Orb of Zot and apportation spell


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Halls Hopper

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Post Wednesday, 10th July 2013, 21:43

Orb of Zot and apportation spell

Taking an Orb in the hand (into the inventory) might be extremally dangerous, because it causes hordes of demons to appear. I noticed that some people, instead of taking the Orb immediately from the ground, apport it dozens of times from the Orb original cell nearly to the Zot 5 upper stairs. Then they take the Orb and exit a level. This helps avoid unleashing hell forces at least on a deepest level of Zot. That`s a sort of grinding.

I think there are two ways to solve the problem:
=> either the Orb is supposed to be completely unapportable item (you should only take it from the ground)
=> or it`s the disappearance of the Orb from the original Orb cell, that causes the attack of the hell forces. That is, Orb laying in its cell = hell forces OFF, Orb missing from its cell (does not matter if taken or apported) = hell forces ON.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 10th July 2013, 21:57

Re: Orb of Zot and apportation spell

Technically I think they're pandemonium forces, at least Pan lords are among the nonsense that shows up.
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Slime Squisher

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Post Wednesday, 10th July 2013, 22:09

Re: Orb of Zot and apportation spell

This means you need to clear the path from the orb chamber to the < which is more dangerous than orb spawns anyway so there's really no problem

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 10th July 2013, 22:21

Re: Orb of Zot and apportation spell

Not having random demon spawns for one level seems kind of trivial since you'll have to deal with the other 31 floors of demon spawns anyways. I suppose zot:5 is more dangerous than those other 31 floors, but not if you've cleared most of it. Usually going back through your cleared half of the floor is pretty safe, and anything dangerous you run into would likely be a left over OOF or ancient lich, not the pack of orange demons spawned by carrying the orb.

Do people really bother apporting it 10-15 times? I know apporting it once to avoid going further towards the other "lung" of zot:5 is fairly common, this is the first I heard about dragging it to stairs, though.
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Halls Hopper

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Post Wednesday, 10th July 2013, 22:31

Re: Orb of Zot and apportation spell

@tasonir
"I suppose zot:5 is more dangerous than those other 31 floors, but not if you've cleared most of it."

But the Zot:5 is not an obvious level, it`s particularly dangerous, even cleared from the "regulars", since you cannot teleport on this level. That means, when you picked up the Orb and the demons starts flooding the level, you need to fight your way to the stairs without using teleportation, like on the upper ones. Apporting the Orb to the stairs cancels this threat.

Shoals Surfer

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Post Wednesday, 10th July 2013, 22:40

Re: Orb of Zot and apportation spell

Unless something changed quite recently, you can teleport on Zot:5. And the Orb delays teleports and prevents cTele.

Vestibule Violator

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Post Wednesday, 10th July 2013, 23:33

Re: Orb of Zot and apportation spell

Apporting the orb to the stairs seems like a terrible idea. It will scream a bunch, and call nearby Zot:5 monsters to you. To me this sounds far more dangerous than the orb run demons.

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Post Thursday, 11th July 2013, 01:19

Re: Orb of Zot and apportation spell

adamo901 wrote:since you cannot teleport on this level.

what
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Thursday, 11th July 2013, 01:25

Re: Orb of Zot and apportation spell

BEST SUGGESTION: EVERY TIME YOU OR THE ORB BLINKS OR TELEPORTS, SUMMONS KLOWN.

EVERYONE LOVE KLOWN
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Dungeon Master

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Post Thursday, 11th July 2013, 01:29

Re: Orb of Zot and apportation spell

I've seen numerous people do this and yes, players will try any crazy thing if they believe it gives them a slight edge, even if it's really boring gameplay. This is why there's a tendency to try and avoid these kind of problems in the game's design.

Anyway what I think would work best is if using apportation on the orb just instantly apports it into your inventory, beginning the orb run immediately. So you can swipe it from across the room but then you've still got to get out carrying it.

Also, what TeshiAlair said.
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Tartarus Sorceror

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Post Thursday, 11th July 2013, 03:45

Re: Orb of Zot and apportation spell

On a tangential note, why is the orb on the ground? Like, shouldn't The Most Powerful Artefact at least be on a pedestal or countertop or desk or something? It'll just get dirty on the floor.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 11th July 2013, 04:05

Re: Orb of Zot and apportation spell

What's all this about not clearing out all of Zot:5?
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Dungeon Master

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Post Thursday, 11th July 2013, 05:47

Re: Orb of Zot and apportation spell

Arrhythmia wrote:On a tangential note, why is the orb on the ground? Like, shouldn't The Most Powerful Artefact at least be on a pedestal or countertop or desk or something? It'll just get dirty on the floor.


The Orb Chamber is the pedestal.

Now what on earth does the Orb do?
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Thursday, 11th July 2013, 06:49

Re: Orb of Zot and apportation spell

brendan wrote:
Arrhythmia wrote:On a tangential note, why is the orb on the ground? Like, shouldn't The Most Powerful Artefact at least be on a pedestal or countertop or desk or something? It'll just get dirty on the floor.


The Orb Chamber is the pedestal.

Now what on earth does the Orb do?


It supplies the magic behind compound interest? :)

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 11th July 2013, 06:56

Re: Orb of Zot and apportation spell

I would prefer to clear the whole ZoT5 with Fire Storm, Wucad Mu and Na of Chei. Then I would use the apportation trick to bring the orb to some upstairs. Please let me know if I am missing something.

Shoals Surfer

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Post Thursday, 11th July 2013, 07:15

Re: Orb of Zot and apportation spell

You're missing the fact that nothing the Orb does is as dangerous as clearing Zot:5. Sure you can storm in with your 15-rune UberNaga and laugh at everything in Zot:5, but in that case the Orb spawns are a joke to you.

