Formicids (Was: Dwants)

[pubby]

Results of the second poll:

  Code:

Myrmex:      5 dislike, 2 neutral, 10 like
Formicidian: 4 dislike, 2 neutral, 11 like

I really liked both names, but it looks like Formicidian won by a hair.
Still, Formicidian is quite a mouthful with 5 syllables, so I've decided the new name will be simply "Formicid".

All hail the Formicids!
The bikeshed finally has a new name.

An updated patch was posted on mantis, and I'll update the OP.

[BlackSheep]

Klackon

klack klack
Klackoff!
klack klack

[Wark]

They are mortal enemies of the Tengu, who have been the coevolving predators of Formicids for millennia.

This is kind of a minor thing, but introducing such rivalry will probably require the flavour text for Tengu to be amended as well, and I do not think they will benefit from it. Tengu have quite a bit of background information about them in forms of folklore, tales, etc, and Crawl Tengus seem to draw inspiration from these to a certain extent (for instance, the recently introduced unique Sojobo, who shares name with a mythological tengu king). I understand that it is always possible to say that "our Tengu are different", it's just that having something like "The Tengu are an ancient and feared species of bird-people with a legendary propensity for violence... Oh, and they also like to hunt humanoid ants." just does not work for me for some reason. If you want to keep this flavour, I guess it is possible to make it more one-sided (e.g. "Formicids for the longest time have feared and loathed the Tengu race, and regard them as mortal enemies.")

Then again, it is mostly a matter of personal preference, so this complaint probably should not be taken too seriously ^_^'
edit: grammar fix

[jejorda2]

Formics were used in Ender's Game
Formids lines up with Felid and Octopode and is shorter than Formicids.

[Bim]

Have to agree with Wark, Tengu already have a lot of myth behind them, it seems pointless to tack on more. I realise the birds <-> insects thing and I like it in theory, but perhaps making it more one sided (that they just fear and hate them) would mean that Tengus wouldn't also need to be messed with.

[pubby]

This is kind of a minor thing, but introducing such rivalry will probably require the flavour text for Tengu to be amended as well, and I do not think they will benefit from it. Tengu have quite a bit of background information about them in forms of folklore, tales, etc, and Crawl Tengus seem to draw inspiration from these to a certain extent (for instance, the recently introduced unique Sojobo, who shares name with a mythological tengu king). I understand that it is always possible to say that "our Tengu are different", it's just that having something like "The Tengu are an ancient and feared species of bird-people with a legendary propensity for violence... Oh, and they also like to hunt humanoid ants." just does not work for me for some reason. If you want to keep this flavour, I guess it is possible to make it more one-sided (e.g. "Formicids for the longest time have feared and loathed the Tengu race, and regard them as mortal enemies.")

I didn't mention anything related to Tengu in the actual patch so no harm done. Most flavour is simply player theories passed around and isn't actually contained within the game.

Also, FWIW, the Tengu's flavour is pretty much Kenku flavour. Even with the forest branch added, I don't see any descriptions in the game which refers to any Tengu folklore.

Anyway, extended game is a pretty brutal for a melee Formicid:

  Code:

590148 pubby the Impregnable (level 27, -6/186 (189) HPs)
             Began as a Formicid Berserker on June 26, 2013.
             Was the Champion of the Shining One.
             Killed by divine providence
             ... invoked by a balrug
              (14 damage)
             ... in Pandemonium.
             The game lasted 03:21:23 (140085 turns).

There's not much you can do when a hasted Cerebov comes into view!
(Then again, I probably could have survived if I wasn't playing when so sleep deprived)

[XuaXua]

Formics were used in Ender's Game
Formids lines up with Felid and Octopode and is shorter than Formicids.

The "c" is necessary for recognition and relation. Formid sounds like a slime creature with high Transmutations potential.

[Grimm]

i think crawl is formid-able

[Wark]

Also, FWIW, the Tengu's flavour is pretty much Kenku flavour. Even with the forest branch added, I don't see any descriptions in the game which refers to any Tengu folklore.

Ah, I did not mean to say that there are (or should be) any explicit references to the folklore. It is just that the current flavour of Crawl Tengu, wherever it comes from, seems to more or less concur with a number of traits attributed to Tengu in mythology (their general appearance, pride and arrogance, certain propensity for destructive actions), so it is easy to draw parallels between them if the player wants to. I completely agree, though, that most of flavour is basically what the player chooses to believe and imagine.

