Arcane Marksman (was: Launchers with Infinite Unbranded Ammo)

[mumra]

The discussion is getting slightly diverted onto AM here; I do have further ideas about how to change the background but I didn't feel like I had a complete proposal yet so I haven't written it up anywhere yet. These are actually ideas I was thinking about pre-tourament and they got slightly sidelined then and also by the misc. items stuff I've been looking at more recently. My general thinking is that right now Inner Flame would be one of the most fitting AM spells except that it's really awkward to use, necessitating Enslavement which thematically should be nowhere near the AM spellbook. "Arcane Marksman" suggests to me the idea of using magic alongside ranged combat to rain destruction down on the battlefield; what they have right now are largely tools to keep enemies at arms length so they can shoot them a bit more easily. (I'm not sure if I'm quite making my conceptual distinction clear enough there...) I think the current AM spellbook has an interesting theme but it has loads of overlap with Enchanters and we could just give them a ranged weapon option to create a similar effect; or call current AM something different (e.g. "Witcher") and tweak the spellbook a bit and it'd make a lot more sense. Basically the playstyle doesn't in my mind live up to how its name sounds.

[Tiber]

The discussion is getting slightly diverted onto AM here; I do have further ideas about how to change the background but I didn't feel like I had a complete proposal yet so I haven't written it up anywhere yet. These are actually ideas I was thinking about pre-tourament and they got slightly sidelined then and also by the misc. items stuff I've been looking at more recently. My general thinking is that right now Inner Flame would be one of the most fitting AM spells except that it's really awkward to use, necessitating Enslavement which thematically should be nowhere near the AM spellbook. "Arcane Marksman" suggests to me the idea of using magic alongside ranged combat to rain destruction down on the battlefield; what they have right now are largely tools to keep enemies at arms length so they can shoot them a bit more easily. (I'm not sure if I'm quite making my conceptual distinction clear enough there...) I think the current AM spellbook has an interesting theme but it has loads of overlap with Enchanters and we could just give them a ranged weapon option to create a similar effect; or call current AM something different (e.g. "Witcher") and tweak the spellbook a bit and it'd make a lot more sense. Basically the playstyle doesn't in my mind live up to how its name sounds.

I think enchanters and AM are very different. One is more of a stabber with magic, the other uses hexes to debilitate foes and attack from afar. I would not support merging them. I agree that enslavement doesn't thematically fit with AM (though the inner flame -> enslavement combo is oh so fun), but I think overall the class works, and hexers are underrepresented as starting characters. Rename the class if you must, but I think that playstyle should be preserved.

[mumra]

I think enchanters and AM are very different. One is more of a stabber with magic, the other uses hexes to debilitate foes and attack from afar. I would not support merging them. I agree that enslavement doesn't thematically fit with AM (though the inner flame -> enslavement combo is oh so fun), but I think overall the class works, and hexers are underrepresented as starting characters. Rename the class if you must, but I think that playstyle should be preserved.

Yes, I agree there is a distinction; but it could be more pronounced. I don't at all agree with "hexers are underrepresented" ... there are two hex backgrounds but only one background for most other magic schools. I don't see how they're any less represented, and in fact it is easier to make the argument "the hex niche is already filled". I think an easier claim to make is "ranged combat is underrepresented". We have one ranged fighter, one ranged-magic hybrid, and (very loosely) one ranged-melee hybrid (Assassin). Whereas how many mages do we have, or mage-fighter hybrids, etc.

Anyway I would prefer to turn AM into two backgrounds; one much like current AM but without inner flame/enslavement and gaining a new spell or two, having a focus on hexes and battlefield management; and the other is kind of a new thing with Spirit Ammo, Inner Flame, and other spells that encourage the mechanic of using ranged to cause magical effects, and a different way to utilise Inner Flame that actually synergises with their other tool rather than feeling bolted-on. However I got a slightly mixed reception to this proposal when I mentioned it before on IRC and I'd like to have a more fully fleshed out set of spells for both background before I pursue this too much further; I have some ideas already which I haven't mentioned but they need some work still.

