Feedback About Version 0.12


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Crypt Cleanser

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Post Wednesday, 19th June 2013, 03:35

Feedback About Version 0.12

So I've done one full playthrough to a win in version 0.12 and had a few other plays as well. I figured I'd note a few things concerning the good and bad for the new version in what I felt were 'improvement's or not such much an improvement'. Not sure where the proper forum for Feedback is - but I figure Crazy Yiuf Corner is probably 'not' the proper forum so I'll dump it here in Game Design.

Vaults Branch:
    I felt that the difficulty had been slightly altered for the branch but I have no qualms about the raised difficulty, there are plenty of places to go to get the needed experience to get stronger for it from Lair Branches, Elven Halls, of Deep in the Main Dungeon.
    The shorten about of floors was also a welcome change since there wasn't really enough sub-branches for it, and that's before people start talking about the sub-branches themselves.
    Vault Only Enemies and the floor layouts did well to improve the overall thematic feel and flavor for the branch, they also harmonized well too.
General Verdict for Vaults is it was a major improvement, and easy 4.5/5 and pat on the back to the Developers.

The Abyss:
    New Enemies are interesting and help add to the tense nature of the Abyss, I want to get out and get out now!
    Individual Levels in the Abyss don't feel different enough - you don't notice a tonne of difference between Abyss:2 and Abyss:3 for example
    Having 5 Full Levels tends to add a lot of tedium for players searching for the Rune
    Wretched Stars Mutation Aura should be changed so that once you exit the Abyss you gradually lose the bad Mutation over time - I was not a fan of scumming lone enemies to pick off when my Mutations got really bad exiting the Abyss
General Verdict for Abyss is 3/5 - It's been changed in an interesting direction but it needs some fine tuning.

Tiles Comments:
    Nice Refurbished Icons, the Enemies look a lot nicer the View - love the Deep Troll specialist icons and updated Ancient Lich.
    Love seeing the branded weapons sort of showing up somewhat and making it easier to identify who might be dangerous. Doesn't always stand out but its definitely an improvement for Tiles.
    I felt that the Status Ailment Icons were a plus but sort of difficult to understand what they meant.
    Looking for items lying underneath stuff was painful - the question mark did a far better job since it was more visible.
    Certain Enemies like Hell Hounds, Orbs of Fire, Lorocyprocas were made fairly dark to the point that it was hard to notice them. Adjusting Brightness/Constrast was necessary, but it should be noted that a side effect of this was that Shoals became painful to view.
General Verdict for Tiles is 3/5 - Mostly the major failing here is that there is a lot of information going on in the tiles but it is hard to understand what's being presented unless you hover over the Tile to understand the effects - and that's assuming you recognize the information, having to concentrate on specific mushrooms to see if three little lines are in the bottom left corner before moving on is tedious; it pretty well made me opt to just remove all plant-life from Lair floors in case items were lying underneath. Tile design was a bit of a minor annoyance but adjusting contrast and brightness worked well.

Misc Comments:
    I got turned into a Tree! Polymorph Wands are no longer irritating and made enjoyable.
    Lamia felt a little lacklustre but proved to be decent enough to waste consumables when met, Jorgunn feels a little bit spoilery and either comes off as laughably easy or ungodly terrifying depending on character and player knowledge.
    Boots of Flight and Ring of Flight are really nice improvements.
    I think I can add to the choir in regards to being happy that Evaporate and Fulsome Distillation disappearing.
    Enjoyed how Summons no longer attacked off screen but Undead have no problem - but Summoning still has spells that are far too powerful, Shadow Creatures for example in MuNe YouTube Run
    Playing in the Shoals recently, I felt the crutch of decision making bringing food in when I met a Harpy pack - gives Gourmand a bit of a desire boost or makes you want to reduce the food carried
General Verdict for Misc Stuff - Truly it is the little things that Matter in Life, 5/5 and total respect for the Developers

