Proposal: Kavalyn, God of Violent Delivery


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Mines Malingerer

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Post Thursday, 13th June 2013, 19:38

Proposal: Kavalyn, God of Violent Delivery

Kavalyn is the violent god of delivery, the patron saint of going from point A to point B, preferably with death involved. Nothing pleases this god more than that brief moment of paralyzed, horrified realization as death from afar closes in on the victim.

Purpose: Kavalyn is meant to have powers useful to most characters, but this god is especially beneficial for ranged weapon fighters, pole-arms wielders, evokers, and conjurers. Earning piety with this god is meant to be a different playstyle encouraging better positioning, and more avoidance of melee, but even melee characters can earn piety with this god if they deal their killing blows to Kavalyn's liking. Since this god despises translocations, players must focus on positioning over panic button escapes.

Appreciates:
-Gain piety from traveling.
-Gain piety when you kill enemies at distance (not adjacent), with bonus piety the further away they are.
-Gain piety when you or your allies kill enemies using projectile (see note) attacks and spells.

Deprecates:
-Kavalyn does not like the movement of things without actual travel. Piety loss for the successful use of any translocation spells, or on such effect on you, including effects of potions and enemy attacks.
-Inactivity (lose 1 piety every 500 turns)
-Abandoning Kavalyn (penance)

Note:
Projectile attacks and spells include all ranged and throwing attacks, and any abilities or spells that throw a physical attack at enemies, including things like Iron Shot, all Bolts, all Arrows, all Thrown spells, Lehudib's Crystal Spear, etc.

Given Abilities:
* - Escort of Pain
Kavalyn's Blessing - (passive) - Chance to deal bonus damage on all projectile attacks, increasing bonus damage with distance, and chance with piety.

** - Deliverer of Woe
Reception - (passive) - Absorbs up to 30% of projectile damage as mana, before defenses. Amount absorbed increases with piety.

*** - Courier of Collision
Throw Self - (100-200 food, breath, 8-12 piety) - Flies to a target at high speed, crashing into it for damage based on encumbrance, distance, species size, and wielded weight. Piety cost is partially refunded on kill. This has a chance to knock target back up to 3 steps, chance increasing with size and weight difference. This is considered a ranged attack, and therefore can be blocked, or can miss if enemy moves.

**** - Dispatcher of Disaster
Reroute - All projectile attacks and spells can now ricochet once, until an enemy is struck.

***** - Launcher of Doom
None

****** - Deathbringer
-Swift Body - Can worship at an altar to add Swiftness to any armor item. This can only be done once per game.
-Deliverance - (1d2 piety per floor) - Exchanges one item in inventory for another existing item of its type from anywhere in the dungeon that the player has been to, and can reach by auto-travel. This takes 1 turn per floor, during which player cannot take any action. A stack of the same item counts as one item.

Punishments
-While under penance, there is a chance about every 1000 turns that Kavalyn will scatter up to 5 of your inventory items to random locations on the current floor.
-While under penance, your encumbrance limit is decreased by 10%.


Love to hear feedback/suggestions... in the back of my mind this god could make heavily armored range/spell fighters more viable, and those are always a fave combination for me.

Edits: Removed gender, LOS increase, and clarified Throw Self ability.
Last edited by Noisewar on Thursday, 13th June 2013, 23:48, edited 3 times in total.

Swamp Slogger

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Post Thursday, 13th June 2013, 19:45

Re: Proposal: Kavalyn, Goddess of Violent Delivery

Extending LOS is on the list of can't do/won't do.

Mines Malingerer

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Post Thursday, 13th June 2013, 19:59

Re: Proposal: Kavalyn, Goddess of Violent Delivery

Speleothing wrote:Extending LOS is on the list of can't do/won't do.


Whoops missed that, editing.

Abyss Ambulator

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Post Thursday, 13th June 2013, 20:57

Re: Proposal: Kavalyn, Goddess of Violent Delivery

'Adding' swiftness to any kind of armor seems really overpowered, especially since it doesn't replace other properties like TSO weapon blessing.