[mumra]

So, spirit arrow is like magic dart except it uses the bow skill instead of the conjuration skill. Doesn't sound very interesting to me. And I don't see the issue with having to melee to save ammo. Conjurers do the same to save MP.

Well, when I was testing AM I found I was often running very low on ammo even when using melee to conserve. This is a much bigger problem when choosing a weapon other than bows, since arrows quickly become plentiful once you start meeting centaurs, but for other ammo types it can take much longer to find a plentiful supply. Also AM have to invest in an additional weapon skill than conjurers.

However, the point is noted that a spell purely to conserve ammo isn't very interesting and it would probably need something else; but I don't find Corona very interesting either.

[battaile]

or call current AM something different (e.g. "Witcher")

Whether its a simple rebranding of AM or something more involved, I would like to give my heartiest endorsement to having a background called "Witcher".

[prozacelf]

"Arcane Marksman" suggests to me the idea of using magic alongside ranged combat to rain destruction down on the battlefield; what they have right now are largely tools to keep enemies at arms length so they can shoot them a bit more easily. (I'm not sure if I'm quite making my conceptual distinction clear enough there...) I think the current AM spellbook has an interesting theme but it has loads of overlap with Enchanters and we could just give them a ranged weapon option to create a similar effect; or call current AM something different (e.g. "Witcher") and tweak the spellbook a bit and it'd make a lot more sense. Basically the playstyle doesn't in my mind live up to how its name sounds.

I agree mumra. I think something that would make more sense for my idea of "Arcane Marksman" would be to give them the branding spells out of war chants along with the Spirit Ammo and Inner Flame and maybe one other thematically appropriate spell. As it stands they seem like ranged Enchanters without the stabbing. And since Skald is undergoing an overhaul anyway.....

[mumra]

I agree mumra. I think something that would make more sense for my idea of "Arcane Marksman" would be to give them the branding spells out of war chants along with the Spirit Ammo and Inner Flame and maybe one other thematically appropriate spell. As it stands they seem like ranged Enchanters without the stabbing. And since Skald is undergoing an overhaul anyway.....

I'm not so sure about the brand spells, at least as they currently are - they'd be boring here for the same reasons as they will hopefully soon be removed from Skalds. Considering how interesting the newly designed starting books are looking (Skald/Conjurer) I think more can be done. Maybe some souped-up brand spells with effects that can't be obtained any other way and aren't Vorpalisable could be worth thinking about. But yes, this is still much more what an AM sounds like it should be.

[rebthor]

Blink? Portal projectile?

I always found it very weird that AM doesn't start with portal projectile any more.

[mumra]

I've thought a lot about portal projectile - in a way it's the most "arcane marksman" spell you could possibly hope to have. What I'm not sure about is whether it synergises with ranged combat in quite the way I imagine for AM. It can work quite well with Inner Flame, however.

[njvack]

I'm definitely in the "I expected Portal Projectile to be in the AM starting book" camp -- but it doesn't fit in Debilitations even more than Debilitations is somewhat odd as an AM starting book.

I do think there's probably room for interesting launcher-only branding spells...

[galehar]

Well, when I was testing AM I found I was often running very low on ammo even when using melee to conserve. This is a much bigger problem when choosing a weapon other than bows, since arrows quickly become plentiful once you start meeting centaurs, but for other ammo types it can take much longer to find a plentiful supply.

Maybe just increase starting ammo, although you have to be careful to not step on hunter's too. There needs to be a reason to choose hunter over AM.

Also AM have to invest in an additional weapon skill than conjurers.

Well, AM starts with a ranged weapon and a book, that's pretty good. It might be harder on the first levels, but I think it's fair.

However, the point is noted that a spell purely to conserve ammo isn't very interesting and it would probably need something else; but I don't find Corona very interesting either.

Yeah, sure, corona isn't the most interesting spell. It does fit well with AM early playstyle though.