Translocation Spell Comments:
    Teleport Other is significantly made more useful in the new version of the game - the new Vault Enemies are awesome targets for example to use it on
    Dispersal is much more useful now, and the Guarenteed Blink on Teleport fail helps justify spending 6 MP
    Disjunction is interesting but seems just a bit too costly, too difficult to cast, and too situational in use. It was fun but outweighed by other Translocations spells
General Verdict for Spell Additions and Adjustments is 4/5 - This does well to shore up the usefulness of the Translocation school someone and gives players a bit more diversity in how they may decide to approach the game

Overall I liked what the developers did in this version - minus changes to the Abyss to include the 5 levels. In regards to Tile Design I'm obviously not as impressed as with the coding. Keep up the good job; I'll probably update this a bit more as I play through a few more times to experience the rest of the content or to get a better idea on what I have already experienced.
Last edited by Davion Fuxa on Tuesday, 25th June 2013, 23:34, edited 4 times in total.
A Google Doc I wrote up in regards to making a new 'workable' definition for the Roguelike Genre:
Defining the Roguelike Genre

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Lokkij

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Post Wednesday, 19th June 2013, 06:16

Re: Feedback About Version 0.12

I've only been playing since 0.10, but when I think about just how much better the game has gotten from 0.10 to 0.12, it is truly impressive. I think 0.12 was leaps and bounds better than 0.11 - the changes to Vaults in particular were astoundingly good.

And then looking forward, it seems that 0.13 is well on its way to being another great improvement on 0.12. There's a lot of potential with Crypt/Forest, the elemental evokers, nausea removal(whooo!!!!), not to even mention the three new species. Major props to the devs for their hard work, and to the people in the community who have contributed. (sorry for the minor derail)

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crate, Wahaha

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Post Wednesday, 19th June 2013, 14:33

Re: Feedback About Version 0.12

WalkerBoh wrote:Devs are doin' good work.


Agreed. It seems like there's way more "where my mountain dwarves at" posts than congratulations posts, but the game really has gotten much better with each successive version. Thanks, devs!

Vestibule Violator

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Post Wednesday, 19th June 2013, 14:48

Re: Feedback About Version 0.12

DavionFuxa if you haven't played with the new Cj spells, you're missing out. Start any decent Cj and go to town - they now have a great starting book.
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Dungeon Master

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Post Wednesday, 19th June 2013, 15:23

Re: Feedback About Version 0.12

Davion Fuxa wrote:Orbs of Fire are too dark

Image


Sorry you weren't impressed.
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Dungeon Master

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Post Wednesday, 19th June 2013, 15:51

Re: Feedback About Version 0.12

Davion Fuxa wrote:I figured I'd note a few things concerning the good and bad for the new version in what I felt were 'improvement's or not such much an improvement'. Not sure where the proper forum for Feedback is - but I figure Crazy Yiuf Corner is probably 'not' the proper forum so I'll dump it here in Game Design.
I don't think you're suppose to do this. I assumed this thread would get locked as soon as a mod saw it- like this one or this one.
Davion Fuxa wrote:Lamia felt a little lacklustre
:lol:
You know Lamia is the 3rd most deadly unique, right? She has a killratio of over 15%. She's just behind Sigmund and Grinder is deadliness, and is the only one in the top 20 or so to appear after the Lair. (There's a spreadsheet that I can't find right now.)
Edit: made my post a bit less aggressive.
Last edited by reaver on Wednesday, 19th June 2013, 16:31, edited 1 time in total.
On IRC my nick is reaverb. I play online under the name reaver, though.

cjo

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Post Wednesday, 19th June 2013, 16:12

Re: Feedback About Version 0.12

I've been getting a kick out of the new tiles, and I LOVE the new vaults. Vaults really feels like a set of vaults now, with an interesting mix of guard-type people. Even the ugly* feel like they're there for a reason, like maybe they're pets or "guard dog" critters. (That's projection on my part, of course.) And the new layout is great in terms of being different than the main dungeon.

