Brainstorm: bringing the Stalker back!

[Velikolepni]

After the spell Fulsome Distillation and Evaporate were removed, the Stalker background was understandably also taken away. I still think however that it would be neat if a stealthy background existed that came with direct access to the Passwall and Dig spells.
Since Dig has been changed to a pure Earth magic spell, it would seem that a reworked background should be centered on Earth magic. Hence, what are needed are some level 1 and 2 spells to redesign the book of Stalking. Here are then my suggestions for the spells in a new version of the book:

1) "Soften Steps", level 1 Earth/Charms, or Earth/Transmutation or just Earth. Gives a spellpower dependent stealth bonus if the character is not in water and not flying. Using swiftness should maybe cancel the effect. The use of the spell would be obviously to help the player remain stealthy and stab. A possible problem would be that it would remain relevant to the end of the game, but maybe that would be alright.
2) "Caltrops", level 2 Earth/Hex. Uses smite targeting (maybe beam?) to place a trap which has one charge. Any monster that walks ( it doesn't affect flying monsters) on it gets damaged for a small amounth and moves slower for a while if it fails a check (HD dependent rather that MR). It is thus somewhat similar to the Hex spell "Slow", but only affects movement, doesn't affect flyers and requires two schools. It would be balanced by the strenght of the effect and the damage. The spell would be used to help the stalker get away if a stab was unsuccessful.
3) The level 3 and 4 spells in the new book of Stalking should be Passwall and Dig as before.
4) There are several options for the last spell in the book. Petrify is the simplest one. Another possibility would be a new spell, maybe an area version of the "Caltrops" one. Call it "Mass Caltrops" or give it a somewhat poetic name, like "Lehudib's crystal weeds" or something. Another possibility would be something that helps with passwall, lets say "Earth sense", which allows the stalker to sense creature that are directly on the other side of the wall. The problem with that is of course the conflict with Ashenzari.

Suggestions and criticisms are highly welcome!

[Sandman25]

I think you can start with EE, pick up a dagger and train Stealth.

[Velikolepni]

I think you can start with EE, pick up a dagger and train Stealth.

Partially yes, but you won't get Dig easily and that spell is very helpfull for using Passwall succesfully, i.e. for stabbing. In addition, one of the points of the original post was to come up with new earth spells that would complement a stabbing playstyle.

[jejorda2]

Make mass caltrops the low level spell, make the caltrops invisible and detectable with traps skill. Place them randomly within LOS and hope you don't run over them. No targetting.

[jejorda2]

There was an idea to give gargoyles a stealth boost when they were beside walls. There could be a spell that makes the player look like a wall. You'd run around a corner and use it, and there would be a stealth-based chance the monster you're running from would walk on by. Spellpower gives duration, so the monster can wander farther away.

[Velikolepni]

Make mass caltrops the low level spell, make the caltrops invisible and detectable with traps skill. Place them randomly within LOS and hope you don't run over them. No targetting.

So essentially a version of the Minefield card from the Deck of Dungeons?
By the way, can monsters detect traps and avoid them?

[Velikolepni]

There was an idea to give gargoyles a stealth boost when they were beside walls.

I think that this is still present in the latest trunk build. Gargoyles close to walls cling and get a stealth boost.

[Siegurt]

Mass caltrops seems fairly similar in effect to Leda's Liquification, maybe just use that instead?

[Velikolepni]

Mass caltrops seems fairly similar in effect to Leda's Liquification, maybe just use that instead?

Well, the original suggestion was to have it be targetable, instead of affecting the area aroung the caster. Second, Leda's Liquefaction, while suitable for a mage or an archer that wants to prevent monsters from getting near while giving the caster time to kill them from afar, is unsuitable for a stabbing playstyle. At least, I don't know how to use it.

[jejorda2]

There was an idea to give gargoyles a stealth boost when they were beside walls.

I think that this is still present in the latest trunk build. Gargoyles close to walls cling and get a stealth boost.

The latest version has clinging removed for Gargoyles, players in spider form, and all monsters that had clinging.

I'm sad to see spider clinging go. Apparently someone didn't like the message you got when you opened a door while clinging to it.

[rebthor]

I think you can start with EE, pick up a dagger and train Stealth.

Partially yes, but you won't get Dig easily and that spell is very helpfull for using Passwall succesfully, i.e. for stabbing. In addition, one of the points of the original post was to come up with new earth spells that would complement a stabbing playstyle.

Dig is now loudish, so good luck tunneling through the dungeon to get passwall stabs.

[Velikolepni]

Dig is now loudish, so good luck tunneling through the dungeon to get passwall stabs.

That is very unfortunate. What is the rationale behind this decision? I could imagine that the spell digs "softly", so verisimilitude is not the issue.