Also, getting piety seems like a hassle. If killing enemies right next to you doesn't give piety, then you're pretty much forced to walk away from monsters every time.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 13th June 2013, 23:22

Re: Proposal: Kavalyn, Goddess of Violent Delivery

The god itself seems interesting. Throw self seems a bit contradictory though - you're suddenly going into melee range, which prevents piety gain, and it's also essentially a translocations spell, which is depreciated.

Losing translocations is a pretty steep penalty, but on the other hand it seems like a ranged character with increased damage and bouncing arrows would be pretty overpowered...

On a side note, gods are genderless, so you should probably remove her gender.

Mines Malingerer

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Post Thursday, 13th June 2013, 23:42

Re: Proposal: Kavalyn, Goddess of Violent Delivery

nordetsa wrote:Also, getting piety seems like a hassle. If killing enemies right next to you doesn't give piety, then you're pretty much forced to walk away from monsters every time.


You would still be able to gain piety in melee range by killing with projectile based attack, but point taken.

Mines Malingerer

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Post Thursday, 13th June 2013, 23:44

Re: Proposal: Kavalyn, Goddess of Violent Delivery

tasonir wrote:The god itself seems interesting. Throw self seems a bit contradictory though - you're suddenly going into melee range, which prevents piety gain, and it's also essentially a translocations spell, which is depreciated.


Hmm yeah, I should say that Throw Self itself should be considered a ranged attack. However it's not a translocations spell, as it would be blockable/missable like a thrown weapon.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 13th June 2013, 23:55

Re: Proposal: Kavalyn, God of Violent Delivery

If it takes you from position A to position B which is several tiles away, it has moved your character, which is what I mean by it being a translocations ability. Not all translocations spells move you, but this ability would. If it is blocked, you still moved. If it does knock back the target then you might still be able to get piety killing it at range, but that's probably not that big of a deal.

Note that it's not actually possible for monsters to move between the player taking an action and that action finishing, so monsters couldn't move out of the way of throw self. The only way would be if you plan something very odd like turning the player into an orb of destruction; ie, the ability takes multiple turns during which you don't have control of your character. I don't know how feasible that would be or if many people would like the idea. Playing an Ogre boulder beetle would be kind of funny though.
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Dungeon Master

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Post Friday, 14th June 2013, 01:25

Re: Proposal: Kavalyn, God of Violent Delivery

I think the major thing your proposal is missing is something I call "elegance." Basically, I can't see much emergent behavior sprouting up around the toolset you've provided here. Consider Cheibraidos. The god's slowing mechanic is very easy to understand on a surface level, but mastering it so you can play Chei worshipers well is difficult, learning alternative ways of escape and how to best exploit the additional stats. Lugonu sparks interesting choices too. Where should I corrupt to make this easiest? What situation is dire enough I should depart to the Abyss? Trog's Berserk also brings difficulties. When should I berserk? Am I sure I can kill all these enemies before it runs out?

Kavalyn's abilities don't really do this. Let me go through them in order:
    Kavalyn's Blessing- Literally just doing more damage, this just makes things dead faster when you're doing what you do already.

    Reception - Similar to repel missiles, it makes ranged monsters less effective. This doesn't do much except put ranged monsters lower on the player's priority list. Also boosts mana, which is another thing which just enhances something which already exists.

    Throw Self - One of the best designed abilities, This makes the player choose when a monster is so close it should be knocked back, how to get in a position for max damage, when to go for the kill, and when to give up the advantage of distance. It's a bit complicated, though.

    Reroute - Probably the my favorite ability, this changes how ranged players aim their shots for max damage while being immediately comprehensible and intuitive. Stealing from Air Spells may be a problem, though.

    Swift Body - Might encourage kiting and let players get away from slightly faster monsters.

