Strength and HP

[Azrael]

Why not have every point in Strength increase HP by a point or two? It makes sense biologically, and also adds to gameplay by giving Strength a visible effect on the character. I'm pretty sure everyone still picks Dex when they get the chance, so this might not be a bad idea. Thoughts?

[savageorange]

I'm pretty sure everyone still picks Dex when they get the chance

Why do you think that? Dex is relatively useless.
My impression is that you increase Int if you ever want to use spells, Str if you're wearing heavy armour you need to cancel the penalty of, and Dex only if your build is very dodgy/stealthy. See the stats section (starting on line 193) in this writeup for a full list of what effects each stat has.

On the subject of STR->HP: IIRC that's how it used to be, and it was moved into the Fighting skill. I'm undecided as to whether that makes more sense, but it certainly seems to be more fun to play.

[Azrael]

It just feels kind of weird to me that a 30 strength melee brute has the same HP as a 7 strength wizard, so long as they're the same level, race, and have equal Fighting.

[XuaXua]

I would like to see Attributes have a greater impact on gameplay. This is a step in the correct direction. IMHO, HP should be enhanced by STR and DEX, MP should be enhanced by INT and DEX, just to give DEX something to do.

[Klown]

Definately STR=HP.

[Sar]

Dex is relatively useless.

Dex is nice if you want to avoid a solid part of incoming damage (which in my experience most characters do).

Also (sorry for off-topic) I skimmed through the pastebin you linked and it isn't very good. It sure is verbose though!

On-topic: it would make STR loss, items and mutations that give or take STR very fiddly, and special-casting STR gains on level-ups would not be very good IMO.

[savageorange]

@Sar: that's definitely true, it's just a question of whether you can afford to do that (or if you also need Str to cancel armour penalty or Int for casting). I guess that was an overreaction to the notion that one could just choose Dex every time. Most builds can't afford to do that IME.

Any comments about the guide should be directed at BackslashEcho, in this thread. Personally I liked how it's less formal and more willing to express an opinion than the official docs -- I find it much more readable.

Excellent point about the general problems with having one stat effectively ..effect.. another stat. That seems to point towards the direction that we are already doing some of: having primary stats boost effectiveness of skills (eg Dex for Dodging). There are so many variables that are affected whenever this kind of change is made that it's quite challenging to do well.

EDIT: I think DD's gameplay mechanics are weird, but making high STR act as damage-shaving might achieve some of the same effects as the STR=HP suggestion, without some of its problems.

[reaver]

I'd rather str give AC. Max HP fluctuating as much as str does would be very annoying.

This pretty much covers the complainants against this. There's a reason that Heroism doesn't affect you max hp from Fighting. If you want to see why this doesn't work, try producing the Ring of Vitality (an unrandart which is currently the only source of extra hp) and fiddling with it. It's pretty hard to tell what it'll do when you put it on or take it off.

What if Str increased your regeneration rate slightly? Then you'd still have more "effective" hp, but there wouldn't be any weirdness when you gain or lose strength.

[Klown]

What if Str increased your regeneration rate slightly? Then you'd still have more "effective" hp, but there wouldn't be any weirdness when you gain or lose strength.

That seems nice as well.

[Kate]

If you want to see why this doesn't work, try producing the Ring of Vitality (an unrandart which is currently the only source of extra hp) and fiddling with it. It's pretty hard to tell what it'll do when you put it on or take it off.

I don't know about you but I don't usually have too much difficulty adding or subtracting 15 from another number.

[reaver]

If you want to see why this doesn't work, try producing the Ring of Vitality (an unrandart which is currently the only source of extra hp) and fiddling with it. It's pretty hard to tell what it'll do when you put it on or take it off.

I don't know about you but I don't usually have too much difficulty adding or subtracting 15 from another number.

Try it while damaged. It affects you current hp too, but in a weird way. I think it scales it like berserk?

[Kate]

Yes... you just keep the same proportion of current HP/max HP.

[ZionRavescene]

I've been thinking about this for a while. I even made a graph showing the relationship between the racial hp modifier and each species final strength at level 27 (assuming strength is never selected at level up, and with an average distribution of the random stat boosts). The result is a very clear correlation...even the outlier races can be explained by deviation from medium size, or other species specific tropes.

The point being, DCSS already ties HP to strength...whatever intution is telling the devs "this species is strong" is clearly also telling them "this species has high HP." However, instead of linking the two mechanically, the game uses one of eight super secret racial modifiers to determine character HP. Personally, I think DCSS would be a more elegant game if strength replaced the secret racial mods, though I understand the devs have a lot of other things to work on, too.

Added bonus for linking HP to strength: Worshipping Chei gets a little more awesome (or a little less terrible), and never-choose-strength gets a little less obvious.

[galehar]

I'd rather str give AC. Max HP fluctuating as much as str does would be very annoying.

It already kinda does by allowing you to wear heavier armour. Although, maybe the effect would be stronger if it directly factored in the AC formula instead of the penalty. Any specific suggestion?