Either
A--You clear Zot:5, in which case there's NO REASON to apport the orb (as then it's identical to every single other floor on the orbrun, so who cares). All it accomplishes is wasting turns.
B--You don't clear Zot:5, in which case apport-chaining is ridiculously stupid for obvious reasons.

I don't why you would possibly decide to spend MORE time on the most dangerous floor in the game.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 11th July 2013, 08:09

Re: Orb of Zot and apportation spell

Volteccer_Jack wrote:A--You clear Zot:5, in which case there's NO REASON to apport the orb (as then it's identical to every single other floor on the orbrun, so who cares). All it accomplishes is wasting turns.


There is a very important reason - monster generation without the orb is much slower.
Personally I don't care about turns at all.

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Post Thursday, 11th July 2013, 09:07

Re: Orb of Zot and apportation spell

Sandman25 wrote:There is a very important reason - monster generation without the orb is much slower.
Personally I don't care about turns at all.


B-but-- you spend about 100x longer on Zot:5 because you're apporting the Orb (and making a ton of noise about it).

I still think it's better to just disallow the technique altogether. It can still refuse to apport a few times as currently, then when it succeeds just jumps straight into your inventory; so apportation is only actually a turn quicker at best.

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Post Thursday, 11th July 2013, 09:12

Re: Orb of Zot and apportation spell

mumra wrote:
Sandman25 wrote:There is a very important reason - monster generation without the orb is much slower.
Personally I don't care about turns at all.


B-but-- you spend about 100x longer on Zot:5 because you're apporting the Orb (and making a ton of noise about it).

I still think it's better to just disallow the technique altogether. It can still refuse to apport a few times as currently, then when it succeeds just jumps straight into your inventory; so apportation is only actually a turn quicker at best.


Perhaps I worded it wrong - I don't use multiple apportations when the level is not fully cleared, that's obviously a bad idea. But when the level is cleared (I usually do it if it is relatively safe, I don't like 3 runes games), apportation helps. I agree disabling apportation for orb is a good idea, it would make ZoT5 more interesting IMHO.

Halls Hopper

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Post Thursday, 11th July 2013, 09:40

Re: Orb of Zot and apportation spell

Sandman25 wrote:Perhaps I worded it wrong - I don't use multiple apportations when the level is not fully cleared, that's obviously a bad idea. But when the level is cleared (I usually do it if it is relatively safe, I don't like 3 runes games), apportation helps. I agree disabling apportation for orb is a good idea, it would make ZoT5 more interesting IMHO.


After a 15-rune game you don't really have any problems with the orb run. Of course, you could find one or two "OMG ORB RUN TOTALLY KILLED ME" YASD posts, but it is not hte case most of the time.

Dungeon Master

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Post Thursday, 11th July 2013, 09:54

Re: Orb of Zot and apportation spell

mumra wrote:
I still think it's better to just disallow the technique altogether. It can still refuse to apport a few times as currently, then when it succeeds just jumps straight into your inventory; so apportation is only actually a turn quicker at best.

I still don't see the point of that. I agree with what others said, if players want to do something dumb, then let them. Attempting to reduce the "tedium" of a completely batshit tactic like apport-dragging isn't really a goal of Crawl's design. And it doesn't justify making the orb chamber easier for everyone else. One turn tends to matter a lot more than you'd think.

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Dungeon Master

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Post Thursday, 11th July 2013, 12:27

Re: Orb of Zot and apportation spell

Sandman25 wrote:But when the level is cleared (I usually do it if it is relatively safe, I don't like 3 runes games), apportation helps.

No, it's still a terrible idea. Zot:5 has random spawn just like any other level, and they are much more threatening than the orb run spawn.

evilmike wrote:I agree with what others said, if players want to do something dumb, then let them. Attempting to reduce the "tedium" of a completely batshit tactic like apport-dragging isn't really a goal of Crawl's design.

Agreed too.
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Post Thursday, 11th July 2013, 16:04

Re: Orb of Zot and apportation spell

brendan wrote:
Arrhythmia wrote:On a tangential note, why is the orb on the ground? Like, shouldn't The Most Powerful Artefact at least be on a pedestal or countertop or desk or something? It'll just get dirty on the floor.


The Orb Chamber is the pedestal.

Now what on earth does the Orb do?

Spooky action at a distance?
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Post Friday, 12th July 2013, 04:15

Re: Orb of Zot and apportation spell

brendan wrote:
Arrhythmia wrote:On a tangential note, why is the orb on the ground? Like, shouldn't The Most Powerful Artefact at least be on a pedestal or countertop or desk or something? It'll just get dirty on the floor.


The Orb Chamber is the pedestal.

Now what on earth does the Orb do?


The Orb gazes at you orbingly.
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 12th July 2013, 04:59

Re: Orb of Zot and apportation spell

I don't quite "get" why everything gets locked up once you pick up the orb. Just leave the doors open and continue to generating pan shit all over the place. Have fun beating the Hells with that challenge!
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Post Friday, 12th July 2013, 16:00

Re: Orb of Zot and apportation spell

Sandman25 wrote:I would prefer to clear the whole ZoT5 with Fire Storm, Wucad Mu and Na of Chei. Then I would use the apportation trick to bring the orb to some upstairs. Please let me know if I am missing something.

Necromutation.

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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Friday, 12th July 2013, 16:13

Re: Orb of Zot and apportation spell

Wahaha wrote:
Sandman25 wrote:I would prefer to clear the whole ZoT5 with Fire Storm, Wucad Mu and Na of Chei. Then I would use the apportation trick to bring the orb to some upstairs. Please let me know if I am missing something.

Necromutation.


No, I am not missing it. I am a big fan of the spell.

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