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New Species Idea: Abarimon

PostPosted: Tuesday, 18th June 2013, 13:38
by FalconNL
I couldn't find this in the list of rejected ideas or in any previous species suggestions, so I hope I haven't overlooked anything.

Species name: Abarimon

Traits
Unaffected by magic
Fast 2
rPois

Description
Although magical aptitude varies from race to race, each creature has at least some ability to use, and be affected by, magic. The Abarimon, however, are entirely unaffected by magic and cannot use any magic themselves. In order to defend themselves, they have to rely on their martial training and high speed.

General
Abarimon are immune to all forms of magic: offensive spells, curses, magical traps and enemy buffs that affect others, such as invisibility. Note that this does not include creatures that are innately invisible, such as Unseen Horrors and Ghost Moths.

They are unable to use any form of magic, including spells and most items. Consequently, they have no MP bar.

Since Abarimon can't use many of the typical methods of escape, such as blink and teleport scrolls, their main method of escape consists of running away, which is made easier by their superior speed. The poison immunity is mainly to make the Snake, Spider and Swamp branches less tedious, since they have no other way of gaining poison immunity.

While the magic immunity makes a lot of monsters easier, Abarimon also have much fewer answers, e.g. no abjuration to deal with summoners and no blink scrolls to make a quick getaway. It therefore becomes even more important than with regular characters to determine when the tide of battle is turning against you and to run away in time. Although the concept will almost certainly have to be tweaked a bit, I hope it's at least interesting and sufficiently different from the existing species to be worthy of some discussion. I look forward to reading your feedback.

Can't use
  • Magical weapon brands
  • Armour egos
  • Jewellery
  • Scrolls
  • Spells
  • Any evokable item save for the Horn of Geryon and reaching weapons, i.e. rods, wands, staves, decks, summoning items, etc.

Unaffected by
  • Curses. They can freely swap out cursed items.
  • Magical traps (Teleport and Zot)

Affected by
  • Weapon and armour plusses and minuses. Since Abarimon can't modify these magically and they can be modified non-magically through corrosion, I'm interpreting these as being particularly well-made rather than having some form of enchantment.
  • Nonmagical weapon brands (reaching, speed, vorpal, penetration)
  • Ammo/needle brands. Here you don't use the magic of the projectile, you simply launch it at the enemy, who is affected by the ammo's enchantment as usual.
  • Potions. Potions are chemical rather than magical.
  • Divine powers (friendly and hostile). While similar in effect, divine powers are not magic.
  • Non-magical traps
  • Breath attacks. Again, chemical rather than magical.
  • Branded melee attacks, e.g. a hit by a fire elemental

Religion
Obviously the magic Gods (Sif Muna, Vehumet and Kikubaaqudgha) have no interest in you and will not accept you as a worshipper. Your inability to use decks means Nemelex Xobeh is similarly uninterested.

Since you are unaffected by curses, you don't gain additional Ashenzari piety when wearing cursed items.

God abilities that require MP can still be used.

Skills
Abarimon are good with all weapons and obviously cannot use any magical skills.

  Code:
Arm  Ddg  Sth  Shd  T&D  Inv  Evo  HP  MP  Exp
0    0    0    0    0    1    NA   0   NA  0

Fgt  SBl  LBl  M&F  Axs  Pla  Stv  UC  Thr  Slg  Bws  Crb
2    2    2    2    2    2    2    2   2    2    2    2

Spc  Coj  Hex  Cha  Sum  Nec  Trl  Trm  Fir  Ice  Air  Ear  Poi
NA   NA   NA   NA   NA   NA   NA   NA   NA   NA   NA   NA   NA


Recommended backgrounds
Warrior, Gladiator, Monk, Hunter, Assassin, Berserker, Abyssal Knight, Chaos Knight, Death Knight, Priest, Healer

Re: New Species Idea: Abarimon

PostPosted: Tuesday, 18th June 2013, 13:50
by Davion Fuxa
Seems just a little bit too over-zealous in removing not only the ability to use Magic, but also the use of Evocations, and pretty well forces the player to only be and Unarmed Specialist.

Not even Trog is this restrictive, and all I can say is that the restrictiveness is taken too far in this species proposal.