However, instead of linking the two mechanically, the game uses one of eight super secret racial modifiers to determine character HP.

What's secret about the HP aptitude? It's well documented and easily accessible.

[crate]

stats seem ok to me now, btw

[ZionRavescene]

What's secret about the HP aptitude? It's well documented and easily accessible.

My apologies, I have a non-exact style of communicating that often leads to misunderstanding. This is a character fault with me .

What I mean is that the racial hp modifier seems to be chosen arbitrarily, or rather that the "secret" is "Why does this number exist?" To me, an arbitrarily chosen magic number (especially eight different magic numbers) feels clunky when there is an alternate path which produces extremely similar results, while also increasing dynamic interactions from player choice.

[ackack]

What's secret about the HP aptitude? It's well documented and easily accessible.

My apologies, I have a non-exact style of communicating that often leads to misunderstanding. This is a character fault with me .

What I mean is that the racial hp modifier seems to be chosen arbitrarily, or rather that the "secret" is "Why does this number exist?" To me, an arbitrarily chosen magic number (especially eight different magic numbers) feels clunky when there is an alternate path which produces extremely similar results, while also increasing dynamic interactions from player choice.

Well, the way you're proposing means that backgrounds would have a very substantial impact on HP. That's not inherently unreasonable but seems unlikely to fit in with the Crawl point of view. (As an aside, I wish backgrounds DID matter more outside of the start, as I think the flexibility leads to a lot of characters heading toward the same ultimate goals. But I think this type of suggestion goes too far.) Further, it means that you now would want to know the str associated with a background as well as a race (and care more about what stats you gain as a race.) This seems like an awful lot more management compared to your "arbitrarily chosen magic numbers," and also a lot more irreducible complexity.

[Amnesiac]

Physically strong races already have more HP, btw, I think it's not a good idea to make them even tougher

[rchandra]

It just feels kind of weird to me that a 30 strength melee brute has the same HP as a 7 strength wizard, so long as they're the same level, race, and have equal Fighting. :?

incidentally, they don't. not by much in the end but background does affect HP.

[Azrael]

I have been under the impression that only Fighters gained extra HP. Regardless, the effect does not have to be substantial to be noticeable, and I think it would console those who like the idea of having a big, strong tank character. Can't hurt to try it, right? That's what Trunk is for.

[siprus]

Maybe make high end of strenght (+27) give you tiny bit of ac or decrease your dodging penalty (or tiny bit of hp) So very high strength characters would want strength instead of dex.

[Abominae]

I don't get why stats need to have a greater impact. Low dexterity species have crappy EV; low int species have worse spellpower / more hunger; low str species can't wear higher penalty armours effectively. Intelligence is a crappy stat to raise unless spell power is relevant to your build, so it's really not the go to dump stat some people make it out to be.

I'd say stats limit and enable enough crap to be a relevant choice as it is. Dexterity is probably still the best general stat, but there are a lot of cases where you wouldn't put all your picks into Dex.

[siprus]

Isn't heavier armor generally better than higher dex... -> strength is strong than dex unless you want to be stealthy, or don't want to wear very heavy armor (is there anyother reasons to not wear heavy armor than if you want to cast or go stealthy).

[Sandman25]

Isn't heavier armor generally better than higher dex... -> strength is strong than dex unless you want to be stealthy, or don't want to wear very heavy armor (is there anyother reasons to not wear heavy armor than if you want to cast or go stealthy).

Accidentally thanked. It looks like characters who want to cast or be stealthy are 90+% of all characters, only worshipers of Trog with bad Dodging aptitude and DD fighters don't fall into these categories IMHO.
I prefer having 40AC/40EV over 60AC/20EV, especially if the former can cast better/more spells.

[Amnesiac]

Isn't heavier armor generally better than higher dex... -> strength is strong than dex unless you want to be stealthy, or don't want to wear very heavy armor (is there anyother reasons to not wear heavy armor than if you want to cast or go stealthy).

If you wear something like an ice dragon armour or a pearl dragon armour(haven't seen any in a loong time) and have a high armour skill you'll be able to cast spells such as haste and controlled blink at a much lower exp cost (expecially with a ring of wizardry), this makes the game much safer sooner. This also allows you to avoid most penalties to you attacks, dodging(your EV will be much higher) and stealth, while still having your AC at almost as high numbers as with a plate armour, which significantly improves your odds. If you train stealth a bit, while gaining dexterity(and you don't even need str if you don't wear heavy armours and you'll get more EV) you'll be able to avoid some unwanted fights. All that said, if you find an early crystal plate armour, you might stick with it until you eliminate most of it's penalties and still be able to cast haste at a bit higher charms.

[Azrael]

As Zion pointed out, this way is more dynamic and allows players to have greater input and control over their characters, without really damaging balance. Arbitrary HP modifiers are unnecessary and clunky when the same/similar effect can be accomplished with a universal stat based HP boost.

[Azrael]

...Is this dead?

[absolutego]

it's always been dead