So yeah, thanks devs :)

*edit: ugly things! D'oh!
Last edited by cjo on Wednesday, 19th June 2013, 16:39, edited 1 time in total.

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mumra

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Post Wednesday, 19th June 2013, 16:14

Re: Feedback About Version 0.12

reaver wrote:The answer is nowhere. I don't think you're suppose to do this. I assumed this thread would get locked as soon as a mod saw it- like this one or this one.


It would be better if it was moved to a correct place, and the Report button is there if you see a thread in the wrong place.

However I would say that GDD probably is the most appropriate place for a post like this, but perhaps we need a new board specifically for feedback about the game.

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reaver
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Post Wednesday, 19th June 2013, 16:35

Re: Feedback About Version 0.12

mumra wrote:However I would say that GDD probably is the most appropriate place for a post like this, but perhaps we need a new board specifically for feedback about the game.
I also think that GDD is the best place for it, but in the past threads like this have been removed. A new board for feedback sounds interesting, although it might not have much content.
On IRC my nick is reaverb. I play online under the name reaver, though.
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Barkeep

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Post Wednesday, 19th June 2013, 17:59

Re: Feedback About Version 0.12

The main reason I'd lock a thread like this is it violates the "one topic per thread" guideline pretty egregiously. (Which actually isn't explicitly listed in the "You must read this" thread, but should be.)

So: the proper place for balance and fun-related feedback is here, but not in a difficult-to-follow megathread.
I am not a very good player. My mouth is a foul pit of LIES. KNOW THIS.

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reaver

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Post Wednesday, 19th June 2013, 18:41

Re: Feedback About Version 0.12

njvack wrote:The main reason I'd lock a thread like this is it violates the "one topic per thread" guideline pretty egregiously. (Which actually isn't explicitly listed in the "You must read this" thread, but should be.)

So: the proper place for balance and fun-related feedback is here, but not in a difficult-to-follow megathread.


However: I think it's valid and useful for someone to write a long post with feedback on many features from over the course of one or several playthroughs. He could have spammed the forum with a dozen different posts about the various topics but in this case it does make sense to provide a playtest summary. I would still suggest a new board for this kind of thing. There are some posts in General / CYC sometimes that are of this nature but easily missed by devs who don't follow those forums regularly.
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Barkeep

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Post Wednesday, 19th June 2013, 19:06

Re: Feedback About Version 0.12

Honestly, if you're happy with it, I'm happy with it :)
I am not a very good player. My mouth is a foul pit of LIES. KNOW THIS.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 19th June 2013, 19:51

Re: Feedback About Version 0.12

reaver wrote:
Davion Fuxa wrote:Lamia felt a little lacklustre
:lol:
You know Lamia is the 3rd most deadly unique, right? She has a killratio of over 15%. She's just behind Sigmund and Grinder is deadliness, and is the only one in the top 20 or so to appear after the Lair. (There's a spreadsheet that I can't find right now.)


I had a rather embarassing quick death to Lamia early on (it may not have been the first time I saw her, but first or second probably). My current character who's finished snake pit worships trog, saw her, and I just said "I'm not getting near her again!" I think I summoned 3 maybe 4 brothers, and just walked backwards until she was gone. I felt completely okay with this approach, the piety's worth it. She had a bunch of naga mages around, and I want nothing to do with that ;)

The chart you're looking for is probably here: http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/killers.html

She seems to have dropped to 380, but again, for how late in the game she is, that's still a pretty deadly unique. Jory is the example of a unique who doesn't actually kill anyone, supposedly not having killed anyone for 24 months after being added (he currently has 6 kills). I think this is partially due to how rare he appeared though. Maybe the top 20 you saw was uniques only?

edit: the same chart for only the .12 tournament is here: http://dobrazupa.org/tournament/0.12/killers.html She's at 123 here; might be more accurate since the first link includes games from before she existed.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 19th June 2013, 20:12

Re: Feedback About Version 0.12

in fact neither of those are at all what reaver is talking about

  Code:
<Sequell> lamia wins 15.50% of battles.

