Formicids (Was: Dwants)

[Siegurt]

Bad forms should be penalizing, you shouldn't get to dig or shaft when you get maliciously polymorphed into a tree, hog, porcupine, etc.

Transmutations which you can end probably should prevent you from digging if they meld your "hands" (So pretty much everything but statue and lich form) however it's much less of a big deal to end your spider form to regain your racial abilities.

[Galefury]

I haven't tried them, but I have a comment: I don't think retractable antennae are a good idea. Slot restrictions are not the end of the world, and it seems pointless to change the rules of the mutation just for the sake of avoiding the slot restriction. The race already has enough special things, just give them normal antennae.

They were originally like this, but there was a really awkward transition from antennae 2 to 3 as it knocked off your hat. Really made me angry when I found a good hat early on, but the moment I turned XL 16 I couldn't wear it anymore. But also, the retractable antennae make the equipment decision more interesting. It's not obvious if you should wear headgear or not, and I like that.

Have you played a demonspawn? It works fine for them. I'd rather see formicids start with antennae three than having retractable antennae. It may make the equipment decision somewhat more interesting, but inconsistent mechanics make crawl as a whole worse in my opinion.

[spudwalt]

Formicids in porcupine form can still dig. Is that intended?

I don't know, should it be? I allowed shafting in forms because it made forms very penalizing otherwise. Digging was allowed due to consistency, but both of these could be a mistake.

I'd say it depends on what the flavor of their digging/shafting abilities are. If Formicids are supposed to be digging using magic, then they should still be able to dig while polymorphed (kinda like how polymorphed tengu can still fly). If it's a purely physical ability, then being polymorphed should restrict their digging (depending on what form; lich form is probably okay, but not pig or porcupine form).

Speaking of lich form, if Formicids do get implemented, Necromutation will probably have to have a little note added to the flavor text regarding it working fine on Formicids (who have exoskeletons instead of endoskeletons). Probably we could just stick it in right around where it mentions octopodes.

...there was a really awkward transition from antennae 2 to 3 as it knocked off your hat. Really made me angry when I found a good hat early on, but the moment I turned XL 16 I couldn't wear it anymore...

Have you played a demonspawn? It works fine for them. I'd rather see formicids start with antennae three than having retractable antennae. It may make the equipment decision somewhat more interesting, but inconsistent mechanics make crawl as a whole worse in my opinion.

I'd agree with Galefury about getting rid of the retractable antennae; demonspawn (who can get antennae or horns) and minotaurs (who can randomly mutate to horns 3) have the same problem with headgear, and they work out fine. For races like those, you just have keep in mind that you may have to give up wearing a hat at some point; it might be a bit unfair if you find a randart +4 wizard hat of Amazingness early on, but this is a game where it's not unheard of for people to come down a stairway, notice a centaur pack, then die a swift, horrible death before they have time to react. Heck, I've found gold dragon hides on D:1-3 twice, and both times I wasn't using heavy armor (one of those times I was a felid, even).

I think I prefer the increasing levels of antennae, but I'm not going to object if you decide to just give them antennae 3 from the get-go. Just make them non-retractable.

[bisonbisonbison]

I'm just curious if there's any status update on this species getting a broader release?

[pubby]

I'm just curious if there's any status update on this species getting a broader release?

Have to wait until the tourney is over (October 27) to find out. Hopefully I'll get an answer then.

[dck]

So, did you get an answer on this?

[Tiktacy]

So, did you get an answer on this?

I really hope so, this seems so much cooler than gargoyles, and probably way less broken.

[pubby]

So, did you get an answer on this?

It looks like they just went in:
https://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/commi ... 9b6e0e8e9b

[WalkerBoh]

Excellent, I strongly approve this merge.

[dck]

Finally something that isn't awful. Life might be worth living after all!

[Mankeli]

So, did you get an answer on this?

It looks like they just went in:
https://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/commi ... 9b6e0e8e9b

Awesome, I'll give it a new go, no without the lag!

