Do the Trunk Races really fit within Crawl?

[Xion350]

I don't know they just feel SO 'off' to me. They introduce so many new unique mechanics that you have to either read up on to fully understand how to use them or die several times in a row trying to figure out how it works.

If all the races had something highly unique about them like Dijinni or Lava Orcs I wouldn't be saying anything.

[pubby]

No, they don't really fit, but then again Fe, DD, and Mu don't really either. It's not so much the required reading as it is their failed gimmicks.

I'm happy to have them in trunk for testing, but I think it would be a mistake to include them as-is into 0.13. I'm optimistic that Gargoyles and Lava Orcs can be improved though.

[Marbit]

They are in trunk for testing and to polish the details that doesnt make them fit.
Not everything that goes into trunk makes it to a stable release.

[roctavian]

I would disagree with the notion that you have to "read up on to fully understand how to use them or die several times in a row trying to figure out how it works." They're different but not especially complex for players to use.

I know you've pre-loaded this comment with "fully understand" but the same thing goes for countless features in Crawl. I think one of the nice things about the new species is that they aren't too complicated to deal with for players. I do think that from a design standpoint, LO and Dj are kind of "busy" with a lot going on, and this doesn't even begin to deal with the issue of balance.

Crawl's tone feels a lot more experimental/open these days, with as many new spells and races and features as are being added, but the devs continue to tweak and work with these, and I think they'll solidify into something really awesome over time.

[TeshiAlair]

Honestly, back in the day I thought Vampires were an insane addition. But over time, crawl has become a lot more varied without becoming more variable in the random sense, which I thoroughly love. Every addition to the game in my memory has been a beneficial one, even the removal of Mountain Dwarves which really pissed me off at the time.

That being said, Lava Orcs I think are a bit weak flavor-wise because Lava Orcs aren't really a thing nor do they really make sense as they don't have anything orc-like about them. Magma Golem would be more suitable IMO. I also hate the idea of Djinn from a gameplay viewpoint and think they will never truly be balanced, but that's just me being cranky.

I really feel the world of crawl is expanding and taking on its own personality, and becoming a lot more playful and interesting. Octopodes are becoming my favorite race to splat in the game, and I love the shoals and all the new portal vaults. Sure, its getting weirder, but it's a good kind of weird.

PS- I LOVE Gargoyles. I will never ever ever play a Felid.

[mumra]

They introduce so many new unique mechanics that you have to either read up on to fully understand how to use them or die several times in a row trying to figure out how it works.

Remember the first time you played Crawl? Wasn't everything like this back then? That's right, new things might kill you, until you've figured them out or read spoilers. I don't see how this doesn't fit...

[battaile]

As long as the new mechanics aren't introducing so many bugs that it degrades the rest of the crawl experience, I can't see how they can possibly be anything but a net gain. (or at worst a net neutral, where you simply don't play them)

[XuaXua]

I do think the Djinn documentation on what the magic contamination meter is all about is completely lacking, but otherwise these species are intended to provide new and different (unique) ways to play Dungeon Crawl.

[jejorda2]

I'd venture to say that many of the existing races are too similar, in that they only differ by aptitudes. When crawl progresses to the point where all the races have mechanics that cause players to use different play styles, these races will make more sense. I'm not sure these particular mechanics are the ones to go with, but I like the movement away from high elves and halflings that are just humans that are nudged away from some weapon classes and spell schools.

[Igxfl]

Well, keep in mind small size changes a lot for Halflings, but I agree for High Elves.

[Bim]

I think gargoyles fit (or will fit eventually), but I'm undecided on LO and Djinn. Lava Orc is an extremely weird flavour, and their mechanic seems unavoidably gamey and odd - but I'm sure I could be convinced. As has been mentioned Djinn seem as though they'll never reach a good balance (although their flavour is better) and they seem to be more of a reduction in ability than anything else.

Regardless, I do think crawl needs to take more risks developmental wise, as (up until this release) it's gone pretty slowly about adding new things in and part of the fun of roguelikes is in the massive variety.

[mumra]

High Elves' long blades apt does at least give them something of a niche, but I'd be in favour of reflavouring them as something more unique. However with the amount of species and background changes going on in trunk at the moment the priority is certainly getting all the existing stuff balanced and polished. I don't think anyone would claim that the new races are release-worthy at present, but then 0.12 only just went out the door and we're in a slightly experimental phase...

