The Tavern

As someone who uses conjure flame quite often, I've noticed some strange behavior when refreshing a cloud that is diminishing. It seems that about half the time, when refreshing a dying cloud I get the response that the fire roars with new energy, but in practice no extra longevity is provided. That cloud which was likely 2 turns from expiring, still expires in 2 turns. I've gotten to the point now where I often won't even attempt to renew an existing cloud but just cast a new one adjacent to it. (Not always an option though).

Is this documented anywhere and is this intentional behavior? Am I completely imagining the phenomenon or have others observed this as well?

(Apologizes if this has been brought up previously).

Edit:

Just be sure I wasn't crazy I ran a trial of 10 new casts verse 10 refresh casts. Average turn life of a new cast was 17.9 and the average turn life of a refresh was 6.2 (which is actually smaller considering by definition some of the original cloud's strength would have lasted 2-3 more turns).

So a conservative estimate is the refresh conjure flame has a 3rd of the staying power and since it spends most of it's life in a fading state, provides considerably less damage per turn).

2nd Edit:

According the wiki a cloud has a max life span of 23 turns. I didn't consider this to be an absolute max life span regardless of additional casts, so that is very likely the explanation for the reduced refresh time. Can anyone explain the rationale behind having a fixed maximum turn limit?

This is intentional:

Code:: if (cloud != EMPTY_CLOUD) { // Reinforce the cloud - but not too much. // It must be a fire cloud from a previous test. mpr("The fire roars with new energy!"); const int extra_dur = 2 + min(random2(pow) / 2, 20); env.cloud[cloud].decay += extra_dur * 5; env.cloud[cloud].set_whose(KC_YOU); } else { const int durat = min(5 + (random2(pow)/2) + (random2(pow)/2), 23); place_cloud(CLOUD_FIRE, where, durat, &you); mpr("The fire roars!"); }

So yeah - the duration increase will always be lower than the original cast on average.

This seems like a balancing measure. Conjure flame is really pretty strong and being able to increase the cloud duration by that much would be quite powerful.

To tell the truth I had vaguely noticed this effect but not really thought much about it.

It seems most noticeable at low spell power.....coincidentally when I'm also most likely to be renewing a conjured flame. It isn't really much of a problem but mainly because I no longer bother to do it unless renewing it and running seems like the best available option.

We should use the same approach for all spells. Being unable to effectively spam Bolt of Foo or Iron Shot could lead to more varied tactics. Not sure if I want to create a separate thread for this.

Sandman25 wrote:We should use the same approach for all spells. Being unable to effectively spam Bolt of Foo or Iron Shot could lead to more varied tactics. Not sure if I want to create a separate thread for this.

Is this supposed to be a joke, I can't tell. Do you think we should make hitting things repeatedly with a weapon ineffective too?

mumra wrote:
Sandman25 wrote:We should use the same approach for all spells. Being unable to effectively spam Bolt of Foo or Iron Shot could lead to more varied tactics. Not sure if I want to create a separate thread for this.

Is this supposed to be a joke, I can't tell. Do you think we should make hitting things repeatedly with a weapon ineffective too?

I just find it weird to have inconsistent behaviour of the spell. Perhaps this can be fixed by changing in-game description ("The spell is not very effective when refreshing a cloud" or something like that).

Sandman25 wrote:I just find it weird to have inconsistent behaviour of the spell. Perhaps this can be fixed by changing in-game description ("The spell is not very effective when refreshing a cloud" or something like that).

That does seem slightly easier than changing every spell and rebalancing the entire game, sure.

Some spells lend themselves well to a limitation like this. Things that actually work over multiple turns (clouds, summons, transmutations) this makes sense for and in fact most spells like that do carry such a penalty.

But for single-turn conjurations it would just be a really strange mechanic. I mean try to imagine how this would play out. You'd just learn two conjurations and alternate them, or take a step between each turn, or give up and play another game, depending on how this was implemented. We also already have a situation where you often want to learn more than one conjuration anyway.

Sure the Summons caps were designed with the express intention of making the player use multiple spells, but it's very different casting a spell once to get mobile killing machines for many turns, to casting a spell once to do damage just that turn.

mumra wrote:
Sandman25 wrote:I just find it weird to have inconsistent behaviour of the spell. Perhaps this can be fixed by changing in-game description ("The spell is not very effective when refreshing a cloud" or something like that).

That does seem slightly easier than changing every spell and rebalancing the entire game, sure.

Some spells lend themselves well to a limitation like this. Things that actually work over multiple turns (clouds, summons, transmutations) this makes sense for and in fact most spells like that do carry such a penalty.

But for single-turn conjurations it would just be a really strange mechanic. I mean try to imagine how this would play out. You'd just learn two conjurations and alternate them, or take a step between each turn, or give up and play another game, depending on how this was implemented. We also already have a situation where you often want to learn more than one conjuration anyway.

Sure the Summons caps were designed with the express intention of making the player use multiple spells, but it's very different casting a spell once to get mobile killing machines for many turns, to casting a spell once to do damage just that turn.

Yes, I realized my suggestion was bad when you mentioned melee weapons. Thank you for the detailed explanation!

The trick about conjure flame is that it always expires at the beginning of a player turn, not on the enemies turn. So renew it on the turn it ends, there will never be a gap, and you will always have max duration for minimum mana.

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