The latest version has clinging removed for Gargoyles, players in spider form, and all monsters that had clinging.

I'm sad to see spider clinging go. Apparently someone didn't like the message you got when you opened a door while clinging to it.

What message? At any case, if these sources of clinging have been removed, would it then not make sense to reintroduce it as a low-level earth magic spell?

[mumra]

I quite like the Caltrops idea, particularly the area version. However they should only last a certain amount of time; creating permanent assets from renewable assets (MP) is generally quite bad. It would also encourage setting up an area and luring enemies back there which is kind of bad gameplay. Mechanically these would be quite similar to clouds but potentially with enough difference.

Soften Steps ... a low level stealth buff could be interesting (but powerful). To limit its usefulness, have it not take stealth above a certain value; a very stealthy character is practically silent anyway so this spell wouldn't do much for them anymore. To further balance it; rename it "Muffle" and have it muffle all your sounds, making spellcasting/invo/scrolls much harder to use. Like a single-square low power silence. This might be more appropriate for Enchanter (to replace Corona).

Earth Sense would probably be a no-go, not particularly because of Ash, but because the game used to have a divinations school and this was removed for being silly and broken.

I'm not sure if there's enough material here for a Stalker reworking (particularly with one spell just being a high-power version of another) ... but the area Caltrops potentially fit quite nicely with some of my ideas for the AM background.

[Tiber]

The latest version has clinging removed for Gargoyles, players in spider form, and all monsters that had clinging.

I'm sad to see spider clinging go. Apparently someone didn't like the message you got when you opened a door while clinging to it.

What message? At any case, if these sources of clinging have been removed, would it then not make sense to reintroduce it as a low-level earth magic spell?

It seems like they felt that some of the mechanics of clinging are inconsistent, so bringing it back as a spell wouldn't work unless the mechanics behind it were made acceptable, at which point you might as well just bring it back for everything. While clinging was at best a secondary feature, its removal does seem completely stupid.

[Velikolepni]

I quite like the Caltrops idea, particularly the area version. However they should only last a certain amount of time; creating permanent assets from renewable assets (MP) is generally quite bad. It would also encourage setting up an area and luring enemies back there which is kind of bad gameplay. Mechanically these would be quite similar to clouds but potentially with enough difference.

Of course it should not last forever. Sorry for forgetting to mention it.

Soften Steps ... a low level stealth buff could be interesting (but powerful). To limit its usefulness, have it not take stealth above a certain value; a very stealthy character is practically silent anyway so this spell wouldn't do much for them anymore.

This seems like a alright balance as long as the limit is appropriately chosen.

To further balance it; rename it "Muffle" and have it muffle all your sounds, making spellcasting/invo/scrolls much harder to use. Like a single-square low power silence. This might be more appropriate for Enchanter (to replace Corona).

There are two problems with this I think. Firstly, it just seems too powerful and secondly, it doesn't seem like an earth spell anymore at all.

Earth Sense would probably be a no-go, not particularly because of Ash, but because the game used to have a divinations school and this was removed for being silly and broken.

I get that. Earth Sense was not a very serious proposal anyway.

I'm not sure if there's enough material here for a Stalker reworking (particularly with one spell just being a high-power version of another) ... but the area Caltrops potentially fit quite nicely with some of my ideas for the AM background.

Well, the original Stalker had access to a easy source of confusion via Evaporate. How about a spell, call it "Dustcloud", Earth/Hex, level 3 or 4, that creates a cloud of dust that chokes, confuses and blinds creatures. A bit like Dazzling Spray, but targetable like mephitic cloud, not affecting undead (since they don't breathe) and afflicting confusion for a while (based on HD). Maybe there is too much overlap with mephitic cloud here, so an alternative would be to make it affect the area around the caster.

[Velikolepni]

Clinging was a version of flight with really complicated rules. It was utterly pointless and I'm glad to see it gone.

I didn't use it very often but the rules seemed quite clear to me - stay near walls and you won't fall into water or lava. Was its interaction with Airstrike and some other spells the problem?

[rosstin]

It's too bad, I enjoyed clinging. There were some interesting logical puzzles with it, like using it to get to islands and not being able to get back, haha.

[twelwe]

grimm is still here, the stalker never left

[1010011010]

To further balance it; rename it "Muffle" and have it muffle all your sounds, making spellcasting/invo/scrolls much harder to use. Like a single-square low power silence. This might be more appropriate for Enchanter (to replace Corona).

There are two problems with this I think. Firstly, it just seems too powerful and secondly, it doesn't seem like an earth spell anymore at all.

