.12 vault enemies ironically make V:5 easier for some builds

[rebthor]

I noticed this recently on my HOPr and it's perhaps not a real issue. I'm also unsure if this is the correct board for this.

What I noticed was that after dealing with all the creatures notified of me between mark, the signal horn and word of recall the rest of vaults:5 was essentially empty. While it didn't make too much of a difference to this particular character since it could and did just slug it out with a bit of stair dancing thrown in, I can envision a situation with a character that kites a bit and causes a significant portion of the level to be woken, aware of its presence and then teleports to the now empty areas to loot and escape.

To me it seems almost like using projected noise which I believe was removed due to being so OP. Now perhaps this is an edge case that doesn't really matter, I don't know.

[tasonir]

I had one run like this, where a signal horn was blown while I was still stair dancing in the middle. Took about 20-30 minutes to finally clear the stairs, but after that the rest of the level only had 1-2 monsters left in each corner. I'm not sure if this is really a huge problem, though. Just a different variation on the ending? The stair dancing was still pretty dangerous, and I think vault:5 is designed to force stair dancing anyways

[Sandman25]

Perhaps Vault sentinels should be removed from Vaults 5 indeed. They are ok on other levels though. Or maybe just make Sentinel's Mark have intrinsic Dimension Anchor preventing teleports/blinks like some new forest unit does.

[crate]

Mark doesn't actually make vault:5 easier most of the time. In fact it's by a lot the scariest thing that is reasonably likely to happen in v:5 for many characters.

[Sandman25]

Is it possible to generate monsters based on character? Like holy pan levels are not generated for good gods worshipers. It could solve all possible problems with Sentinel's Mark being good for one character and bad for another. Though it could be too complicated/subjective I guess.

[joellercoaster]

I think vault:5 is designed to force stair dancing anyways

I have stair danced it with some characters, but generally try not to as you are forced to tank a lot of different threats for quite some time. Walking (or better, blinking) out along one of the corridors is much less hairy!

[ackack]

Mark doesn't actually make vault:5 easier most of the time. In fact it's by a lot the scariest thing that is reasonably likely to happen in v:5 for many characters.

Yep. I don't think there's any problem that needs to be fixed here.

[XuaXua]

Point the openings of the four vaults to either individual corners, or 2 each to the middle top and bottom.

[TeshiAlair]

1. Tornado or Shatter make the welcoming party a piece of cake.

2. Maybe have doors around the welcoming party, this way the sub-vault monsters know where you are and are just waiting for you to come at them.

[rebthor]

Mark doesn't actually make vault:5 easier most of the time. In fact it's by a lot the scariest thing that is reasonably likely to happen in v:5 for many characters.

Hasted/swift character has little to fear, yakety saxing everyone around until mark falls off and then random or preferably controlled porting.

So yeah, it's dangerous but I also wonder if it's abusable.

[njvack]

I'm having trouble thinking of any situation where I'd want all of V:5 chasing me instead of, um, less than all of V:5. First time I got marked there was a definite anal pucker moment.

[rebthor]

OK, fair enough. I guess I'm on the wrong side of this. I just found it very weird to have V:5 almost completely empty after clearing the welcoming party and all its adds.

[joellercoaster]

1. Tornado or Shatter make the welcoming party a piece of cake.

This is true of much of the game though.

[khalil]

I'm having trouble thinking of any situation where I'd want all of V:5 chasing me instead of, um, less than all of V:5. First time I got marked there was a definite anal pucker moment.

It is a good thing if you're a necromancer with a bunch of zombies on the floor above. Stairdance up, and then anyone who follows you is drowning in a sea of meatshields. However, this is only useful with allies who can't go from floor to floor, which means necromancers that don't have twisted resurrection. Good for 50% of one class, bad for everyone else.

[Mankeli]

I'm having trouble thinking of any situation where I'd want all of V:5 chasing me instead of, um, less than all of V:5. First time I got marked there was a definite anal pucker moment.

It is a good thing if you're a necromancer with a bunch of zombies on the floor above. Stairdance up, and then anyone who follows you is drowning in a sea of meatshields. However, this is only useful with allies who can't go from floor to floor, which means necromancers that don't have twisted resurrection. Good for 50% of one class, bad for everyone else.

If you are spending time marked in V:5 with all the chambers uncleared your character may never reach the upstairs though so I'm not convinced even the 50 % of one class assesment is correct.

[khalil]

@Mankeli
The marking is actually what helps, it results in the monsters from the chambers coming out so I can stairdance them to death. If I wasn't marked, then I'd have to go into the chambers to get the monsters' attention, and then I'd have to run all the way back to the upstairs.

[Bloax]

A strong character that can steamroll Vaults:5 will of course have an easier time clearing it if the monsters come by themselves instead of having to look for them.

This, however - does not mean that you'll want to run really,

Really,

REALLY FAST
if you get marked and you can't steamroll it.

Because otherwise SOMEONE is in for a scoreboard view very, very soon.

[njvack]

It is a good thing if you're a necromancer with a bunch of zombies on the floor above. Stairdance up, and then anyone who follows you is drowning in a sea of meatshields. However, this is only useful with allies who can't go from floor to floor, which means necromancers that don't have twisted resurrection. Good for 50% of one class, bad for everyone else.

I recommend trying this strategy and seeing how it works out...

I've never really found stairdancing V:$ to be good, honestly -- letting a bunch of stone giants and yak caps get free shots as you try to draw 'em up is really painful. I don't see how inviting all the level's titans and liches to cast airstrike and summon fiends while you do it is supposed to make it easier.

[rosstin]

Vaults is such a deathtrap. If you stairdance, it's really hard, and if you teleport to a random floor location, it's hard to retreat if you need to.

[1010011010]

Vaults is such a deathtrap. If you stairdance, it's really hard, and if you teleport to a random floor location, it's hard to retreat if you need to.

I found a combination of ctele, ?tele, ?mapping and butterfly spam to work well for less defensive builds but then you have to b confident that you can clear it since your stairs are gone.