[tasonir]

I for one love all 3 of the new races. Gargoyles are the closest to my heart just because they fit my playstyle, I love earth, especially as support for melee. But Djinni mechanics are interesting, if somewhat abusable. Lava orcs are likewise interesting, although I think they need to be renamed to something other than orcs. I had one doing pretty well until I realized having high heat suddenly melts statue form and it was too late to recover.

I do feel that aptitudes, hp/mana gains, exp gains, size and magic resistance per level are enough to deeply differentiate races. But more exotic races are welcome to. Really there's room for there to be 50 races in crawl. The race selection menu may be a bit more intimidating, but that isn't that much of a barrier. Newbies can always be given recommended combos. If we really had 50+ races I could see working out a system to categorize them into sections, but that's not needed now or in the near future.

[Bim]

I have to agree that as a non-Multiplayer game, I feel that more is better (as long as it's not broken or hideously unbalanced) as far as races go. There have been some good proposals/patches that have fallen by the way side over the years and I'd much prefer to see a few slightly less polished 'exotic' races than just the same vanilla ones due to fear that they might be not quite right.

[Davion Fuxa]

High Elves' long blades apt does at least give them something of a niche, but I'd be in favour of reflavouring them as something more unique. However with the amount of species and background changes going on in trunk at the moment the priority is certainly getting all the existing stuff balanced and polished. I don't think anyone would claim that the new races are release-worthy at present, but then 0.12 only just went out the door and we're in a slightly experimental phase...

I actually liked High Elves more for the high Stats they get more then anything else - plus coupling the fact that they are 'Elves' and benefit from Elven Racial Armour can make them a lot of fun to play with as a Hybrid where Deep Elves and Sludge Elves never really could do the same. Out of all my wins, High Elf comes off as one of the few species I actually enjoyed playing and might go back to play again for another character; the other species I have won with don't have that sort of feeling for replay-ability.

[prozacelf]

I would rather see too much stuff put into trunk and then taken out or adjusted later than to be too timid on adding things personally. And we all look forward to your wacky change. s to evoking mumra

[Azrael]

Djinn are my favorite race right now (though I agree that they need a bit of reworking).
The dilemma of having to choose between spells and hp is an interesting one.

[giygas]

I like Gargoyles and Djinni, but I hate Lava Orcs. They really are too overpowered. I mean, free haste when you're running from something dangerous -- WTF??

[WalkerBoh]

I agree with the sentiment that Lava Orc doesn't really make sense being an orc. If they're an orc, they should be allowed to worship Beogh in my opinion. In general I think the idea behind Lava Orc is really interesting, and they're quite fun to play. It'd be an improvement if temperature were either not tied to tension, or tension were improved to make temperature less game-able, but overall I like the direction.

As for things not "fitting within crawl", I don't think that's really a huge concern. We have playable sentient housecats, after all.

[EvilAshe]

As for things not "fitting within crawl", I don't think that's really a huge concern. We have playable sentient housecats, after all.

I don't think comparing anything to the awful Felids does it any favours...

[Griever7x]

The sentiment you describe of the new races being off to you is the same for me in regards of felids and especially, octopodes.
It's been awhile since they have been introduced, and I still never ever play octopodes... I mean... what the heck?? Who would want to be a sentient octopus?
I like felids better, they atleast make more sense, but with the 2 aforementioned races having such a nice play with transmutations, I would not really like any newly introduced species to work well with transmutations, so yeah, as long as these races are fairly unique and their flavour is cool and works well, I'd say why not.

Although I must say I'd appreciate much more a new background, instead

[tasonir]

Octopodes don't play well with transmutations! Source: 187 of them splatted. For contrast it only took me 23 total felids, and 17 of them monk, before I won FeMo Alright, alright - octopode transmuters being hard doesn't mean they don't mesh well with the background, but still, most new races are supposed to be generalists in terms of aptitudes and have some sort of gimmick that sets them apart.

[Bloax]

Transmuteres have a very rough start, octopodes have a very rough start. Stir and shake - and you're in for a grind.

[Volteccer_Jack]

Transmuteres have a very rough start

Compared to what? Tab your way to XL2, memorize Sticks to Snakes, spam that against anything tough, memorize Spider Form, then you're home free.

I don't think anyone would claim that the new races are release-worthy at present

Gr is at present (certainly moreso than DD and Fe). Dj will never be.

[dpeg]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I find it funny how some people state that species like DD or Op "don't fit within Crawl" as a matter of fact.