    Deliverance - Basically gives the player some extra inventory slots to play with. I've only ever felt I needed more inventory slots out of annoyance rather than genuine need.

Not that a lot of your abilities come from other places in the game. Look at Cheibraidos's abilities, could you see any ability which can be replicated elsewhere in the game? Good choices help even more when the choices are original.

Also, while the concept sounds interesting, but I worry that it's a bit niche. New gods nowadays don't cater to a specific play style. Look as Ashenzari, Cheibriados, Jiyva, Fedhas, etc. There aren't any recent new gods which scream out "USE ME WITH COMBOS THAT DO X", which this god does (to Hunters and Conjurers). One major problem is this god could reduce choice for those combos, by being so effective it would be a no-brainer to choice her.

Some more surface problems:
    Piety for killing enemies at a distance encourages kiting popcorn to get more piety. You already use "far away from enemies" for Kavalyn's Blessing, so just make it "Piety for killing things."

    The first punishment is pretty scummy too- you'd have to re-explore the level to get your items back.

    Deliverance is a terrible ability. With the restrictions you put on it, why would anybody use this over just going and grabbing the item? If it was instant and the cost was a flat ~5 piety, it might see some niche use.

    Swift Body would require special coding.Just increasing speed for high piety with this god would be simpler. It also might be overpowered.

    I assume that in Reroute, you mean "all projectiles will function like lightning spells until they hit something." The description could be more specific.

    Reception giving MP would be bad because Kavalyn tramples into Vehement space enough already. Maybe use HP instead? Reception would also have to be investigated to ensure it isn't strong enough to encourage leaving ranged monsters alive.

    Check out the thread on the Jump ability- it overlaps quite a bit with Throw Self.

    DeathBringer? Seriously, the rest of the titles were awesome and the last one is this? At the very least switch it with "Dispatcher of Disaster" ;)
On IRC my nick is reaverb. I play online under the name reaver, though.

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Noisewar

Mines Malingerer

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Post Friday, 14th June 2013, 02:15

Re: Proposal: Kavalyn, God of Violent Delivery

How about some kind of 'snipe' a one shot ranged 'backstab'. (my apologies if it was already suggested)
Or a 'scope' ability, allowing you to switch your view to a long line in one direction. (might be difficult to code)
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Dungeon Master

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Post Friday, 14th June 2013, 03:51

Re: Proposal: Kavalyn, God of Violent Delivery

Both of those are actually on the won't do list!

Also, God of Making Ranged Characters Better doesn't sound terribly interesting, sorry. Gods are best when their theme is "perpendicular" to the skills you're using. Note Ash, who's one of the coolest gods, and works for basically everyone.

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Lasty

Vestibule Violator

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Post Friday, 14th June 2013, 17:07

Re: Proposal: Kavalyn, God of Violent Delivery

I feel like this god rewards people for playing well. Reduce resting? Check. Kill things far away when possible so they can't kill you? Check. Don't get into situations where you'll have to use an escape item? Check.

And really, the penance effects? Scatters inventory - who cares 99.9% of the time? Makes you carry less. Who cares even more?

Snake Sneak

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Post Friday, 14th June 2013, 18:21

Re: Proposal: Kavalyn, God of Violent Delivery

rebthor wrote:Scatters inventory - who cares 99.9% of the time?

At first glance i missed "up to 5" part and considered Kavalyn's wrath as worst in game.
What would be fun is a God who uses piety like a fighting game style super meter. Piety decays rapidly outside of combat, builds up during fights, spend it for secret techniques and super moves.

Snake Sneak

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Post Friday, 14th June 2013, 18:35

Re: Proposal: Kavalyn, God of Violent Delivery

I think it's pretty interesting.
I would say, his piety should decay REALLY fast if you aren't exploring new areas. So much so, that the character has a disincentive to rest.
Balance that with a way to spend piety to heal, maybe? The effect could be a god who is all about go, go, go, encouraging a distinct type of play.