[Griever7x]

Hello, I must say that I absolutely love the concept of an insectoid race, and that I had something like this in mind for a long time too!
I imagined an insectoid race would have good aptitudes in earth and poison magic as well, and perhaps in stealth and possibly fighting ( due to the predatory/aggressive nature of many insects ) so in my opinion they should have a higher fighting/stealth aptitude and a lower weapon aptitude due to their limbs probably making weapon handling not TOO comfortable. Unarmed and short blades should have a +1 apt, the other weapon categories probably a 0 or even a -1.
As they stand now the aptitudes seem a bit too good across the board, but the leveling speed is nice.
What if they only have a -10% in hp? -20% sounds too much to me.
Also, the flavour stasis adds to this race is really cool, but because of this they should have a lower aptitude in the translocations school. They have their innate escape mechanisms afterall, and with their nice aptitudes in poison and earth they have access to passwall and mephitic cloud, which are excellent ways to escape.
Maybe add an offensive trait? An acidic bite or spit? Damn, they're insects. The spit could be more balanced due to the breath mechanic.
Armor +3 seems a bit too much to me, they have an innate bonus to AC right? Maybe only +2?

This is my opinion though, and they look already promising as they stand now.
I hope my advice will be welcome!

[pubby]

I actually had done some of the changes you mentioned a week or two ago, but haven't released it yet.
Here are the current aptitudes on my version:

  Code:

    APT(SP_FORMICID,        SK_FIGHTING,        0),
    APT(SP_FORMICID,        SK_SHORT_BLADES,    1),
    APT(SP_FORMICID,        SK_LONG_BLADES,     0),
    APT(SP_FORMICID,        SK_AXES,            0),
    APT(SP_FORMICID,        SK_MACES_FLAILS,    0),
    APT(SP_FORMICID,        SK_POLEARMS,        0),
    APT(SP_FORMICID,        SK_STAVES,          0),
    APT(SP_FORMICID,        SK_SLINGS,          1),
    APT(SP_FORMICID,        SK_BOWS,           -2),
    APT(SP_FORMICID,        SK_CROSSBOWS,       0),
    APT(SP_FORMICID,        SK_THROWING,       -2),
    APT(SP_FORMICID,        SK_ARMOUR,          3),
    APT(SP_FORMICID,        SK_DODGING,        -1),
    APT(SP_FORMICID,        SK_STEALTH,         3),
    APT(SP_FORMICID,        SK_SHIELDS,         1),
    APT(SP_FORMICID,        SK_TRAPS,           1),
    APT(SP_FORMICID,        SK_UNARMED_COMBAT,  0),
    APT(SP_FORMICID,        SK_SPELLCASTING,   -1),
    APT(SP_FORMICID,        SK_CONJURATIONS,   -1),
    APT(SP_FORMICID,        SK_HEXES,           2),
    APT(SP_FORMICID,        SK_CHARMS,          0),
    APT(SP_FORMICID,        SK_SUMMONINGS,      0),
    APT(SP_FORMICID,        SK_NECROMANCY,      0),
    APT(SP_FORMICID,        SK_TRANSLOCATIONS,  0),
    APT(SP_FORMICID,        SK_TRANSMUTATIONS,  1),
    APT(SP_FORMICID,        SK_FIRE_MAGIC,      0),
    APT(SP_FORMICID,        SK_ICE_MAGIC,       0),
    APT(SP_FORMICID,        SK_AIR_MAGIC,      -2),
    APT(SP_FORMICID,        SK_EARTH_MAGIC,     2),
    APT(SP_FORMICID,        SK_POISON_MAGIC,    3),
    APT(SP_FORMICID,        SK_INVOCATIONS,     2),
    APT(SP_FORMICID,        SK_EVOCATIONS,      2),

Stealth was improved and translocations were set to 0. Translocations are already bad for Formicids so I don't see a point in making them even worse by lowering their aptitudes. Fighting could be set to 1, but I haven't done so yet.

Also, I was experimenting with having their EXP aptitude set to 2. This means they would be the fastest levelers in the game, but difference only adds up to them being about 1 XL ahead due to the level curve. It seemed to fit thematically and gives them a bit more HP and MP.

The reason unarmed was at 0 was because I didn't want Formicids to become too similar to the new Gargoyle race. Ironically, it appears that Gargoyles were recently changed to be much closer to Formicids than I wanted, primarily in the low-hp, high-armour, with earth magic niche.

In terms of changing their HP or AC, I think that requires more testing to figure out. They are kind of fragile right now so I could see it happening.

I also had added a different mutation system: at level 16 and 24 you get to choose a mutation to level up. The choices are: "Antennae, Exoskeleton (+AC), Wings, Poison Resistance". Antennae are already at level 2 by level 16, and exoskeleton starts at level 1. Getting wings to level 2 provides a movement speed bonus. If this system stays I could add a breath/bite attack to it.

Thanks for your advice! I really appreciate comments on their aptitudes and mechanics like yours.

[Bim]

I also had added a different mutation system: at level 16 and 24 you get to choose a mutation to level up. The choices are: "Antennae, Exoskeleton (+AC), Wings, Poison Resistance". Antennae are already at level 2 by level 16, and exoskeleton starts at level 1. Getting wings to level 2 provides a movement speed bonus. If this system stays I could add a breath/bite attack to it.

