New spell: recall ammo

[MrPlanck]

Affects only fired ammo in line of sight. Make it mid level, 5-6, so it doesn't negate early game challenges. But late game it is rarely desirable to use auto-explore in order to gather up fired ammo because you venture into unexplored territory and it burns turns.

I know this has been discussed before, but more in the context of infinite ammo. I like the current implementation, and think ammo should be finite and its use should be strategic.

I usually like to play random race+class, so when I get a hunter type I go with it as far as I can. But I may start skipping them because the ammo gathering late-game, when I get that far, is tedious and mind-numbing and just not fun.

Note: replaced "summon spell" with "spell" in title for simplicity

[MoogleDan]

This sounds a lot like a Mass Apportation spell, though I see that you want it to only affect fired ammo. Shouldn't it be a Translocations spell?

[MrPlanck]

Sure, translocations works. And would generally be preferred over summon. The school doesn't matter to me.

[Bloax]

Well it could certainly be a thing, but having it be level 5/6 would be outright silly since it'd be in the same spell level as things like "Metabolic Englaciation", "Fireball" and "Phase shift";
Which have a slightly stronger effect than LOS-wide ammo apportation. (And only for shots fired by you!)

I mean Leda's Liquefaction and Throw Icicle are both level 4 spells, and while both are probably over-the-top examples - it still seems very much off to have artificially high spell levels.

[BlackSheep]

We have a spell that gathers things from within LOS. I have an idea percolating to improve Apportation by making it prioritize items marked for autopickup, but I don't think the idea in the OP has legs.

[MrPlanck]

Good points. I would be willing to learn it as a level 6 spell. Lower level is fine with me, I just didn't want it to interfere with some early game decisions.

[Bloax]

I have an idea percolating to improve Apportation by making it prioritize items marked for autopickup.

This really should've been in the game in the first place, since "Why yes, I do want to apport that potion of paralysis instead of that scroll of blinking! Who wouldn't ever do that!" is actually something I've experienced.
And unless apportation completely ignoring autopickup rules simply to fuck with you because it's a level 1 spell is a Good Idea (which it isn't), the fact that it can prioritize literal floor trash over anything useful is simply dumb.

Good points. I would be willing to learn it as a level 6 spell. Lower level is fine with me, I just didn't want it to interfere with some early game decisions.

You wouldn't spend precious experience on learning even a level 4 spell that does something so trivial that you already do it yourself early-game, you'd learn a spell like that because you have an excess of spell slots without much to invest in.

[1010011010]

Does this spell have any merit in a fight? When not in a fight, it seems more like a convenience spell stepping on apportations toes.

When I read the title, what came to mind was a cross level ammo summon (but that sounds like something for one of the countless god of hunting).

[Amnesiac]

The somewhat opposite mass portal projectile would be cool for arcane marksmen

[rosstin]

How about if the arrows do their damage on the way back to you, as they fly through the bodies of the things between you and them?

That would make havoc for yaktaurs and centaurs.

[MrPlanck]

Does this spell have any merit in a fight? When not in a fight, it seems more like a convenience spell stepping on apportations toes.

I could have merit during a fight, but that isn't the idea. The idea is to reduce mindless BS after the fight. Except in early game, I have never run out of ammo during a fight. I would be willing to invest in a mid level spell to get rid of the boring monotony of missile collection. If it doesn't have legs that's fine. Then I know to just avoid the tedious hunter/arcane classes in the future.

[ontoclasm]

boring monotony of missile collection

I guess I don't understand the problem. Here are the (positively grueling) steps I take to collect the ammo I've fired after a fight:

1) Press o

[MrPlanck]

boring monotony of missile collection

I guess I don't understand the problem. Here are the (positively grueling) steps I take to collect the ammo I've fired after a fight:

1) Press o

Perhaps you didn't read all of my post.