Re: New Species Idea: Abarimon

PostPosted: Tuesday, 18th June 2013, 14:42
by TeshiAlair
Seems a bit..dull. Maybe as a challenge race, but doesn't really feel necessary IMO.

Re: New Species Idea: Abarimon

PostPosted: Tuesday, 18th June 2013, 14:46
by Azrael
Doesn't this remove 99% of the challenge of the endgame and post endgame, since all of those enemies try to kill you with magic? Heck, you could just walk up to an Orb of Fire and poke it to death with one of the useless scrolls you found lying around.

Re: New Species Idea: Abarimon

PostPosted: Tuesday, 18th June 2013, 14:53
by njvack
I don't think an OOF's Bolt of Fire or Fireball are "magical fire" attacks -- they're honest-to-god Fire that was conjured magically. I could see immunity to pure conjurations, but not so much elemental spells.

Re: New Species Idea: Abarimon

PostPosted: Tuesday, 18th June 2013, 15:20
by rebthor
Why can't they use reaching weapons?

Re: New Species Idea: Abarimon

PostPosted: Tuesday, 18th June 2013, 15:58
by njvack
They can.

Re: New Species Idea: Abarimon

PostPosted: Tuesday, 18th June 2013, 16:02
by mumra
One suggestion, it's nice if some flavour is included with a species proposal. All you've done is given a big checklist of what they can and can't do, I have no idea what they are. I did then look up Abarimon and discovered they're a real (well, legendary) thing; but I fail to see how the themes and abilities you've selected tie up in any way to what that legend is actually about. Flavour really does help with tying all the aspects of a proposal together, and helping visualise what the proposal is about.

Anyway; the magicless idea really doesn't look all that interesting. This could be ok if evokables were at least allowed. Even with "no magic" you are still going to use magic-like effects such as god powers and potions. In fact it looks like that's all that's allowed.

The "freely swap out cursed items" thing has a further effect on Ash worshippers, you realise Ash's skills boosts are affected by how bounded the player is? This totally breaks Ash play basically.

It kinda seems like this is a race for someone who just wants to tab their way through the game and not worry about any of the deeper gameplay at all. It doesn't add any new mechanics or decisions, it's just taking away 90% of the game.

Re: New Species Idea: Abarimon

PostPosted: Tuesday, 18th June 2013, 17:10
by FalconNL
mumra wrote:One suggestion, it's nice if some flavour is included with a species proposal. All you've done is given a big checklist of what they can and can't do, I have no idea what they are. I did then look up Abarimon and discovered they're a real (well, legendary) thing; but I fail to see how the themes and abilities you've selected tie up in any way to what that legend is actually about.

Yeah, the flavour hasn't received too much attention yet. I tried to find an existing mythological creature that had an ability even vaguely similar to being unaffected by magic, but sursprisingly there are few, if any. Some works have humans that have this ability (e.g. in the Sword of Truth novels), but of course humans are already accounted for. I therefore decided to pick a creature that is known for being fast to at least vaguely tie in to existing mythology.

mumra wrote:Anyway; the magicless idea really doesn't look all that interesting. This could be ok if evokables were at least allowed. Even with "no magic" you are still going to use magic-like effects such as god powers and potions. In fact it looks like that's all that's allowed.

By allowing evokables you mitagite a good deal of the penalty of not being able to use magic, which would just make them pretty much strictly superior to most of the melee-oriented races.

mumra wrote:The "freely swap out cursed items" thing has a further effect on Ash worshippers, you realise Ash's skills boosts are affected by how bounded the player is? This totally breaks Ash play basically.

I know, hence I mentioned that that bonus is negated since you are not actually 'shackled'.

mumra wrote:It kinda seems like this is a race for someone who just wants to tab their way through the game and not worry about any of the deeper gameplay at all. It doesn't add any new mechanics or decisions, it's just taking away 90% of the game.

Obviously this race marks a significant change to the gameplay. Still, I figured there would still be enough interesting decisions left. Consensus so far, however, seems to disagree. Very well, it was worth a shot. Perhaps somewhere down the line someone can use some of the ideas here to make a more interesting race.