Am I correct in assuming that you actually get to choose (not that it's just a random choice?) - I know this was suggested before and cripplingly shot down as the feeling amongst devs was that mutations should never be able to be chosen. I have to agree with this in a way, as you'd be able to fill your gaps easily (even with a short list of possibles) - I'd say just let them be chosen by random.

Also, I have to say though this race is looking uber powerful - quick leveling, good apts and highly beneficial mutations are massive buffs and there currently doesn't seem to be enough trade off at the moment. Perhaps taking down all their weapon skills (other than fighting for predatory instinct) would make them into more of a sort of 'ability race' which relied upon their different abilities/mutations to get them through more than pure power. Could be an interesting direction.

[Griever7x]

I'm glad you appreciated my input; I think the aptitudes are looking better now, although I agree with bim on the weapon aptitudes; only the most simple/easy to handle weapons should have a positive aptitude for them.
Short blades alreay is at 1, and they seem to have a big stealth potential, so putting the other weapon aptitudes at -1 and leaving uc at 0 could be a solution.
Crossbows are easier to use than bows, but still not as simple as slings, so they should be at -1; slings are fine as they are. Dodging should be at least at 0 apt while armor should be a bit lower.
Choosing a mutation or two doesn't sound like a bad idea at all, and for an insect it does make sense. They start with innate ac and the digging ability, so the other mutations should further define what type of insectoid you're going to be.
Demonspawn and draconians already get the random mutation thing, so I don't see how adding another race with the same mechanic would add flavor to it.

[Bim]

hoosing a mutation or two doesn't sound like a bad idea at all, and for an insect it does make sense. They start with innate ac and the digging ability, so the other mutations should further define what type of insectoid you're going to be.
Demonspawn and draconians already get the random mutation thing, so I don't see how adding another race with the same mechanic would add flavor to it.

Getting mutations isn't a problem (and a nice gameplay mechanic in my opinion) but choosing mutations (last time it came around) was a huge dev no-no. Maybe they've changed their minds on this (all of the 'THIS WILL NEVER HAPPEN EVER' things have all happened) but I know this was just seen as not something desirable or fitting in with the RL 'randomness' idea.

[Griever7x]

Hmm, I see... Well, in any case, they could still be random, I just thought it was kind of fitting for an insect, as long as it was balanced, could have added flavor

Anyhow, I'd like to try them out, is there a game version or a patch with formicids in?

[pubby]

Also, I have to say though this race is looking uber powerful - quick leveling, good apts and highly beneficial mutations are massive buffs and there currently doesn't seem to be enough trade off at the moment.

Having played a ton of Formicid games I can tell you that they are not all all uber. In fact, they're pretty bad. Melee are one of their harder builds since they're extremely frail and can't use haste, finesse, or berserk. Of course, more playtesting will reveal whether nerfs are appropriate.

I definitely understand where you're coming from though. Considering flavour, it does make sense for insects to use simple weapons and their fists. Still, I'd rather improve those aptitudes rather than weaken the others. For instance, +2 short blades, +1 UC would be fine.

Dodging should be at least at 0 apt while armor should be a bit lower.

This seems like a okay change.

Getting mutations isn't a problem (and a nice gameplay mechanic in my opinion) but choosing mutations (last time it came around) was a huge dev no-no. Maybe they've changed their minds on this (all of the 'THIS WILL NEVER HAPPEN EVER' things have all happened) but I know this was just seen as not something desirable or fitting in with the RL 'randomness' idea.

I would rather remove the new mutations rather than randomize them. There are enough species with random mutations. What was the argument against them though? It seemed to me that choosing a mutation was an interesting and fun decision.

Anyhow, I'd like to try them out, is there a game version or a patch with formicids in?

There is a patch on mantis: https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=7202 (formicid2.patch is the most recent). The aptitudes are slightly outdated though and they lack the new mutations. Also, neil, the guy who runs CSZO, said he could put the branch online for testing. I don't know when that's happening though.

[Griever7x]

Yeah, I agree, it would be a fun and interesting addition; the argument against it was that it would clash with the 'randomness' of roguelikes in general, but it seems a little silly to me
Regarding the aptitudes, not even vampires ( which are one of the best stabbers ) have +2 in short blades, they have +1, so I don't see how an insect race could have +2...
Rather, keep the other weapon schools at 0 and UC at 1, and give them more fighting and dodging? That would make them a bit less squishy and make sense...
By the way, how do I patch my game?

[pubby]

By the way, how do I patch my game?

It's probably easier to just clone off my repo. You need both git and a way to compile it (mingw if on Windows). I think these are the steps:

  Code:

git clone git://gitorious.org/~pubby/crawl/pubby-crawl.git
cd pubby-crawl/crawl-ref/source
git checkout dwants
make

[Bim]

I would rather remove the new mutations rather than randomize them. There are enough species with random mutations. What was the argument against them though? It seemed to me that choosing a mutation was an interesting and fun decision.