[Amnesiac]

You are worried about burning turns? Are you not worried about burning your exp on a spell nearly useless for combat? Are you a pro speedruner, or something? As for autoexplore walking you into unexplored parts, I'm not sure the problem is exsistent, you'll have to "explore the unexplored" anyway. Well, you could press esc after picking up everything if you are so worried. If you are worried about any particular part of unexplored territory, just use apportation.

[MrPlanck]

You are worried about burning turns? Are you not worried about burning your exp on a spell nearly useless for combat? Are you a pro speedruner, or something?

Not a speedrunner by any means, but I am working on reducing turns. That's a tertiary issue, though. There are two more important issues.

1. Autoexplore to pick up ammo is risky and unwise in many late stage areas. Nothing quite like sweeping up 40 spent arrows on autoexplore and bumping into a horde of fiends or a demon lord unprepared.

2. The tedium. I just completed a 15 rune win with a centaur and that is probably my last hunter type because the arrow gathering in Pan and hells was the opposite of fun. I found myself tending to want to melee instead. So what is the point of a ranged class if it is too tedious to enjoy as a ranged class? One simple spell to gather ammo would fix it, at least for me.

[Amnesiac]

But how do you not bump into a horde of fiends without using autoexplore?

[ZionRavescene]

I like throwing large rocks. It's fun. Also, unlike other missiles, running out of large rocks happens all the time.

There is a big difference between exploring the vault on elf:3 with a pile of rocks in inventory, or a pile of rocks at the edge of line of sight. Apportation fixes this, but the apportation targetting algorithm is abyssmal. I think changing apportation to prioritize auto-pickup items would remove any complaints I have regarding tedium.

[bobross419]

But how do you not bump into a horde of fiends without using autoexplore?

The difference is running into the horde of fiends without all your ammo or with all your ammo. The safe way to handle this would be apportation, which would mean multiple casts using aweful targetting mechanics... which is tedious.

[XuaXua]

The OP's original spell should be Charms/Translocations, and after cast, give a temporary status to the player so that any ammo fired/launched/thrown will be auto-branded with an additional temporary Returning brand. Solved.

[galehar]

In addition to the aforementioned targetting improvement to apportation, the OP could be served by an auto-loot command (autopickup but doesn't explore). Bind it to O (it's useless anyway). With it, you can safely and easily recover your ammo while regenerating without the risk of running into the unknown at half health.
When there are interface issues, better to address them than introduce spells that work around them.

[Amnesiac]

If apportation will target autopickupable items this will solve most of it, as you can just bind it on one button and press it a few times quickly.

[Sandman25]

Make Z with apportation apport only ammo (or autopickupable items) while leaving z as it works now. This way one can create a macro like ZaZaZaZaZa to apport 5 arrows by pressing a single button. Unfortunately it will only work if multiturn macros pause when a new monster enters into LoS otherwise it can kill the player.

[BlackSheep]

Wow, the target code is complicated. Making apportation favor autopickup items will be nontrivial.

[bcadren]

The OP's original spell should be Charms/Translocations, and after cast, give a temporary status to the player so that any ammo fired/launched/thrown will be auto-branded with an additional temporary Returning brand. Solved.

Auto-Branding spells in general are kind of cool; but I don't think they currently effect ammo. I do like this idea though and it would have a bit more utility than just returning; it'd allow you to have semi-infinite ammo at high enough skill level (reduced mulching or being eaten by slime as it doesn't hit the ground). I think this will have more utility than the suggestion and do most of what it suggests. Having an idea...not going to hijack this thread so post a new one soon.

[mikee]

We have a spell that gathers things from within LOS. I have an idea percolating to improve Apportation by making it prioritize items marked for autopickup, but I don't think the idea in the OP has legs.

I think the problem (or part of it, anyway) might actually be that apportation's default target is the item closest to you. Ironically, when you are using this spell, you probably want it on the item farthest from you.

[BlackSheep]

The spell could be improved in a number of ways, with varying amounts of work. The target code is very consolidated, though, being used not just by spells and abilities, but also map mode. Apportation needs to be special cased (it already has a unique target flag among spells) to do anything fancy.