Why don't Str and Dex add any offensive ability to Melee?


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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 1st July 2013, 21:30

Why don't Str and Dex add any offensive ability to Melee?

At least according to the manual, Strength only affects the ability to use Armour and Dexterity only affects the ability to use Missiles and Dodge.
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Post Monday, 1st July 2013, 21:37

Re: Why don't Str and Dex add any offensive ability to Melee

Str affects damage, but it's totally inconsequential unless you've got a huge amount of str and a very big weapon. Dex affects to-hit and, at least for some weapons, damage, but here the effect is even less significant.

http://crawl.develz.org/info/index.php?q=str

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Post Monday, 1st July 2013, 21:50

Re: Why don't Str and Dex add any offensive ability to Melee

Several of the formulas in that post are now out of date. A lot of thought has gone into making str more important.

For one, that 78 is now 39 (doubling the effect). Str and armor is no longer 3*ev, because the encumbrance system is now used instead of -ev. Adding more strength lowers the evasion penalty further, although with diminishing returns.
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Post Monday, 1st July 2013, 22:01

Re: Why don't Str and Dex add any offensive ability to Melee

I would think there should be considerations to updating it in the manual. As it stands, there is nothing referring to anything. From a usability standpoint, not having those listed diminishes the perceived value of the attributes.

- -

On a semi-related, probably completely incorrect note, I thought there were weapons that worked better with a higher strength and a lower dexterity and vice-versa; did that get removed?
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Post Monday, 1st July 2013, 22:39

Re: Why don't Str and Dex add any offensive ability to Melee

tasonir wrote:A lot of thought has gone into making str more important.

And yet it still doesn't matter.

diminishes the perceived value of the attributes.

That's probably good, since the correct answer is "int".
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Post Monday, 1st July 2013, 22:54

Re: Why don't Str and Dex add any offensive ability to Melee

XuaXua wrote:I would think there should be considerations to updating it in the manual. As it stands, there is nothing referring to anything. From a usability standpoint, not having those listed diminishes the perceived value of the attributes.

- -

On a semi-related, probably completely incorrect note, I thought there were weapons that worked better with a higher strength and a lower dexterity and vice-versa; did that get removed?
Strength and Dexterity's effects on melee were once documented in the manual and even in-game - weapons "that worked better with higher strength" (Yes, they still exist) had a description along the lines of "It favors the strong". It was removed for the same reason GDR isn't described in-game: the effect is so small it just confuses people. The effects of the stats on melee are completely negligible - I've never noticed it, and you've said you've never noticed, and I've never heard somebody Say "I am picking this Stat to improve my melee abilities."
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Post Monday, 1st July 2013, 23:07

Re: Why don't Str and Dex add any offensive ability to Melee

Also see this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8416

In game design discussion, it has at least one proponent, and if implemented it would mean Str/Dex were significantly more relevant to melee.
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Post Tuesday, 2nd July 2013, 07:16

Re: Why don't Str and Dex add any offensive ability to Melee

If something's not even worth mentioning then why have it exist in the first place? It's like elegance and intuitive design are strange and obscure concepts or something.

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Post Tuesday, 2nd July 2013, 13:25

Re: Why don't Str and Dex add any offensive ability to Melee

You are not the first to suggest removing strength weighting. The impression I've formed from reading similar discussions is that some sort of stat overhaul is needed to bring all three in balance, and that might impact the decision to remove the weighting code.

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Post Tuesday, 2nd July 2013, 15:48

Re: Why don't Str and Dex add any offensive ability to Melee

Removing strength weighting doesn't seem like a big deal. Removing the strength contribution to melee damage sounds like a harder sell. I'm not entirely sure what snow was suggesting is "not even worth mentioning."

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Post Tuesday, 2nd July 2013, 18:53

Re: Why don't Str and Dex add any offensive ability to Melee

Thread seems more suited to GDD. Moved.

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Post Tuesday, 2nd July 2013, 19:08

Re: Why don't Str and Dex add any offensive ability to Melee

snow wrote:If something's not even worth mentioning then why have it exist in the first place?

Well, the effect has been doubled, so maybe the description will make a come back. Maybe the effect of stats on melee is noticeable now. A tripled effect was briefly tested in a branch and it was considered too much, so I guess with a double effect, it might be fine.

BlackSheep wrote:The impression I've formed from reading similar discussions is that some sort of stat overhaul is needed to bring all three in balance, and that might impact the decision to remove the weighting code.

I don't think an overhaul is needed, and none is planned AFAIK. Dex and int seems already quite balanced, and with the recent buffs to str, it's catching up.
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Post Tuesday, 2nd July 2013, 19:27

Re: Why don't Str and Dex add any offensive ability to Melee

I still think that str weighting should be removed since it's pretty silly imo. Dex is good enough for all the non-damage things it does anyway. Let str be the entire effect on damage and work how it does now for armour and stats seem ok to me.