The argument against them was (like Griever7x said) that they clash against the 'randomness' of roguelikes - I think this is a fair point as the major issue was that you could plan ahead and use them to cover your weaknesses. If they were all strictly double edged mutations I think this would be more accepted, but I think 'random mutations' is quite a fixed idea. I would keep the mutations in a random form though - I think they always add a lot of interest to any race, and I feel that the 'evolving over time' idea is quite a good one.

If you fancied doing it a fancier way, perhaps you could (and I know this was not allowed for draconians) but perhaps you could have mutations (/evolutions) based on skills? As long as it wasn't '15 stealth = xyz'' then I'm sure it would be looked on more favourably than just choosing a/b/c.

[rosstin]

What if you could choose from various pools of mutations? You get one at random from a list, but you choose the list.

I really like the idea of some kind of queen/drone/soldier/worker classification system, that sounds pretty cool.

[Griever7x]

Just a quick brainstorm

Formicid Ambusher/Scout
1)thin skeletal structure 1 2 3
2)permaFly
3)small -mov delay
4)See Invis

Formicid Drone/Warrior
1)Fangs 1 2 3
2)acidic bite
3)AC boost
4)poison stinger?

Formicid Forager/Worker
1)sustenance 1
2)passive mapping 1 2 3
3)rPois
4)contrary of thin skeletal structure? +str -dex?

They should all develop antennae 1 2 3 as they level up since they are insects.

[red_kangaroo]

If any monster formicids are ever implemented, I'd have some ideas:

Formicid brawler - very fast, attacks with four unarmed attacks
Formicid destroyer - slower, but durable, mostly uses great mace or GSC
Formicid warmaster - fights with two two-handed weapons
Formicid venom mage - Sting, Cure Poison, Mephitic Cloud, maybe Summon Scorpion
Formicid swarmlord - summoner, Summon Swarm, Mass Abjuration, Blink Away, maybe Summon Butterflies
Formicid anthill king - rare, always spawns with a suite of other formicids and soldier ants, nearly always has a shield and some good weapon, can cast spells to buff its suordinates, maybe only in vaults

And as a half-joke:
Formicid suicidal poisoner - Olgreb's Toxic Radiance + Ignite Poison

[galehar]

Am I correct in assuming that you actually get to choose (not that it's just a random choice?) - I know this was suggested before and cripplingly shot down as the feeling amongst devs was that mutations should never be able to be chosen.

Getting mutations isn't a problem (and a nice gameplay mechanic in my opinion) but choosing mutations (last time it came around) was a huge dev no-no.

I don't remember someone suggesting a species with which you can choose a mutation at certain levels, let alone such a suggestion being shot down because it doesn't fit 'RL randomness'. Are you sure you're not confusing it with another vaguely related proposal which is actually completely different or something? And I agree with griever, we have enough species with random mutations, I think a choice would differenciate it better from draconians and demonspawn.

(all of the 'THIS WILL NEVER HAPPEN EVER' things have all happened)

What?

[Griever7x]

Well, good to hear the mechanic isn't atleast unwelcome, I hope the next patch will have the new mutations implemented
Also, I was thinking, arthropods have 6 limbs, so how about a mutation/mechanic that somehow revolves around them having 4 arms?
Maybe they can reach min delay sooner? Wield giant clubs? Less penalty with shields?

[Bim]

Am I correct in assuming that you actually get to choose (not that it's just a random choice?) - I know this was suggested before and cripplingly shot down as the feeling amongst devs was that mutations should never be able to be chosen.

Getting mutations isn't a problem (and a nice gameplay mechanic in my opinion) but choosing mutations (last time it came around) was a huge dev no-no.

I don't remember someone suggesting a species with which you can choose a mutation at certain levels, let alone such a suggestion being shot down because it doesn't fit 'RL randomness'. Are you sure you're not confusing it with another vaguely related proposal which is actually completely different or something? And I agree with griever, we have enough species with random mutations, I think a choice would differenciate it better from draconians and demonspawn.

I distinctly remember (I can't find the topic though) that chosen mutations were not welcomed due to it being able to 'fill the gaps', however, I think the mechanism for getting the choice was different (potion of mutation/Jyiva or demonspawn) so if this is sufficiently different then so be it.

(all of the 'THIS WILL NEVER HAPPEN EVER' things have all happened)
What?

Felids.

[Griever7x]