[varsovie]

Ok just tryed. First thing I did was to spam shaft up to D14.

I don't really like it, maybe with a restriction (1 shaft each three level), because yes it has rsk, but it's a very good out of jail card. Combine with map scroll or Ash, maybe it's too much.

It's also the only ability in the game that allows you to "skip" a level.

[reaver]

It's also the only ability in the game that allows you to "skip" a level.

There's also running away until you find a down staircase.

I don't really like it, maybe with a restriction (1 shaft each three level), because yes it has rsk, but it's a very good out of jail card. Combine with map scroll or Ash, maybe it's too much.

The ability used to accelerate the OOD timer, but that was removed for a variety of good reasons. If it needs a nerf than I'm sure costs like rotting, stat draining, regular draining, etc. will be enough to balance it.

[WalkerBoh]

I really hope the cost would not be terrible things like rot or stat drain. Something like an exhaustion timer would be better - it is quite noisy after all, right?

[Bloax]

I don't see how shafting being extra useful if you blow a mapping scroll or go Ashenzari is anything worth worrying about.
That's like saying firestorm is overpowered because you can use it a lot with Vehumet against big groups. Which would be the best-case scenario for the thing at hand.

It can't be used at low hp while in trouble either, and due to the stasis you can't just blink away to do it.
not that this makes the race less interesting though

[Sandman25]

What's the point of rushing to D14?

[varsovie]

What's the point of rushing to D14?

There wasn't, maybe useful for speedrun though. I wanted to see if their's any drawback other than the obvious "being shafted".

[Tiktacy]

It's also the only ability in the game that allows you to "skip" a level.

There's also running away until you find a down staircase.

I don't really like it, maybe with a restriction (1 shaft each three level), because yes it has rsk, but it's a very good out of jail card. Combine with map scroll or Ash, maybe it's too much.

The ability used to accelerate the OOD timer, but that was removed for a variety of good reasons. If it needs a nerf than I'm sure costs like rotting, stat draining, regular draining, etc. will be enough to balance it.

New draining is almost as bad as mutations. Please don't make it more common than it already is.

[MoogleDan]

The fact that shafting is useless when it comes to branch ends, which are generally the most dangerous floors in the game, ought to count for something in terms of them being balanced. Considering that their biggest free panic button comes with that kind of limitation, maybe it SHOULD be really solid the rest of the time.

[Wahaha]

It's their ONLY "panic button", excluding god abilities. And "dropping 1 to 3 levels down into unexplored territory" isn't a solid escape mechanism. It's worse than a teleport, and this race can't teleport. Not sure how anyone could think this needs a nerf.

[MrPlanck]

It's their ONLY "panic button", excluding god abilities. And "dropping 1 to 3 levels down into unexplored territory" isn't a solid escape mechanism. It's worse than a teleport, and this race can't teleport. Not sure how anyone could think this needs a nerf.

Throw in poison susceptibility and it's hard for me to imagine what this race is all about. Can't speed up, teleport, blink, and you are even more vulnerable to early game menaces such as adders and scorpions. But you can take a huge gamble and drop deeper into more dangerous territory if the going gets rough.

[and into]

It's their ONLY "panic button", excluding god abilities. And "dropping 1 to 3 levels down into unexplored territory" isn't a solid escape mechanism. It's worse than a teleport, and this race can't teleport. Not sure how anyone could think this needs a nerf.

Throw in poison susceptibility and it's hard for me to imagine what this race is all about. Can't speed up, teleport, blink, and you are even more vulnerable to early game menaces such as adders and scorpions. But you can take a huge gamble and drop deeper into more dangerous territory if the going gets rough.

Can use 2H as 1H or they rock GSC despite average size (which means no stealth and dodging malus that Trolls and Ogres get), fast leveling, and a very good, well-rounded set of aptitudes that don't railroad you into one specific kind of play style. Playing chutes and ladders with their self-shafting ability sounds like fun.