[savageorange]

I agree that Dj is practically impossible to balance. I hope that the hunger cost->contam idea is preserved in Crawl somehow, though, because it's fun to negotiate that balance, unlike the food clock.

[Bim]

After playing the new races pretty much exclusively, I have to say that Gargoyles seem pretty good - they're different, fit into a niche that isn't filled - whilst not being too strange mechanically. I'd be annoyed if they were taken out - I've been wanting to play a heavy armour caster for a long time, and they fit it with the good balance of low hp.

LO may be a bit too strong, but I do think Djinn are maybe a bit too off currently.

All this to say - please don't get rid of Gargoyles!

[rosstin]

We need an Elephant race.

[Klown]

The LO is confusing when you read how it works. The Dj's essence is neat. Ga seems solid, pun intended.

[Grimm]

We need an Elephant race.

Ganeshotaurs

Lava Orcs should be Magmoids

[Volteccer_Jack]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I find it funny how some people state that species like DD or Op "don't fit within Crawl" as a matter of fact.

Well, DD fit thematically, but in a mechanical sense they are poorly fitted to the game (just to take an obvious example, it is completely idiotic that they are allowed to worship Makhleb).

I agree that Dj is practically impossible to balance.

Balance isn't even my concern (though currently, they're balanced atrociously). Djinni is not so much a race as it is a bunch of stupid, broken gimmicks which belong on the won't-do-list that have been glued together into one playable...thing...and shoved into trunk with absolutely no thought whatsoever given to balance or interesting decisions or preventing tedium or even basic mechanical soundness. They fundamentally don't work. You could fix all the balance problems (like 1 mp = 2 ep, which I will charitably assume was a practical joke) and you'd still have a patchwork monstrosity of a race that has no cohesion in either mechanics or flavour, let alone cohesion between the two. And even after 'balancing' Dj within itself, the race would still be horribly broken and unbalanced within the context of the other races (although if DD and Fe are any indication, the devs don't care about that at all).

[Grimm]

Let's keep the tone civil. Volteccer_Jack I've pm'ed you.

[Galefury]

AFAIK part of the goal for Dj was to try out a bunch of race mechanics that have been suggested in the past and see if they work. They seem like a bunch of weird mechanics mashed together because they are. Detailed feedback about what about Dj works and what doesn't might be useful. Preferably in ##crawl-dev or on the wiki so kilobyte actually sees it.

[Mankeli]

A bit of thread-o-mancy but the idea of the thread is still valid.

Gargoyle impressions:

Strength: I've had great time with these guys. Currently rolling one bladehand buffer in zigs and a spelless heavy armoured one clearing Hells. Gargoyles certainly feel very strong although at times you do feel the -2 HP aptitude.

Desing: An important thing gargoyle has going for them is that playing one reduces the need to do some things I find tedious in Crawl quite a bit. Poison immunity means a lot less "fiving" after very early game adder fights or in snake pits / spider. Sustenance means less time hacking corpses. rRot means you don't have to bother with that big curing potion stack for tomb, tartaturs or zot (for death drake summons) which means less inventory hazzle and travelling between levels. The same thing goes for resistance potions in case of Nikola or electric golem because they have rElec (of course there are other reasons to carry them as well). Low HP but high AC means that you should either be tanking through the hit with that huge AC or blocking or evading completely (because you can't rely on taking much hits on your HP) . This leads to less "fiving" as well compared to, say, ogre. Also they have torment resistance (and flaying immunity) which helps with the extented mechanic I don't like much, torment.

Overall: I like gargoyles quite a bit. In short, they feel very strong and, to a great extent, hazzle-free compared to many other races IMO.

[KennySheep]

Gargoyle impressions: They have wings, how the hell am I putting on armor? Draconians just have little vestigial stubs and they can't even put on a robe. Someone nerf gargoyle's tile.

[Bloax]

Naaah, they're fine. Draconians can go cry us a river. :v

[graffen69]

Shouldn´t LO´s be able to retrieve weapons from opponents in lava wielding such when they die?

[Galefury]

Lava does the same thing to items that it does to terminators.

[Confidence Interval]

Lava does the same thing to items that it does to terminators.

It triggers an inferior sequel?

[JARG]

Would just like to add that personally, the new races have reinvigorated interest in crawl for me. And I got another friend to try it out based on what I was telling him about djinni. Exciting new races are perhaps one of the nicest additions that can be made imo. My opinion: lava orcs are kinda busy, but still fun.