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Post Tuesday, 2nd July 2013, 19:31

Re: Why don't Str and Dex add any offensive ability to Melee

We still have the curious case of launcher damage.

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Post Tuesday, 2nd July 2013, 19:35

Re: Why don't Str and Dex add any offensive ability to Melee

BlackSheep wrote:We still have the curious case of launcher damage.

my understanding is that a rehaul of the entire way launchers work is planned eventually which is why I didn't mention it. Launcher dependence on str seems ok to me ... if anything str is too good for launchers, certainly not too weak.

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Post Wednesday, 3rd July 2013, 15:05

Re: Why don't Str and Dex add any offensive ability to Melee

Can't we have it like normal games where strength adds to damage and ability to carry, dex adds to accuracy and int to magic power?

I mean, I know it's kinda like that, but couldn't it be ACTUALLY LIKE THAT?!?
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Post Wednesday, 3rd July 2013, 15:54

Re: Why don't Str and Dex add any offensive ability to Melee

IIRC, the reason that would be disadvantageous is damage is so heavily based on weapon base damage, Dex would still always be the answer, plus dex based races would become much weaker early and much stronger late.
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Post Thursday, 4th July 2013, 13:36

Re: Why don't Str and Dex add any offensive ability to Melee

Well, and I don't mean this facetiously, other games seem to manage it ok? I mean wouldn't it be easier to adjust weapons to suit a new system?

As I see it, the stats (other than int) are by far the most confusing thing about crawl and surely weapons/stats could be scaled to give the following outcomes, without making anything more complicated:

- You can't hit often enough = choose dex
- You can't hit hard enough = choose strength
- You want more magic skill = choose int

Weapon skills add a bit of damage and to-hit on top. This is how other games work, and it's a system that works well and makes sense (plus it's easy for new players to grasp). I know it 'sort of works like that', and as I said I'm not trying to be facetious or anything, but I just can't see why it can't work like that in practise?
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Post Thursday, 4th July 2013, 14:35

Re: Why don't Str and Dex add any offensive ability to Melee

I don't know how to make it work, but I'd love to see a system where character size, dex v str, and fighting v weapon skill worked to make it so every weapon was either a starter weapon or the best weapon class in the game for some build.

So maybe for large characters whose strength is larger than dex and weapon skill is higher than fighting, the great sword does more damage than the triple sword. But for large characters whose str>Dex and long blades < fighting, the triple sword is better. For small characters, the long sword is better than the double sword. The falchion is what you are using when you haven't found the right weapon yet.

I'd just like to see "I'm using a morningstar instead of a flail because of how I built my character" instead of "I'm using a morningstar instead of a flail because morningstars are better than flails for everyone."

Changing the way stats contribute to weapon damage could be a part of moving to this kind of system.

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Post Thursday, 4th July 2013, 15:17

Re: Why don't Str and Dex add any offensive ability to Melee

On the contrary, I'd like to see a system where stats and race has no or little effect on weapon/armour choice. Deciding which weapon/armour to train or to use is an interesting deceision. It's the most interesting on humans. While certain perks makes other races intersting as well, railroading Ogres into using giant spiked clubs or preventing some starting combinations to use plate mail is not amongst these.
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Post Thursday, 4th July 2013, 17:57

Re: Why don't Str and Dex add any offensive ability to Melee

Currently I've been rolling very high str characters (we're talking pure str OgFi/TrTm of Chei levels of str, which is >50) and I found myself being quite the powerhouse, even though admittedly I've been using statue form on both of those.
(Both characters took down TRJ in three hits in statue form, with a GSC of flaming and claws respectively)

So it seems like the newly doubled effect of stats seems to make extreme amounts of str be quite substantial. Though whether it is on normal characters (who are more in the 16-27-ish range) is a good question.

(As a funny side note, unless the math is complete bollocks then Chei actually offers a +34% increase in weapon base damage at maxed piety.)
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Post Thursday, 4th July 2013, 20:20

Re: Why don't Str and Dex add any offensive ability to Melee

I get 38.4% (39+15)/39 = 1.384
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Post Friday, 5th July 2013, 03:12

Re: Why don't Str and Dex add any offensive ability to Melee

From what I can tell, the following are the potential attacker-based factors affecting a given melee attack:

Melee Weapons have:

1) Base Accuracy Factor
2) Base Damage
3) Base Attack Speed
4) Accuracy Slaying Enhancement (-9 to + 9, not counting artefacts)
5) Damage Slaying Enhancement (-9 to + 9, not counting artefacts)
6) Inherent Weapon Specialties (stabbing enhancement, armour-ignoring, reaching, cleaving)
7) Brand
8) Weapon Manufacturer Race

Players have
1) Strength
2) Dexterity
3) Slaying Enhancements
4) Fighting Skill
5) Weapon-Specific Skill
6) Stabbing Skill
7) Armour Penalties
8) Shield Penalties
9) Player Race (only if it coincides with Weapon Manufacturer Race)
Last edited by XuaXua on Friday, 5th July 2013, 22:13, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Friday, 5th July 2013, 14:41