I have an idea for this species! This would also change slightly its background lore.
What if, in the depths of the caves and tunnels of the dungeon, there inhabited a species of sentient bipedal insects?
What if, through evolution, these insectoids evolved differently between one another?
This would create diversities between them, and violence would arise. Their instinct for survival would push them one against another.
A race of differently evolved insectoids, the Swarm.
They start with the innate ability to dig and create shafts, are good at poison and earth magic, and can dabble in charms, hexes and transmutations.
Their exoskeletons do not offer much in the way of protection, but they are agile, and their outstanding aggressiveness has made them solid fighters.
While their arms are somewhat human-like, they do not possess the full degree of manipulation a human does.
However, they are good at hunting with polearms and slings, since the skirmishes between one another have led them to use more than their fists and mandibles.
Being arthropods, they possess 4 arms. This could mean they can wield a shield with 2 handed weapons ( they can't wield big clubs due to their size, however ).
This advantage is offset somewhat by their less than average (-10%) hp and mp, along with not so outstanding armor proficiency due to their exoskeletons ( they can still wear all kinds of armor ).
Being insects they have all the quirks and features a normal insect would have: their antennaes will grow, they are vulnerable to poisons.
They suffer from stasis as a consequence of countless centuries of tunneling.
Now, with all of the above, I simply expanded on the original concept and tried to make it better. What's next is possibly the final step to add flavor to this species.
As said above, they evolved differently due to survival and adaptation, and wound up fighting one another due to their diversities; this is why I propose they are called Swarm instead of Formicids.
At xl10, their evolutionary genes will kick in, and players will have a choice: spider gene, ant gene, wasp gene.
Spider gene would be stealthy, poisonous and poison resistant, and be able to cast webs. They would gain fangs up untill 3.
Ant gene would be strong, gaining fangs 1 and an acidic bite, and their exoskeletons would harden giving an ac boost. They could also gain better aptitudes with all melee weapons, perhaps.
Wasp gene would swap aptitudes between earth and air magic, gain the ability to fly with increased speed, have a stinger and perhaps see invisible.
I think this is a great idea but I do not know if in practice it will play out nicely, so please tell me your opinions.

[pubby]

Formicids were added to an experimental branch on CSZO for testing. You can use this thread for comments on them.

The great neil has created two new experimental branches on CSZO for play testing: jump attack and formicids! Currently you can play them in CSZO console by logging in, going to trunk, and choosing X for experimental branch. See pubby's post about dwants for details on that branch; sim has one to lair I write this. My branch is jump attack, and webtiles will reflect both of these when CSZO webtiles gets a restart; until then you have to try in console.

[Bloax]

Apparently you can have Antennae:3 (SInv) and still not have SInv. Which is kind of strange.

Edit: And yes, this is without headgear.

[dck]

What happens if a Fo uses crap power silence then shafts himself, does it still make noise?

[pubby]

Apparently you can have Antennae:3 (SInv) and still not have SInv. Which is kind of strange.

Edit: And yes, this is without headgear.

Did you check right after removing headgear? If so, it takes like 10 turns for the antennae to extend back to level 3. I'll add a message to make this a little more clear.

What happens if a Fo uses crap power silence then shafts himself, does it still make noise?

I'd have to check, but probably no noise.

[Implojin]

First and foremost, thanks to pubby for making this patch.

I've just finished playing a game on CSZO's Formicid branch, and I found it to be both fun! and very close to properly balanced.

As a point of comparison to other candidate races: I have previously won a Djinni with all skills at 27, and a 3 rune Lava Orc. I found the mix of Djinni immunities to be hideously unbalanced, and I found the Lava Orc to be HillOrcButStronger. Neither of these races had interesting tradeoffs, nor were they very fun to play.

Formicid is the opposite. Permastasis forces you to shape your entire game around not having access to haste, teleport, blink, or swiftness. Low HP aptitude means that you don't get too much leeway to screw up. As a tradeoff, you get pretty good defenses and the ability to wield a 2-handed weapon with a shield. You can dig at will to create corridors, reposition, or break LOS. You also get an escape ability that allows you to shaft yourself, potentially placing your character in greater danger*. I found Formicids' tradeoffs to be meaningful; they were neither too strong nor too weak. The resultant gameplay was both interesting and Fun.

*Self shaft is a well designed ability and I really like it.

In short, I would enjoy seeing Formicids in trunk in the future.



I typed up some thoughts during the game, and I'll add to them here:

- Formicid defenses are huge. Too huge too early in the case of Armour. After clearing Lair, my character's defenses were somewhere around 30/20/20. This was too much, and the +3 Armour aptitude needs to be lowered. Whether to +2 or +1 I'm not sure, it depends on what other changes are made to the race.

- Dig needs a higher cost. Dig for some small hunger is too powerful. I understand the race's need for an ability like this as they have little else to work with, but I Did Not Have To Think about pressing a-f twice whenever there were soft walls around and I was in danger. Ideally, I would like to see the cost of Formicid Dig changed to something other than hunger. Simply increasing the hunger cost here wouldn't change much, it would just result in more chop-eat tedium.

- I like the -2 HP a lot. It's a good counterpoint to the larger defensive stats, and it sets up the dynamic of the race. Raising this would be a bad idea; too much HP and the Formicid game would change from "Can I handle this fight? Will I need to escape?" towards just being 2h wrecking balls with shields.

- Shield aptitude should probably remain around +1 or 0. Their HP growth is already low, they are likely to be leveling weapon skill more for 2-handed delay, and as they have the whole "2h+shield" gimmick going on you probably don't want to make players feel forced to invest large amounts of experience in a low aptitude skill just to make use of one of the racial draws.

- Dodging seems fine at -1.

