm wrong with my math.

[Ramc]

Humans are terrible

I can understand how you'd feel that way, with all these terrible stories in the news lately. The important thing to remember is that the people doing these terrible things really represent a tiny silver of a sliver of the population of the world, and that by and large people are generally decent. If you're feeling down on humanity, maybe spend some time volunteering with soup kitchens or other charities. Being around other people who are willing to sacrifice some of their time or resources for the betterment of others might put you in a healthier frame of mind about humans.

[pratamawirya]

I've been playing some humans lately; it all started after I splatted way too many ogres. Huge clubs and huge strength are fun (especially in 0.13), but yeah....

Well, the humans made me rediscover why I liked crawl in the first place. So I was a falchion-wielding gladiator... but man, an early sling and bullets? Why not! I then got slings trained to 5, but soon after, a centaur popped out from nowhere and decided to ruin my life with flaming arrows. And so after I turned the poor thing into chunks of yummy raw flesh, I ditched my sling for it's sweet, sweet flame bow. And so I trained bows to 8 (enough to obliterate early orc and even YAK packs)... but of course after I got my long blades to 12 first (for min delay with scimitars). And I hadn't even seen the entrance to Lair yet! I was still on D:9.

Marvelous!

[Klown]

I like their versatility & fast leveling.

What is the reason for -1 Spellcasting though ?

[Siegurt]

Have you tried them brining them with a bit of salt and garlic then roasting them with honey barbeque glaze? Maybe serve them with a side of garlic potatoes....

[Ramc]

Have you tried them brining them with a bit of salt and garlic then roasting them with honey barbeque glaze? Maybe serve them with a side of garlic potatoes....

I think this is the thread you are looking for actually: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8816

[rosstin]

The trick is not to eat them raw.

[Mankeli]

Have you tried them brining them with a bit of salt and garlic then roasting them with honey barbeque glaze? Maybe serve them with a side of garlic potatoes....

I think this is the thread you are looking for actually: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8816

  Code:

Xom finds this delicious!

[Arrhythmia]

The only proof I ever needed for humans being terrible was this thread.

[njvack]

What is the reason for -1 Spellcasting though ?

Spellcasting used to level at a different rate than the other skills (such that 0 invisibly meant -1 or very close to it) but that was confusing, so everyone just got 1 subtracted from spellcasting. It makes humans look funny but that's about the extent of the drawbacks.

[XuaXua]

I thought that was a temporary measure to even it out, and that Spellcasting's actual base would be re-scaled properly in the next version and everyone would be re-set to the more visually acceptable Current Number +1.

[Volteccer_Jack]

it indicates that spellcasting levels slower than all other skills (just like evo/invo level faster, hence the +1s)

[XuaXua]

I do believe Fighting levels slower too, but it isn't penalized in the same way.

[Kate]

you believe wrong

[khalil]

To be fair, I think fighting used to level weird too.