Personally I think you could take them up to –10% HP and it would be fine, but it is also cool to keep them at a lower amount of HP and make them more challenging. They do get a small boost to HP at the beginning, and that helps to offset the adder / scorpion problem. And besides, poison vulnerability is only *really* frightening when things that cast venom bolt and p. arrow start showing up, but by that time you will have had some opportunities to offset that liability.

Formicids are a welcome addition. Outside of Trog, nearly everyone uses blink and haste, and everyone (including Troglodytes) uses teleport. So having a species that doesn't use those things (but has other unique advantages) is a big plus. Not every species has to be power-gamey. Formicids sound like they will present a much more interesting balance of challenges and advantages than, say, mummies do. I'm glad they are in Trunk and hope they get added to 0.14.

[MrPlanck]

One note, 2H + shield is indeed strong, but takes quite some training to carry off both successfully. GSC needs a lot of mace training to be a better option than GC. And, you have to find a shield. For a long time, you are stuck with a flail and no shield and no way to escape reliably other than shafting 1-3 levels.

[1010011010]

My first attempt (while not ill at 3:00 AM) with a Formicid has got to Zot and still going. I went for a basic straight fighter with Okawaru and have found It a pretty strong race for two points.

1) It's very formidable in Melee, especially when one on one due to the shield + two hander and high strength.
2) It's very good at setting up one on one fights. Dig creates corridors in most places, antenna gives monster locations, stasis stops unpredictable teleports.

I thought I might have problems with ranged monsters, but only cursed skulls proved dangerous and forced me to shaft on two out of the three occasions, otherwise luring them worked fine. When I did shaft myself, I was easily strong enough to climb back up.

This is the fist time using Oka in a while which might skew my judgement, but Fomicids are a fun race to play, not necessarily easy but quite strong.

[Kalma]

I wonder if shafting would be good for reaching slime:6 altar. Might be tricky to get around TRJ with stasis though.

Stasis is really cool as intrinsic. It forces different escape methods instead of the common blink/teleport/haste. And it's refreshing to play a game without "having to" learn haste.

RPois- might be a pain if rune lock remains and you get unlucky with items. But it's not a formicid issue. Having a resistance required rune branch before lock is kinda bad.

[Grandiloquent Gentleman]

Has anyone done Dark maul + Large shield?

[nordetsa]

So susceptible to poison means you gotta find 2 rpois gear to get the poison resistance, right?

Just found a ring of poison resistance, and wondering if I can find another rpois gear. Otherwise trying Snake would be a nightmare...

[Bloax]

Has anyone done Dark maul + Large shield?

You can do this in Zigsprint, it's pretty fun. :p

[Zammy]

Just finished my first win with formicid and here are my 2 cents on the species.
The poison vulnerability felt horrible combined with unreliable escaping methods and low hp at start but it was manageable.
The 2H weapon with shield was indeed extremely powerfull and most of the time I whacked with great mace even thou I has speed branded GSC.
Shafting seemed to be too much of a gamble so didn't use it but to try it out once.

Overall I'd say it's an interesting species, tipped on the challenging side.

[WalkerBoh]

Why were Formicids given a +2 hp apt? That seems pretty ludicrous to me… not every species has to be super easy like Gargoyle.

http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a=commit;h=ac0ec0c7c633de081173161c5292ca07972f6c60

[Sar]

I understand it's XP apt, not HP apt, so they level faster (and get HP faster, yeah).

[and into]

Right, it is EXP apt, the commit message is just pointing out that being a char level or so higher than usual, right up until end of the game when you hit 27, will give formicids a bit extra HP. Not enough to make up for their low HP apt, I'd imagine, but I'm sure it will provide some help. Also helps make them a bit more distinctive. And it fits with the flavor.

[dck]

Actually it makes their hp noticeably higher than other races would have it in the early game which is where it matters the most, so this is a decent buff. Although they already had +1.