- Even with their current +3 armour aptitude, Formicids already feel far more balanced than Dj or LO. The initial try was reasonably close to a good balance point.

- Edit: I don't like the seemingly-random extra 100 aut delay to reactivate Formicid Antennae after removing their helmet. This is a bit of personal preference, but the initial 40 aut just to remove the helmet is already a lot if you're trying to do it to regain SInv for some reason (presumably only as a last resort!) -- 140 aut to regain antenna function is ridiculous.


My character cleared spider, shoals, vaults, and zot:5 with no significant trouble. (And too much experience -- I think the Formicid branch on CSZO may have been split before the midgame XP reductions? It was a relatively old branch that still had Traps skill and was missing many more recent additions.) I would have stopped there, but the game's spectators asked me to try extended to get a sense of Fo play outside of a normal game. Slime (TRJ specifically) was more challenging than usual due to no tele or haste. Abyss was no problem. Pan became very dangerous, as I entered it while still worshiping Okawaru and had a poor array of skills to handle it while under stasis. I escaped a near death situation in Pan, switched to TSO, and went to clear Tar for a weapon blessing. I took the rune from Tar with no trouble, and then splatted to Asmodeus.

It's important to note here that the splat in Geh was entirely my fault. I walked in to Asmodeus' room and took 3 steps into chain hellfires to the face. Had I pulled it properly or summoned Daevas or any of a number of other approaches, it would have been fine.

Extended as Formicid is challenging (obviously due to the Stasis restrictions), but I think it's doable with proper skilling and play.


Here's the morgue: http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/Implojin/morgue-Implojin-20130828-020009.txt

The ttyrecs of the game are on CSZO with the following timestamps:
2013-08-27.12:24:35
2013-08-27.15:16:39
2013-08-28.01:58:49

[pubby]

That post is 10/10 Implojin. Most helpful feedback I've ever read.

I've also received feedback from outside GDD, so I'll summarize what others have said to have it all written down.

Many agree Formicid defenses are too big.
I keep changing my mind about this, but after reading your post I'm at -2 hp, +2 armour, +0 shields. I'm going to test this some more locally.

Almost everyone wants a digging nerf
Now, lots of people have brought up an MP cost or breathe timer. I've become strongly opposed to this because it would promote digging tons of tunnels before getting into fights. Food costs are slightly different, but Implojin hit the nail on the head: they're just tedious.

The second option would be a permanent cost such losing max HP. I tend to hate such costs irrationally and plenty of other players do too. Also, it would encourage Formicids to carry wands of digging or learn the dig spell which is a silly concept. It's certainly an option though, if things come down to it.

Another idea is to increase the noise of digging (all digging) by a fair amount. I am fine with idea, although I'm not sure how much this would improve gameplay. I'll experiment a bit.

Shafting wakes the entire floor up
This is hyperbole, but it will be addressed. Less shafting noise seems fair enough.

Abilities not clearly documented in-game
I will add more text explaining them.

FoFi/FoGl of Okawaru/Ashenzari is popular
This is not really feedback; I just thought it was interesting. Haven't seen any caster or ranged Formicids get far yet.

[dck]

Hey pubby, does the four arms thing mean they get to wield ranged weapons and shields without a penalty?

[Sar]

So Dwants have four arms (that are humanoid enough to wield weapons), but can wear only one pair of gloves and only two rings. Now I'm not saying the should be able to, I'm just wondering, what's the handwave for that?

[pubby]

Hey pubby, does the four arms thing mean they get to wield ranged weapons and shields without a penalty?

Yes. They can also use large rocks.

So Dwants have four arms (that are humanoid enough to wield weapons), but can wear only one pair of gloves and only two rings. Now I'm not saying the should be able to, I'm just wondering, what's the handwave for that?

Lots of people have asked about this. One idea is that their lower hands are more claw-shaped and thus incapable of wearing clothing. Another idea is that they wear both gloves on the two hands that hold their weapon.

[DracheReborn]

FoFi/FoGl of Okawaru/Ashenzari is popular
This is not really feedback; I just thought it was interesting. Haven't seen any caster or ranged Formicids get far yet.

Kind of odd that Oka is so popular. Doesn't stasis block Finesse?

FoVM seems like a good starting background, if only because of the guaranteed Cure Poison (and because VM is strong generally). Unfortunately I just YASD'd mine...

[spudwalt]

Hey, just figured I'd put in my two cents here. My first thought on seeing this species was "Cool, bug people!" They are yet *another* Earth Magic-skilled race (when are we gonna get our natural Ice Mages?), but Earth Magic is pretty cool, so it's a minor complaint only. The idea of wielding big weapons and shields is also pretty cool, though I cringed inwardly at the thought of having to fight a Formicid warmaster dual-wielding triple swords. It's also neat to have another race besides ogres capable of wielding giant clubs (trolls don't count), though obviously the +0 M&F is going to reduce the desirability of that strategy when compared to other weapons.

