Why a Background (Class) System?

[xzanthius]

I am curious to know why developers went for a system of Backgrounds as opposed to manually choosing one's skills and buying one's initial equipment? There already is an innate system of checks and balances in the various races' aptitudes and frankly low powered equipment (basic) is too weak to off set the balance of the game except let beginning players see further than level 7.

I dislike starting with skills (ie. stealth) when I don't perceive the need or logic behind them. Likewise I often wish that my stealthy Octopode stabber/sling shot user could have had the good sense to buy a buckler before throwing itself into the dungeon.

I feel much the same way about having vital stats (Strength, Intelligence, Agility) set at the beginning of the game.

Sometimes I feel like we just all just 'Wandered' into the dungeon and our hundreds of previous incarnations (experience and style) matter little.

Of course I know that there were good reasons to design the game this way. I just don't know what they are right now.

[Bim]

There was some talk at one point about having a point based system to buy items and skills, but it was felt that it would be impossible to balance it well enough. I'm not quite sure why this was the case, but I think it was because there are something's you'd always want to choose over others, and that part of the class system is to balance other parts of the class system (so you get lower skills with good equipment or something)

Would be interested to hear the official reasoning though.

[reaver]

There are several reasons that a point buy system would be inferior to the current class system:

Classes help introduce players to new playstyles. I know I wouldn't have thought of stabbing with Hexes without Enchanters.

It would be a nightmare to balance. Just as an example, would you charge more or less for more levels of the same skill?

Eventually the best players would come up with near-optimal characters. Knowing these point buys would be a spoiler.

Point Buy would break the flow when you die. The Devs consider four choices during charcter creation too much.
This would be ~20.

It should be noted that character classes have been around since the start of Crawl- as in 1997, closed source, just Linley Henzell working on the game. The current devs had no part in it.

There is one similar proposal that had a bit of momentum a few years ago that I liked. It's died out now, but I think it's neat.

[crate]

because you can start a game by pressing 2 letters

[mumra]

As crate has pointed out, simplicity of starting a new game is the reason why this system won't ever get changed. But historically it has always existed and in fact (probably) stems from the Nethack ancestry (one of the things Nethack definitely got right). I tried ToME for example, and was massively put off after my first game by the plethora of dialogues I had to slog through just to get into the game.

The system has changed a little over the last several versions, in the direction of greater simplicity - for instance removing starting book choices.

The idea of having a single customisable background is kind of interesting but hard to implement.

[XuaXua]

Templates are much easier to use and they fall back to the traditional pen-and-paper RPG systems of yore. It's faster to introduce new players to the game with recommended starting packs than have them sit through a bunch of mechanics.

The best example of this is to look at a overly-complicated point-based pen-and-paper system (for example, Mutants & Masterminds or GURPS) which also offers starting character templates, and time how quickly someone without superior intricate knowledge of the system can pick as close to what they want as possible and get going.

That having been said, the more mature the player is with the system, the more leeway they can be afforded to customize their character and likely the more variation they'd want to try it differently (hence the style variants on newer species).

[xzanthius]

I have been informed.

A little mess at the beginning makes for a more optimal game overall + unchangeable = forget about it.

[Azrael]

Why not just keep the current system, but add a new "class", similar to Wanderer, that allows you to point-buy? That way everyone gets what they want.
Crawl isn't a multiplayer game, and not every combo has to be balanced in relation to every other one. It's okay if some people prefer playing with point buy and pick a "class" that's a little over or under powered.

[giygas]

I wouldn't mind an additional class called "custom" or something more flavorful that let you edit everything. I don't thikn it's too likely to happen, though.

What I really want, and what I consider a flaw in the background system, is that it's surprising hard to start an unarmed character. I think only monks and transmuters can start with unarmed. Certain races, basically those with claws, also get the option to start with it on fighter/gladiator backgrounds. I want all races to be allowed to choose unarmed on any background that allows weapon choice. I'd love to play an unarmed fighter with most classes because that way I could start with a shield. That's probably the closest to being logical, but being the diehard unarmed fool that I am, I'd probably also do weird things like playing unarmed skalds, giving up the brand spells just to get regeneration and shroud.

It can be grayed out as an inferior choice, just let it be there.

i think this is ok. MfFE or DDAE are hard to start too.

I'd go for the Custom class. In fact, it could replace wanderer: you get to choose what you start with, with some randomness or limitation.

[snow]

Having a custom background doesn't really work for online play.

[mumra]

I'd go for the Custom class. In fact, it could replace wanderer: you get to choose what you start with, with some randomness or limitation.

Wanderers are great; let's not get rid of them for no reason.

These custom class/race ideas are kind of interesting. But Crawl already has a "custom class" system, and it has a really cool interface, i.e. playing the game. If there is some kind of niche or playstyle that's fun and interesting that the game doesn't support then the correct approach is to design a new race/background/god/item/spell/whatever to enable that playstyle.

[SirDinkus]

I love the current system. I really hope that more races and classes are added in the future though. I wonder if the Devs plan on adding things as big as new classes or races? As well as....more of everything really. There isn't really any limit to how many items/artifacts/enemies can be added to something like this. Only the question of how to make them balanced. It just keeps getting bigger.

I really hope they keep the current formula and just keep adding content.

[SirDinkus]

Actually now that I think about it, instead of adding completely new races, why not add subdivisions of already existing races? Small tweaks like an added strength and weakness. Sort of picking a tribe or clan or whatever that your race comes from. It would add a bit more depth in the choice department without bogging down the start with endless menus.

[mumra]

I wonder if the Devs plan on adding things as big as new classes or races?

Have you seen trunk lately?

As well as....more of everything really. There isn't really any limit to how many items/artifacts/enemies can be added to something like this.

Really ... have you seen trunk at all ever?

Actually now that I think about it, instead of adding completely new races, why not add subdivisions of already existing races? Small tweaks like an added strength and weakness. Sort of picking a tribe or clan or whatever that your race comes from. It would add a bit more depth in the choice department without bogging down the start with endless menus.

It's better for each race to be a very distinct choice, otherwise not very much choice is added, but the new game process is made more complicated. Currently it's very streamlined and in fact several old subdivisions have been removed (several types of elf, mountain dwarves...) Lava Orcs are an exception right now but they're extremely different to Hill Orcs and in some people's view shouldn't actually be called orcs...

[TeshiAlair]

@SirDinkus- since you see like a newer member of the forum, first of all, welcome!

Secondly, you can find the latest builds here: http://crawl.develz.org/trunk/ or access them by playing online. There you can try out the new races, test out tweaks to the classes, and play with the new items.