Mines Malingerer

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Post Saturday, 15th June 2013, 04:07

Re: Proposal: Kavalyn, God of Violent Delivery

reaver wrote:I think the major thing your proposal is missing is something I call "elegance." Basically, I can't see much emergent behavior sprouting up around the toolset you've provided here.
[/list]


Really good feedback overall, and made me think hard on this. I think the trap I fell into was my desire to create something that gave an auxillary ranged last-hitting power to a ME vanguard-like class (with Throw Self) might be emergent and fun for the weird class combinations I was thinking of, but for 99% of ranged characters, just adds a vanilla "more damage" dimension. This kind of desire belongs on a class, not a god.

I don't have any answers as you've kind of exposed some flawed understandings I have of DCSS design... but I think the biggest offenders are the first 2 given abilities. The other one idea I was struggling with was for a way for items in LOS on the ground to "throw" themselves through a target location, possibly setting up some interesting traps.

Specifically regarding Deliverance, yeah that was trying to solve a problem that belongs elsewhere, namely I find DCSS' need for stashing really annoying and counter-fun, and wanted something to solve this. Thematically made sense to me, but as a God ability, probably the wrong philosophy.

Mines Malingerer

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Post Saturday, 15th June 2013, 04:09

Re: Proposal: Kavalyn, God of Violent Delivery

kenmtraveller wrote:I think it's pretty interesting.
I would say, his piety should decay REALLY fast if you aren't exploring new areas. So much so, that the character has a disincentive to rest.
Balance that with a way to spend piety to heal, maybe? The effect could be a god who is all about go, go, go, encouraging a distinct type of play.


Would love to see a god where piety is built by kill momentum, encouraging you to try to kite in big risky batches of enemies to attempt to kill all at once.
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Saturday, 15th June 2013, 19:08

Re: Proposal: Kavalyn, God of Violent Delivery

The only real "need" for stashing in Crawl is to satisfy your OCD tendencies (like I do) :)

Ctrl-F works just as well as long as the level has been cleared in most cases. At worst you can pile up junk in an out of the way corner if you're paranoid about jellies or dudes picking up your stuff and using it against you.

Dungeon Master

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Post Monday, 17th June 2013, 13:34

Re: Proposal: Kavalyn, God of Violent Delivery

Noisewar wrote:DCSS' need for stashing really annoying and counter-fun


DCSS's need for stashing is a lot like Santa Claus: despite how often they each get discussed, neither one exists. DCSS is actually noteworthy for how completely unnecessary stashing is. Seriously, try playing without stashing for a week. You may be amazed at how much time it saves you -- and even how many resources it saves you.

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Monday, 17th June 2013, 17:23

Re: Proposal: Kavalyn, God of Violent Delivery

I have tried removing it. I find it very frustrating to not stash. I'll finish a branch and then I want to look for a recharging scroll. So I search, find one 8 floors down, go pick it up. Then I want to check to see if I can enchant my new armor item, and find a scroll 6 floors back up from where I came. Then I want to restock potions and it's 6 floors up from where I started, or left down in the end of snake, etc etc.

Some of the running back and forth could be alleviated if I searched for all the things I wanted first, and then did them in a reasonable order, but that requires planning out everything I want to do. I am also likely to forget something that could have been useful - maybe I've forgotten that I found a spellbook with a useful spell since I haven't played in two days and I won't remember to search for it.

I think stashing is much easier than non-stashing.

Dungeon Master

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Post Monday, 17th June 2013, 17:34

Re: Proposal: Kavalyn, God of Violent Delivery

With travel_delay = -1 the running back and forth isn't really that bad. Although I do find it very convenient to mark a waypoint on my stash so it's very quick to just go there and have everything available to me, particularly for spellbooks, and also for curse / remove scrolls with Ash.

But in terms of turns or food costs this is really insignificant. I remember at one point moving my whole stash from Lair to Hive and then to Vestibule once I'd cleared them, I definitely wouldn't bother with that anymore.

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