I also saw the thread for the jumping attack and thought that might be a cool thing to have on formicids (once the various kinks get worked out of it), though so far they're pretty cool already.

I'm a little unclear on the digging ability: is it like the spell, where you create a straight tunnel through rock, or is it more like a boring beetle? Personally, I think the second option makes more sense, given their whole bug people vibe, but it might already be implemented and I haven't picked up on it because I'm unobservant and haven't actually tried using one.

Speaking of, I'd like to try one of these things out myself, but I'm having trouble figuring out how to do that. So far, the only cszo online thing I've found has been webtiles, which doesn't have the Formicid patch as an option yet. Do I have to download something from somewhere?

That poison vulnerability is going to be a bitch in Spider/Snake...

[pubby]

Kind of odd that Oka is so popular. Doesn't stasis block Finesse?

Yes. I suppose heroism is slightly better if you have a shield though, and he can gift a good shield and a good 2-hander. He gives no escape option though, which is why other gods are more helpful.

@spudwalt:
Thanks for the comments. Jumping should definitely be looked into, but I'd going to wait until both are accepted by the devs.

Digging is like the wand currently. I think this is for the best though, as it's harder to use than boring-beetle style.

Speaking of, I'd like to try one of these things out myself, but I'm having trouble figuring out how to do that. So far, the only cszo online thing I've found has been webtiles, which doesn't have the Formicid patch as an option yet. Do I have to download something from somewhere?

They're on CSZO webtiles now. The server needed a restart, which happened last night.

[spudwalt]

Okay, now that I've run a few Formicids of my own I have a bit more to say on them:

* The retractable antennae is nice for wearing a helmet and such, but they also retract when you put on a hat, which shouldn't interfere with the first two levels of the mutation. Is there a way to change that? 'Cause having the ability to sense things around corners/through walls is pretty neat. If it was up to me, I would have just given them normal antennae and have them eventually miss out entirely on a head slot, though I suppose that would slightly impair their design as a high-defense/low-hp race.
* Speaking of, I thought it was a little odd that bug people would be more skilled at armor than dodging; I expected them to be a more nimble, evasive race rather than something that focuses on reducing damage. However, I haven't had too many problems with the aptitudes so far, so I guess they're balanced as they stand. Low HP kinda sucks, but they've still got more than spriggans and felids.
* Innate immunity to giant eyeballs/slowing/teleportitis/teleport traps is pretty cool. I'd say the loss of a couple of buffs/panic buttons is a fair trade, especially since they still have a couple of escape techniques of their own. It does make getting across water annoying when you haven't found any source of flight yet, though sometimes you can just dig through the walls and get around that way.
* I haven't actually had to shaft myself yet, though there was a point where I thought I might have to when I ran into a bunch of killer bees. I have made use of their digging ability, though; a couple times I made shortcuts, a couple times I dug myself a bottleneck for using Conjure Flame/Mephitic Cloud. Thematically speaking, I think their digging ability would work better as a boring beetle-style thing where they chew through a single tile of rock at a time, though I'm not sure what sort of hunger cost/duration would work best for balancing the ability. While duplicating the Dig spell seems odd, the ability has saved my butt a couple times, so I guess it works.
* Ability to wield heavier weaponry than other normal-sized races is neat. I haven't gotten a chance to wield a heavy weapon and a shield, but I am using a giant spiked club in my current run, so that's been fun. It's kind of a shame their -2 Throwing aptitude reduces their effectiveness with large rocks, though they'd have trouble throwing them anyways since they don't have the same sort of strength as an ogre or a troll.
* It also seems odd that a species with innate stasis has a +0 Translocations aptitude. I would have put it at -1 or so to work with the flavor more, but stuff like Shroud of Golubria and Apportation are still things that are useful.
* Would their extra arms be the sort of thing that could give them some auxiliary Unarmed Combat attacks? Maybe something along the lines of an octopode's tentacle-slap?
* So far I've only tried Venom Mages, so I don't know how other Formicid builds play out. It's been pretty good so far: Cure Poison helps with the various bugs/snakes that manage to get in a lucky shot, and I've got Vehumet giving me spells in other schools so I can branch out of Poison Magic when it starts becoming less helpful later on. I did see another guy on the CSZO server who had a level 24-ish FoTm running around in Spider:5, so I guess that can happen.

Anyhoo, that's my take on Formicids so far. My latest FoVM of Vehument just made it to the Lair, so dying after this point will probably mean I screwed up somewhere.

[Implojin]

I just finished a 3 rune FoTm of Chei.

More feedback:

Spectators were constantly asking about 4-hand extra UC aux attacks, 4-handed Blade Hands, 4x rings, Unarmed with a shield and no shield delay, etc. I don't think that Formicids need any of those things or that they would be a good idea to add (UC has always been very strong) -- but there should probably be some kind of flavour justification and text about this if it ends up in trunk. People *will* ask.