[and into]

Actually it makes their hp noticeably higher than other races would have it in the early game which is where it matters the most, so this is a decent buff. Although they already had +1.

Oh, nice. Didn't realize how much the +2 exp would affect it. That's probably a good (and certainly a distinctive) change—it helps formicids avoid frustrating early deaths thanks to higher HP, but (unlike having a good HP aptitude) doesn't let you get ridiculous uber-builds late game that are only threatened by the player falling asleep from boredom with fingers on the J and U keys while in the Abyss.

[pubby]

Also, the +2 EXP is very experimental and might be reverted later. Feedback after testing is appreciated.

[Mankeli]

First serious formicid game and I must say I like them. I think the digging ability should probably cost something in addition to food, probably MP. Shafting is fine. I ran into a nasty bug though: When going with Oka and getting finesse online I get constantly the message "you cannot use finesse because of your stasis". I get this message multiple times per turn so it is making this character unplayable. I've seen others play Okawaru games so this is probably already known so I didn't open a ticket in Mantis. Inform me, if this isn't the case, please. Version crawl_tiles-0.14-a0-788-g14b720c.

[nordetsa]

Got a 15-rune win as a Formicid Fighter. I followed Okawaru first for gears, then TSO, then finally Zin.

I wondered whether I could survive in extended without using any teleportation and blink scroll, and this time I was successful. Making a narrow 1 vs 1 space with digging worked wonders in Pan. Hell was scary with stone walls and wide open spaces, but luckily I didn't come across that many fiends and tormentors.

Haven't used shafting at all I think; it doesn't seem much of an escape option but a difficult choice you make before the battle. For me it feels somewhat like self-petrification, but I guess you could use it not as a panic escape button but something else.

The four arm system is incredible if one can use it (my character equipped a bardiche and a large shield), but with being susceptible to poison and stasis, it would be a challenge for formicid players to get to the point where they can reliably wield both gears and try not to die in the process. Having to find 2 rpois gear to get a poison resistance will be a serious obstacle combined with the rune lock. As for me, I had found one rPois gear when I reached D:14, so I actually went to Shoals at level 16, something I don't usually do. Gladly Illusiw and her bands weren't guarding the rune, so having a Snake branch didn't matter much.

I wonder what it would be like for casters. Stasis would be a huge drawback-a caster without swiftness and haste? That would be really frustrating to play.

[1010011010]

Just finished my FoFi run and except that one OoF that seem to only know fireball, the orb run was the hardest part of the game.

Hell was scary with stone walls and wide open spaces, but luckily I didn't come across that many fiends and tormentors.

I wonder if shafting up to 6 or 7 would be good idea?

[nordetsa]

Just finished my FoFi run and except that one OoF that seem to only know fireball, the orb run was the hardest part of the game.

Hell was scary with stone walls and wide open spaces, but luckily I didn't come across that many fiends and tormentors.

I wonder if shafting up to 6 or 7 would be good idea?

Nope, the game says you can't cast it on Hells. There's no way the developers would've overlooked that.

Shafting in Slimes worked though; I used shaft on Slimes:1 and landed on Slimes:2.

[dpeg]

I really like the species! The drawbacks are meaningful and the three tools you get instead are interesting to use. Using dig tactically all the time is pretty cool, though I couldn't help wonder if it would feel cheap after a while (not suggesting any changes at this point). There's lots of talk about how powerful (or powerless) they are but I am more concerned with how interesting and different Formicids will be.

I wondered whether their stasis may mean that this is a species where going for Slow and Leda's is strong but I didn't get a Fo caster to that stage yet.

[nicolae]

I really like the species! The drawbacks are meaningful and the three tools you get instead are interesting to use. Using dig tactically all the time is pretty cool, though I couldn't help wonder if it would feel cheap after a while (not suggesting any changes at this point).