[Speleothing]

Maybe just increase starting ammo, although you have to be careful to not step on hunter's too. There needs to be a reason to choose hunter over AM.

Currently the difference between the Warrior Classes vs the Zealot & Warrior-Mage classes is that Warriors get better starting equipment and more-focused starting skills (which leads to reaching mindelay faster etc etc). Unfortunately ranged weapons are lacking the finely-tuned range of possible equipment that melee weapons get. The reason you can't give Hunters a compound bow* or an arbalest or a sling-staff is because those don't exist (yet).

Yeah, sure, corona isn't the most interesting spell. It does fit well with AM early playstyle though.

Magic Dart isn't interesting, either. But it sure is useful.



*Highly anachronistic, but how detailed into bowmaking techniques do we want to get?

[pubby]

I don't see the purpose of "spirit ammo" when "magic dart" could just be repurposed into "magic missile" that works with the launcher you're wielding. Although honestly, I don't really like the idea of a spell that replaces missiles. Ranged shouldn't behave as spellcasting and whatnot.

The biggest problem with inner flame is that you don't get portal projectile. Also, it would be easier if inner flame was smite targetable itself.

[prozacelf]

I agree mumra. I think something that would make more sense for my idea of "Arcane Marksman" would be to give them the branding spells out of war chants along with the Spirit Ammo and Inner Flame and maybe one other thematically appropriate spell. As it stands they seem like ranged Enchanters without the stabbing. And since Skald is undergoing an overhaul anyway.....

I'm not so sure about the brand spells, at least as they currently are - they'd be boring here for the same reasons as they will hopefully soon be removed from Skalds. Considering how interesting the newly designed starting books are looking (Skald/Conjurer) I think more can be done. Maybe some souped-up brand spells with effects that can't be obtained any other way and aren't Vorpalisable could be worth thinking about. But yes, this is still much more what an AM sounds like it should be.

I wasn't necessarily saying that they need to be the branding spells out of War Chants, it was just what immediately sprang to mind, and I wanted to get the idea across without trying to imagine up new spells to fill the gap. The relative prevalence of branded ammo might make those spells kind of pointless anyway. I do like the direction these ideas are taking though. Perhaps a spell that gave some sort of explosive branding would be interesting (non-Vorpalisable, of course).

[crate]

so .... what's wrong with AM? Leda is really silly because it works in a dumb way and ends up super OP because of it, and AM could possibly use a level 3 spell that is actually good with ranged combat instead of inner flame, but it certainly doesn't feel weak to me and it's a lot more fun than Hunter.

The AM book is actually a fun hex book, unlike the enchanter book.

[njvack]

so .... what's wrong with AM? Leda is really silly because it works in a dumb way and ends up super OP because of it

Mainly, the name, I think. Enslavement, Inner Flame, and arguably Cause Fear really don't sound very "marksman" like.

Also, how is leda's broken? Does it not slow your movement, but only everyone else's?

[rchandra]

Leda's slows your movement and other's actions. It also gives fumbling penalties to melee (all around, but you don't care since you're shooting).

[crate]

a human of chei casting leda outruns monsters

[qoala]

This probably needs some reworking to not be too powerful later, but as I was mentally mixing together bits and pieces of ideas in this thread and the other, I had a silly idea. It's designed to fit in a line up of interesting launcher-only temp-brands which can only be created by casting spells from a hypothetical new AM book.

What if instead Spirit Ammo granted a launcher-only "spirit brand" (might be better balanced as a level 2 spell rather than 1, not sure):
The weapon fires very weak shots (maybe around 50% damage), which use no ammo but costs 1mp/shot.
If the projectile hits a monster, it marks the target, inflicting backlit for a short duration. The duration and/or it's degree (rate of decay) scales inversely with monster HD (or MR, or something).