Re: Why don't Str and Dex add any offensive ability to Melee

This might be a crazy idea, and added hidden complexity to the game which is probably the biggest taboo in crawl design, but what if enchant weapon scrolls were removed entirely and instead the more you used a specific weapon, the more skilled you get with it which is reflected in an innate +x/+x. So, weapon skill would let you use a class of weapons well, but if you decided you want your character to be the master of morningstars, the more you used them the better they'd get. It could be staggered as well- I could see morningstars leaning towards +0, +x while flails lean towards +x, +0 for instance.
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Post Friday, 5th July 2013, 16:11

Re: Why don't Str and Dex add any offensive ability to Melee

Player and weapon race could be added to XuaXua's list.
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Post Sunday, 7th July 2013, 03:41

Re: Why don't Str and Dex add any offensive ability to Melee

My PC just died trying to install GIT.

Anyone willing to supply the trunk formulas to describe how the following are calculated:

Weapon Speed
Attack Chance to Hit
Damage
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Post Sunday, 7th July 2013, 05:52

Re: Why don't Str and Dex add any offensive ability to Melee

Weapon speed formula hasn't changed (yet?)

It's still (base speed -(weapon skill/2)) Min 1/2 the base speed (or 7 if thats > than 7 or 5 if it's a short blade and 1/2 the base speed is >5)

Damage is:
Base weapon damage *
(d(weighted_average_of(Str&Dex)-10)+39)/39 * (Weighted average that is rolled against is *2 if positive,*3 if negative)
(d(Fighting)+30)/30) *
(d(weaponSkill)+25)/25
+ d(slaying bonus) + d(weapon damage bonus)

To Hit:
15+
weighted_average_of(Dex&Str)/2+
d(fighting)+
d(WeaponSkill)+
weapon attack bonus+
weapon to hit skill bonus+
slaying to hit bonus

There's a bunch of miscellaneous stuff I skipped (Like racial bonuses eyeball mutations etc.)

Chance to hit is opposed by target's EV and of course damage is reduced by AC
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Post Sunday, 7th July 2013, 06:14

Re: Why don't Str and Dex add any offensive ability to Melee

XuaXua wrote:My PC just died trying to install GIT.

Anyone willing to supply the trunk formulas to describe how the following are calculated:

Weapon Speed
Attack Chance to Hit
Damage
If you're trying to source dive using the online repositories are better. The Cheibriados clone even let's you search the entire source, which is great when you're trying to find where a function is. (There's probably some specialized application I don't know about which does an even better job, if anybody knows of one please post it or PM me.)
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Post Sunday, 7th July 2013, 07:25

Re: Why don't Str and Dex add any offensive ability to Melee

reaver wrote:
XuaXua wrote:My PC just died trying to install GIT.

Anyone willing to supply the trunk formulas to describe how the following are calculated:

Weapon Speed
Attack Chance to Hit
Damage
If you're trying to source dive using the online repositories are better. The Cheibriados clone even let's you search the entire source, which is great when you're trying to find where a function is. (There's probably some specialized application I don't know about which does an even better job, if anybody knows of one please post it or PM me.)


Perhaps you mean ack? It's certainly my tool of choice.

Also if it's just a one-time thing, it's better to download a tarball of the latest trunk. It's under 11mb and there's no need to have git installed. If you look at http://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/trees/master , you can see the button for it, 'download master as tar.gz', in the sidebar. You really only need git if you actually want to -keep up- with developments in trunk. Otherwise It's easier on both you and gitorious to go for the tar.gz option.

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Post Thursday, 11th July 2013, 11:16

Re: Why don't Str and Dex add any offensive ability to Melee

A lot of rpg´s have stats that have different effects depending on what class you play.
As an example Fighters could have better Damage with Str on 1h, Barbs better damage with Str on 2h weapon, Assassins have better Stab with Dex, Hunters more damage with ranged weapon, Fire elementalists better Fire damage with Int, Enchanters better power on hex spells with Int etc.

But maybe this and similar ideas has already been discussed and dissed (i.e. to much work, to little gain) & if so feel free to disregard the above.

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Post Thursday, 11th July 2013, 11:21

Re: Why don't Str and Dex add any offensive ability to Melee

graffen69 wrote:A lot of rpg´s have stats that have different effects depending on what class you play.


Crawl isn't an RPG and its classes are intentionally "starting kits" that do not have such significant effects later on in the game.

Yes, this has been discussed before ;)

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Post Thursday, 11th July 2013, 23:04

Re: Why don't Str and Dex add any offensive ability to Melee

mumra wrote:
graffen69 wrote:A lot of rpg´s have stats that have different effects depending on what class you play.


Crawl isn't an RPG and its classes are intentionally "starting kits" that do not have such significant effects later on in the game.

Yes, this has been discussed before ;)

Whops, sorry. Point taken. :oops:

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