You may want to keep a close eye on not making this race too difficult to play. I have seen one greatplayer say that he got tired of splatting Formicids and went to do something else for the day. At the time of my game, it looked like most players were not getting very far with Formicid. If greatplayers find this race difficult, it may not end up being very approachable for the majority of crawl players. More input from other players would obviously help here.

CSZO has been updated to the +2 armour and +0 shield aptitudes, but I did not adequately test those as I was trying to see how the race worked with a different earlygame skillset.

+3 poison and +1 transmutations means that spiderform comes online very quickly at the start of the game. My earlygame on this character was significantly easier than on the FoFi, even despite taking Chei. It became much harder around midgame, mostly due to taking Chei.

-1 dodging still seems fine as Tm. More would probably make spiderform on this race too strong.

I still had too much experience at the end of this game relative to where it should have been in current trunk. It would probably be a good idea to apply the XP reduction commits (at minimum) to the Formicid branch so that the difficulty balance of the race isn't being measured against total experience values that are no longer in the game.

morgue: http://dobrazupa.org/morgue/Implojin/mo ... 052735.txt
ttyrec: http://dobrazupa.org/ttyrec/Implojin/20 ... ttyrec.bz2

Thanks again for creating this race. The permastasis conduct is fun to try to play around.

[Mankeli]

Tried it once but the lag was just too much to handle . I hope Formicids will be included in a downloadable version as well!

[Galefury]

I haven't tried them, but I have a comment: I don't think retractable antennae are a good idea. Slot restrictions are not the end of the world, and it seems pointless to change the rules of the mutation just for the sake of avoiding the slot restriction. The race already has enough special things, just give them normal antennae.

Also, I don't think there's any real problem with adding MP cost or breath timer for digging if you want to make it worse. Breath timer is probably not so good, because it's annoying when not in combat. The usual reasons for digging out large parts of levels don't apply due to permastasis, but stat drain is nice if you think it needs something on a longer timescale that limits people from overusing the ability. Strength drain would be most thematic IMO, but very annoying because you would have to check carrying capacity before using it to run away from things, so maybe dex drain would be good. Something like 1d2, 1d4 if you want it to be able to get through 2 sustab rings.

[jejorda2]

I think a chance of stat drain or max hp loss would work as an added cost for digging, as opposed to guaranteed loss.

[spudwalt]

Eeeeeh, I'm not so sure on giving their digging ability a max HP loss; formicids already have lower HP than normal, and that would give it the feel of a last-resort technique, which they already have in the self-shaft. A stat drain I can see working okay, though my personal preference is still for a boring beetle-esque ability.

[dck]

I'm wondering, what's the excuse for blocking Fo from getting swiftness? Because if you're not familiar with just how broken swift is it seems strange that Fo aren't allowed to learn the spell when normal stasis doesn't even block it, and could lead to some confusion.
Not that I think they should be able to learn it (it'd be pretty bad if they could in fact since swift makes things pretty boring) but I'm wondering about what you're going to tell people when they come asking about why their book of Air is being racist to their FoAEs.

[Speleothing]

I haven't tried them, but I have a comment: I don't think retractable antennae are a good idea. Slot restrictions are not the end of the world, and it seems pointless to change the rules of the mutation just for the sake of avoiding the slot restriction. The race already has enough special things, just give them normal antennae.

Indeed, I was a little upset when my Aquirement gifted a helmet that I didn't want.

[MoogleDan]

Same question as dck had, only for berserk. Would it be possible to just grant the non-haste aspects of berkserk? I could've used that Might and +50% HP in there...

[dck]

Normal stasis blocks berserk and this is the stasis conduct race.

[jejorda2]

Formicids in porcupine form can still dig. Is that intended?

[pubby]

Sorry for the late reply and many thanks for the comments.

I've made two changes at the moment: swiftness is now blocked by all stasis, and digging now digs out walls adjacent to you. Also, the branch should be updated to trunk features.

I think a chance of stat drain or max hp loss would work as an added cost for digging, as opposed to guaranteed loss.

I tested this out. It was one of the better ideas for digging nerf, but kinda annoying.

I haven't tried them, but I have a comment: I don't think retractable antennae are a good idea. Slot restrictions are not the end of the world, and it seems pointless to change the rules of the mutation just for the sake of avoiding the slot restriction. The race already has enough special things, just give them normal antennae.

They were originally like this, but there was a really awkward transition from antennae 2 to 3 as it knocked off your hat. Really made me angry when I found a good hat early on, but the moment I turned XL 16 I couldn't wear it anymore. But also, the retractable antennae make the equipment decision more interesting. It's not obvious if you should wear headgear or not, and I like that.

Would it be possible to just grant the non-haste aspects of berkserk? I could've used that Might and +50% HP in there...

No, because berserk would also an important balancing aspect: the slow status after finishing. It would be too good of an ability.

Formicids in porcupine form can still dig. Is that intended?

I don't know, should it be? I allowed shafting in forms because it made forms very penalizing otherwise. Digging was allowed due to consistency, but both of these could be a mistake.