Problem: there should be a better way in the interface to cancel this double-edged brand than to unwield+wield. Perhaps (if it doesn't break the quiver interface) the spell might quiver a dummy entry for spirit ammo, and the player can switch back to normal arrows to override the brand. Firing any other arrow should clear the weapon's brand, so that the player isn't encouraged to swap back and forth as the backlit status ends. Simply hitting '('/')' should possibly NOT end the spell, allowing the player to switch back and continue firing spirit ammo in the event of an accidental key press.

The goal is to offer ammo-less damage that can't carry the game, while providing a markedly different effect than "magic dart, but with a bow". The corona effect still benefits the playstyle, but is now delivered in a form more appropriate to "raining destruction down upon the battlefield."
So popcorn, when the player is willing to afford the significant damage penalties, can possibly be fought with this brand alone for no ammo.
Early on, when ammo is still tight, one could fire one or two spirit shots before switching to (now more accurate) regular ammo.
In the midgame, a strategy of marking a series of opponents before switching to more damaging options might be most optimal. This stage should pair well with other hypothetical launcher-only spell-brands; paint targets with Spirit Ammo, then kill with something else.
Eventually, the opponents should have high enough HD that the duration of the effect is at most a couple shots. The status effect no longer provides as much benefit for the time spent not doing significant damage to the opponent, and will probably be forgotten (but hey, it's a level 1 or 2 spell).

It should be noted that backlit without an MR check is good. My hope is that by scaling the duration inversely with opponent HD, that it'll be good early game, passable midgame, and not worth the time casting and firing late game. Apparently I misremembered such scaling already existing for some effects (as far as I can tell, it doesn't), but it should be easily explainable to the player.

I don't know the numbers for ranged weapon damage. When a Cj/Wz has just maxed out magic dart, then the AM's spirit ammo should hit less hard and isn't auto-hit but offers a good debuff.

[prozacelf]

I'm pretty sure confusion's duration is more or less inverse to monster HD with a random element thrown in.

E: The spirit ammo idea sounds more interesting than "magic dart with a launcher" though.

[Sandman25]

Is it possible to have special handling of Arcane Marksman for Okawaru? Or just remove penance for death of enslaved allies for Oka. Otherwise DgAM with steel bolts/sling bullets is the only viable combo if you want to use Enslavement often and have enough ammo.

[crate]

Um, oka already doesn't care if enslaved allies die, unless you kill them yourself while they are enslaved.

[mumra]

In any case I think special-casing a god's attitude to a particular background would be a very very bad idea (at least beyond the very limited way that religious backgrounds are handled).

[DracheReborn]

I think an easier claim to make is "ranged combat is underrepresented".

I agree! But I don't think the answer is to create more AM backgrounds. How about modifying existing backgrounds to give them a ranged option?

For example, Warpers have really nice synergy with ranged (Portal Projectile, Blink, Apportation). Why can't Warpers have a choice of starting with melee + darts, or starting with a launcher?

For another, why can't the new Skald spells work with ranged? Using MP to boost killing power is in fact, what I originally thought the AM background was about (imagine my disappointment when I first tried an AM, hah). Though Spectral Weapon on a launcher would turn into, well, Battlesphere, so maybe that would need tweaking. Infusion, song of slaying, and spirit shield should all be useful though.

For that matter, why should the Book of Debilitations be restricted to ranged users. I recently found it early on a FeMo, and still found Corona, Slow, and Enslavement immensely useful (Inner Flame was trickier to set up, as you can imagine. Works pretty well with enslave though.)

So my proposal is, do away with the artificial limitation on warrior-mage types, and allow them to choose either a melee or ranged weapon. AM can be renamed Witcher (I like that name), Warper and Skald stay as is. Enchanter and Transmuter don't work with ranged, so leave them be.

On the subject of ammunition, how about a spell like "Fortify Ammo". During the duration of the spell, any launched missile becomes especially tough/durable, giving it a small boost to damage and making it invulnerable to mulch for that round (or at least mulch at a lower rate). The damage boost can be a flat amount, making it useful early but less so later on. Spell power can scale the duration. So if you have a character who's down to his last handful of arrows/bolts, you can keep casting this spell to preserve your ammo.