Re: New Species Idea: Abarimon

PostPosted: Tuesday, 18th June 2013, 17:43
by mumra
FalconNL wrote:
mumra wrote:One suggestion, it's nice if some flavour is included with a species proposal. All you've done is given a big checklist of what they can and can't do, I have no idea what they are. I did then look up Abarimon and discovered they're a real (well, legendary) thing; but I fail to see how the themes and abilities you've selected tie up in any way to what that legend is actually about.

Yeah, the flavour hasn't received too much attention yet. I tried to find an existing mythological creature that had an ability even vaguely similar to being unaffected by magic, but sursprisingly there are few, if any. Some works have humans that have this ability (e.g. in the Sword of Truth novels), but of course humans are already accounted for. I therefore decided to pick a creature that is known for being fast to at least vaguely tie in to existing mythology.


It might not be known as well as you think. It's really much easier to get into a proposal if it starts with just a paragraph about what on earth the creature is rather than just a name.

FalconNL wrote:By allowing evokables you mitagite a good deal of the penalty of not being able to use magic, which would just make them pretty much strictly superior to most of the melee-oriented races.


Well sure but Trog manages just fine by "only" actual casted magic. Where are you even drawing the line? Why aren't potions considered "magical"? What about resists on jewellery/armour? What about weapons with magical properties?

I think I could understand much better if you just said "extremely good magic resistance" and "no real spells". This would mean evokables and consumables were still ok (and really, they're not "a good deal of" the penalty of not being able to use magic; not being able to use magic is the biggest penalty you could possibly think of already, evokables are kind of useful backup for any playstyle but they're kind of niche aside from wands which are just annoying to not have, unless you worship Nemelex but cutting off a whole item class just to balance one god is also a bit extreme...)

FalconNL wrote:
mumra wrote:The "freely swap out cursed items" thing has a further effect on Ash worshippers, you realise Ash's skills boosts are affected by how bounded the player is? This totally breaks Ash play basically.

I know, hence I mentioned that that bonus is negated since you are not actually 'shackled'.


I think maybe you missed what I said. You said that the piety gain bonus is negated. I'm talking about the skill boost, this is a completely different thing, and the best feature of Ash. If that boon goes, Ash is suddenly a very weak deity. Being "curse-immune" has very little gameplay consequence anyway, it's entirely strategical, and it doesn't really fit with the no-magic theme, I don't think curses are supposed to be "magical" in the normal sense...

FalconNL wrote:Obviously this race marks a significant change to the gameplay. Still, I figured there would still be enough interesting decisions left. Consensus so far, however, seems to disagree. Very well, it was worth a shot. Perhaps somewhere down the line someone can use some of the ideas here to make a more interesting race.


Yes, there are some interesting decisions left, like "which weapon do I use? which armour do i wear? when do i drink this potion?"

In fact, those are the only decisions you've left in the game as far as I can see.

No scrolls means I can't even enchant up my melee weapon or armour. Kinda bad for a species relying entirely on melee...

Re: New Species Idea: Abarimon

PostPosted: Tuesday, 18th June 2013, 20:12
by tasonir
I'm not so sure you can be immune to magical fire* - the source of the fire might be magical, but it's still fire. If you could just be outright immune to all sources of elemental damage then this proposal is overpowered.

If you aren't, then my question is mostly about resists: you can't wear armor with egos, or jewelry... With no way to get rF/rC outside of temporary potions, I think you'd run into a lot of problems.

*meaning just because you're immune to magic makes you immune to fire/cold etc. If you're a spirit made of fire, then you're probably immune to fire (djinn).

Re: New Species Idea: Abarimon

PostPosted: Tuesday, 18th June 2013, 22:41
by Igxfl
We already have Felid Berserkers. Is there much of a difference?

Re: New Species Idea: Abarimon

PostPosted: Wednesday, 19th June 2013, 00:15
by tasonir
Felids can wear jewelry, can't wear armor. This race could wear armor, can't wear jewelry. That's about as different as you can get. They share some other things like fast speed, of course.

Suggestion: Rather than forbid equipping armor with egos, just suppress the ego. having a player race with a suppression field/ability might be a good way to revive this proposal?

Re: New Species Idea: Abarimon

PostPosted: Wednesday, 19th June 2013, 14:30
by Lasty
I like this idea better as innate suppression. Having it be a field would be a small bonus to the player, but it would be really irritating if everything displayed the "suppression" tile all game.