Crypt Cleanser

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Post Wednesday, 19th June 2013, 20:44

Re: Feedback About Version 0.12

ontoclasm wrote:
Davion Fuxa wrote:Orbs of Fire are too dark

Image


Sorry you weren't impressed.

The very first comment I made about Tiles was "Nice Refurbished Icons, the Enemies look a lot nicer the View".

What I'm getting at is that the new Tiles aren't 'Functionally' working very well in the new released version of the game. If I fail to notice that something is under a Fungus or even a Hellhound 3 Tiles away from my character then it really doesn't matter how good the Tile looks once I do notice the Tile.
A Google Doc I wrote up in regards to making a new 'workable' definition for the Roguelike Genre:
Defining the Roguelike Genre

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Post Wednesday, 19th June 2013, 21:53

Re: Feedback About Version 0.12

Davion Fuxa wrote:
ontoclasm wrote:
Davion Fuxa wrote:Orbs of Fire are too dark

Image


Sorry you weren't impressed.

The very first comment I made about Tiles was "Nice Refurbished Icons, the Enemies look a lot nicer the View".

What I'm getting at is that the new Tiles aren't 'Functionally' working very well in the new released version of the game. If I fail to notice that something is under a Fungus or even a Hellhound 3 Tiles away from my character then it really doesn't matter how good the Tile looks once I do notice the Tile.


Huh? Your comment was that orbs of fire were too dark. As ontoclasm has shown they are barely any darker than the old ones, which were nearly white. How light do you need them? Maybe you need to examine your brightness/contrast settings...

Crypt Cleanser

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Post Wednesday, 19th June 2013, 22:55

Re: Feedback About Version 0.12

I'm not really an expert on colors but the main thing I'm trying to get across here is that the image of some enemies blends in too well due to the dark tones on a dark floor. One of the things about the old tiles is that they were extremely pronounced with their bright tones contrast to the dark floors and did well to get across the type of enemy you were looking at.
A Google Doc I wrote up in regards to making a new 'workable' definition for the Roguelike Genre:
Defining the Roguelike Genre

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Post Wednesday, 19th June 2013, 23:03

Re: Feedback About Version 0.12

Davion Fuxa wrote:I'm not really an expert on colors but the main thing I'm trying to get across here is that the image of some enemies blends in too well due to the dark tones on a dark floor. One of the things about the old tiles is that they were extremely pronounced with their bright tones contrast to the dark floors and did well to get across the type of enemy you were looking at.


This would probably be better illustrated if you showed a screenshot of the monster in question being hard to see over a background tile. There are certainly monsters for which this might be the case but I find it hard to imagine how OoF are one. Colour balancing is easy to do (both making floors darker and enemies brighter) but it's extremely hard to get right in a way that works with all different monitors and brightness settings. Many people swear by console for precisely this reason ;) I'm not one of them but I never have trouble seeing monsters.

Crypt Cleanser

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Post Wednesday, 19th June 2013, 23:35

Re: Feedback About Version 0.12

mumra wrote:
Davion Fuxa wrote:I'm not really an expert on colors but the main thing I'm trying to get across here is that the image of some enemies blends in too well due to the dark tones on a dark floor. One of the things about the old tiles is that they were extremely pronounced with their bright tones contrast to the dark floors and did well to get across the type of enemy you were looking at.


This would probably be better illustrated if you showed a screenshot of the monster in question being hard to see over a background tile. There are certainly monsters for which this might be the case but I find it hard to imagine how OoF are one. Colour balancing is easy to do (both making floors darker and enemies brighter) but it's extremely hard to get right in a way that works with all different monitors and brightness settings. Many people swear by console for precisely this reason ;) I'm not one of them but I never have trouble seeing monsters.