When I first tried formicids, it did seem weird to me that they dig by the same method as the spell and wand, rather than by moving through the rock and leaving a tunnel behind them like ants do.

[dpeg]

nicolae: True, I thought the same. But I guess it is simpler and better this way.

[1010011010]

I'm surprised it's full power.

[dck]

Wouldn't automatic digging through rock by walking into it be annoying to use if it requires something other than just moving towards it or screw with autoexplore if it doesn't?

[nago]

Just trying Fo.
I am really enjoying this species (more than the other new 3), because it brings the biggest newness in the game, tactical wise (stasis) since I dunno, without adding strange and gimmick abilities and properties.

I've played a FoFi, a very strong combo due the starting shield and in the beginning they feel quite strong - I could bring the 2nd one (the first one I suicided for getting a bad mut) to Lair without too much trouble, despite having a particularly bad drop loot. Being able to dig helps in a lot of situation, while being unable to retreat after a fight has beginning make pre-battle positioning and choosing which monsters fight much more relevant - btw, I'm worshipping Makh, so also using Greater Servant needs a bit more consideration than usual.

The only problem I'm seeing in this race is poison vulnerability: the low hp makes mandatory resting each time the char is poisoned, which is terribly annyoing, plus is really easy to get to red poison even with low/mild threatening enemies, which led to even longer resting than usual (I feel like I've spent half of my time pressing 5).
Furthermore, pois- combined with runelock can make acquiring a Lair rune a nightmare: my Fo was incredibly unlucky (e.g. the only ring I've found after Orc and elf:2! is a ctele one) and I had quite problems with pois in Lair - I've ventured to get a rune with only about 5 curing pot . Fortunately, I got a rpois plate in a shop, otherwise my char would have been certainly killed by now.
Still, with so low curing stock, I hadn't the guts to try Spider, so I went inside Swamp: with stasis' movement problem and low hp, the drake tends to confuse almost every time, which makes a lot of situation quite bad, while swamp dragon are a big pain, especially if forced to fight in choke points.

Overall, I'm finding pois- only a terrible nuisance outiside Lair branches, and can be a death sentence, combined with runelock, if a single rpois item can't be acquired, so rework this aspect could be a nice thing to do.

For now, I'm curios to see how is possible to deal with deeper monster who like to haste them selves (I'm quite worried of liches).

[Sandman25]

Is Chei a good god for the species? You can't be hasted any way and Chei should help to deal with those hasted Liches by having high level conjuration spells castable or by Slouch/Step from Time/high EV etc.

[nago]

Not tried, but probably it's the worst species ever because with slow movement and no translocation it means you have to fight every enemy the moment he spots you - without having a reliable way to positioning yourself during battle or flee.

[johlstei]

No, chei is not a good god for any species. You basically just asked "Is it a good idea to play a character who can't haste, swiftness, run away, teleport, or blink"? Shafting and digging are strong but shafting doesn't help you in branch ends and might just get you killed in a series of escalating bad shaft luck.

[carbonbasedlifeform]

Zin seems only reasonable choice for extended. Just like makhleb for dd. Any other solution for extended looks like serious challenge. From all new (gr, dj, lo, fo) i like them the most.

[spudwalt]

I've been running FoVMs, and they've been pretty fun. I've died a bunch, but that's mostly me just not playing as well as I could have. Getting Cure Poison right from the start really helps with random adders/blowgun kobolds/etc., plus Venom Mages are just kinda fun to play. You have a hard time with various undead stuff/early demons, but them's the breaks.

Shafting hasn't come in handy super often, but I can see it being useful when everything else is going downhill. I did make use of it to get rid of an early quasit -- led him upstairs, then dropped myself back down a level.

The idea of taking on Lair branches is scary, with the poison vulnerability. I haven't made it that far yet, but still... Brrrr.

Hmm, Chei on a Formicid... I'll have to try that out. I'm going to have to pump the crap out of stealth for that, but I think it should be workable. +2 invocations should make things a little simpler.