I second Velikolepni's point it sounds more like air/charm magic, it should be an effect on the ground you walk on so earth or earth/Tmut and not add no bonus on flying players. You can always make the boost smaller or larger to balance, If this is to be a starting spell then I would avoid unusual double edge spells, early spells should be rather straight forwards.
Corona seems more enchanter-ish since it acts on the enemy, and is a quite a good starting spell.

I'm not sure if there's enough material here for a Stalker reworking (particularly with one spell just being a high-power version of another) ... but the area Caltrops potentially fit quite nicely with some of my ideas for the AM background.

Well, the original Stalker had access to a easy source of confusion via Evaporate. How about a spell, call it "Dustcloud", Earth/Hex, level 3 or 4, that creates a cloud of dust that chokes, confuses and blinds creatures. A bit like Dazzling Spray, but targetable like mephitic cloud, not affecting undead (since they don't breathe) and afflicting confusion for a while (based on HD). Maybe there is too much overlap with mephitic cloud here, so an alternative would be to make it affect the area around the caster.

The name Dustcloud sounds like a earth version of fog, with short lived dust instead. could be stealth method to get closer to a target as well as a escape tool.
Your dustcloud seems like a mephitic cloud copy and more earth/conj than hex.

Also should mention I'm all for caltrops and any interesting spell encourage positioning.

[Velikolepni]

After reading the criticisms, I have arrived at the following modified proposal for the Book of Stalking.
1) "Soft Steps", Level 1 Earth/Charms, spellpower dependent bonus to stealth. A very tentative proposal would be 0.8 per spellpower, max 80. Cannot improve stealth above 300, i.e. cannot improve beyond "extremely stealthy". Doesn't work in water or while flying, gets cancelled by swiftness.
2) "Caltrop", Level 2 Earth/Hexes. Targetted like Mephitic cloud, smaller range. Places 1d4 or so caltrops in the target area that are hidden to the player and to the monsters. The caltrops can be detected with the Traps skill and disappear after a dozen turns at most. Monsters that walk on them (not flying) get a little damaged and have a HD dependent chance of having significantly reduced movement delay. Give the spell to deep troll earth mages for extra fun!
3) "Passwall", Level 3 Earth/Transmutation, as now
4) "Dig", Level 4 Earth, as but maybe with reduced noise?
5a) "Petrify", Level 4 Earth/Transmutation as now
5b) "Puddle Form", Level 4 or 5 Earth/Transmutation. Merges the caster with the floor with the following effects: 1) significantly increased stealth of around 100 or more, 2) slower movement 3) casting penalty like Spider Form, 4) cannot attack, 5) can transform back into normal form quickly and silently, 6)cannot enter water or fly. The idea is to recreate this scene http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJejZrtVtMc in dungeon crawl.
In order to make useful in combat, maybe make it so that the transformation is fast and have monsters lose track of the player at the beginning, unless they can see invisible.
5c) Insert proposal here.

Another spell that I have been thinking about would be "Elastic Limbs", Level 2 or 3 Transmutation or Transmutation/Charms. It would essentially give the ability to attack as if wielding a reaching weapon, thus allowing the caster to stab from range 2. Unfortunately, it doesn't really fit into the above book.

[DracheReborn]

Another spell that I have been thinking about would be "Elastic Limbs", Level 2 or 3 Transmutation or Transmutation/Charms. It would essentially give the ability to attack as if wielding a reaching weapon, thus allowing the caster to stab from range 2. Unfortunately, it doesn't really fit into the above book.

Hah, that's a pretty interesting idea. Still, stabbing is very powerful already, not sure it needs a reaching buff. And what happens if you're wielding a Polearm? Can you strike 3 squares away?

Adding this spell to a UC Transmuter's arsenal would be pretty cool though. I'd prefer it over Beastly Appendage at least.

[Velikolepni]

Hah, that's a pretty interesting idea. Still, stabbing is very powerful already, not sure it needs a reaching buff.

I'm not interested un buffing stabbing per se, rather in creating an alternative background of spells that complements stabbing so that the current situation in which almost all stabbers start as Enchanters in mitigated. If "Elastic Limbs" is too strongs in the original formulation, maybe it can be nerfed so as to not allow tier one stabs and/or have an accuracy malus.

And what happens if you're wielding a Polearm? Can you strike 3 squares away?

Probably not, lets not get too crazy.

Adding this spell to a UC Transmuter's arsenal would be pretty cool though. I'd prefer it over Beastly Appendage at least.

I'm not sure that it would be of much help to an UC melee combatant. Whenever I play a polearm specialist, the reaching properties, while nice, are rarely game-changing.

[khalil]

One spell that might work well with dig would be this:
Muffle(earth/charms):
Level whatever you see fit
Your earth spells create less noise. This caps out at one third base noise.

It works with the sneaky theme, and solves the problem of dig waking people up.