I'll try to that that in subsequent play-throughs.
A Google Doc I wrote up in regards to making a new 'workable' definition for the Roguelike Genre:
Defining the Roguelike Genre

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 19th June 2013, 23:59

Re: Feedback About Version 0.12

crate wrote:in fact neither of those are at all what reaver is talking about

  Code:
<Sequell> lamia wins 15.50% of battles.


Where does that number come from? It's counting games where she's generated, if she kills the player? Does her pack count? I should probably spend more time in IRC, much to the dismay of everyone else in IRC :P

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 20th June 2013, 00:15

Re: Feedback About Version 0.12

So then it is in fact using the killed by data that I linked, it just checks that she was generated first. I'm kind of amazed that she kills just over 1 out of 7 players who finds her, though. If you found her, ran away, and never killed her, how would that be counted?
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Dungeon Master

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Post Thursday, 20th June 2013, 01:52

Re: Feedback About Version 0.12

The kill ratio only counts battles to the death (or pacification or banishment): kills/(kills + killed). Games where the player successfully ran away from the unique (and didn't come back later) don't affect the ratio at all.

Crypt Cleanser

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Post Monday, 24th June 2013, 13:43

Re: Feedback About Version 0.12

Just managed to claim the Abyssal Rune on a character and experience a bit more of the flavor of individual Abyss Enemies.

Generally, the Abyss is still a death trap for weaker 20> players, the portals leading Deeper into the Abyss mean little to them since they can likely not survive deeper treks for long - unless of course they are in a dire situation currently (in which case they dive like usually). For the stronger 20> players you basically just have added tedium - my Deep Dwarf Hunter that I'm running now for example - Deeper Portal, Deeper Portal, Deeper Portal, Deeper Portal, Lightning Spires, Abyssal Rune, Leave Abyss.

All that said though, I sort of like the idea that the Abyss progressed in. One advantage of the deeper portals is that you can't luck into the Rune - so no more 100 Turn Abyssal Rune Grab and out for me. You can also choose how difficult you want the Abyss to be by not going into Deeper Portals.

I suppose if I was to suggest something based on what I've seen - maybe reduce the Abyss to only 3 levels and have the rune appear from the second on.

Outside of the levels, one thing to note is that the Wretched Star is cool - but most likely those Temporary Mutations should go away over time after leaving the Abyss. In the Abyss itself the current system works fine - you kill stuff to repower yourself and stuff is generally popping out of nowhere constantly; it also sort of adds to the playing tension. Outside of the Abyss - let's just say my Deep Dwarf Hunter with Angry 3, Screaming 3, Strength -14, and so forth wasn't so fun; and neither was scumming for significant enough and lone enemies that I would kill to get stronger from.
A Google Doc I wrote up in regards to making a new 'workable' definition for the Roguelike Genre:
Defining the Roguelike Genre

Crypt Cleanser

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Post Tuesday, 25th June 2013, 23:49

Re: Feedback About Version 0.12

Just won with my Deep Dwarf Hunter so a bit more feed back is in order apart from from I said above about the Abyss.

Will note that adjusting the Brightness/Constrast Settings help significantly in viewing enemies that previously I noted as too dark - but had to readjust settings for entry into Shoals because it made it painful to view. However, that's more of a minor annoyance then anything else and isn't really enough to complain about the new well done tiles.

Tested out Teleport Other, Dispersal, and Disjunction throughout the Deep Dwarf Hunter Run. I figured that the school would synergize well with Deep Dwarf Hunter and to some extent it did. Teleport Other proved extremely useful for getting rid of nusiances like the special Vault Enemies, or Deep Trolls with Backgrounds, or whatever have you. Dispersal was excellent for thinning out hordes of enemies into more manageable assortments - or at least bumping them away from your character. The changes to these spells did well to improve them and make them very desirable.

Disjunction proved a bit lacklustre otherwise. It didn't really feel like it lasted long - even when the character was Hasted, and its uses felt extremely situational or handled just as well by the likes of Dispersal or Controlled Blink.
A Google Doc I wrote up in regards to making a new 'workable' definition for the Roguelike Genre:
Defining the Roguelike Genre

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