Formicids (Was: Dwants)

[Siegurt]

Lucy also seems reasonable to use for a Formicid to me (because uncontrolled god-blink is better than no blink at all) As does TSO (because he's a decent all around problem solver in extended for just about anyone, particularly those who specialize in melee combat) As does Makhelb (because healing, ranged attacks and powerful summons are good things to have, particularly when you don't have some of the movement and hasting capacity that other races do)

Kiku, Veh, Jiyva, Fedhas, and Sif would all be about the same as with any other race, Oka, Trog, Nemlex, and Chei all seem worse for Fo than for other races.

[spudwalt]

Yeah, Trog would suck, considering you can't berserk, but I guess you could still use Hand of Trog or Brothers in Arms. How are Okawaru and Nemelex worse for Formicids, though? They've got +2 evocations for Nemelex, and Okawaru helps them do shield+2-hander (though I guess losing Finesse is kinda big).

Do spells like Passage of Golubria or Phase Shift work for Formicids, or does their stasis block them, too?

[BlackSheep]

Do spells like Passage of Golubria or Phase Shift work for Formicids, or does their stasis block them, too?

Phase Shift and Passage of Golubria both work for formicids.

[Siegurt]

Yeah, Trog would suck, considering you can't berserk, but I guess you could still use Hand of Trog or Brothers in Arms. How are Okawaru and Nemelex worse for Formicids, though? They've got +2 evocations for Nemelex, and Okawaru helps them do shield+2-hander (though I guess losing Finesse is kinda big).

Do spells like Passage of Golubria or Phase Shift work for Formicids, or does their stasis block them, too?

Yes to both of those spells working. And Yes, that's why Oka is worse for Formicids than for other races, (And in extended, it's quite possible to train those last 5 points so heroism becomes less useful, whereas finesse is never not-useful for anyone who attacks with a weapon)

Nemelex is slightly worse for Formicids for similar reasons (Some cards are not useful; Again in extended, summon and attack cards become less useful, whereas escape cards usually retain the same value, and Formicids can't use all of them)

[spudwalt]

Well, looks like I finally have a reason to use Passage of Golubria.

[BlackSheep]

Formicids can also speed up by using spider form.

[Sar]

For what it's worth I won a FoBe in experimental branch, and I found it worked fairly well. Sure you can't zerk but Trog's Hand is still good and Brothers in Arms still rip everything you want to be ripped. Also Trog's G(S)C gifts are pretty remarkable. I got a vamp one in Lair and it carried me through the game easily.

[BlackSheep]

Formicids can also speed up by using spider form.

I just noticed that a Formicid in spider form wearing a ring of poison resistance still has poison vulnerability. Should they get double the penalty like that?

[BlackSheep]

Please don't turn this into a Chei-wars thread. If you want to debate the merits of the god or discuss ways to improve Chei, start a new thread.

[galehar]

Please don't turn this into a Chei-wars thread. If you want to debate the merits of the god or discuss ways to improve Chei, start a new thread.

Done.

[1010011010]

FoVm^Chei got to and was comfortable in lair, until I died to the first hydra, "one more hit should kill" syndrome. A lucky Wiz ring in D5 but no rPois for most of it. plenty of conj, poison and invocation, decent defensive and weapon skill. Translocation would be nice as a cheibrodite but step from time is nice as a formicid.

also, Fomicid can't beserk even though chei would only allow the strength buff.

[nordetsa]

Oka, Trog, Nemlex, and Chei all seem worse for Fo than for other races.

Even with heroism alone I think Oka is a solid choice for Fo-plus he gives you armor and weapon.

[WalkerBoh]

I still think +2 exp apt is pretty ridiculous (not sure Fo need another thing to differentiate them, and +1 exp is already quite good). I also 100% agree with whoever was saying poison vulnerability is mostly just a hassle (increased resting). That's more of a commentary on how poison works than on Fo though. I love the dig/shaft/stasis dynamic, and really approve of the species as a whole. Just a couple things need to be polished up, but it seems very good overall.

Also, is shafting disallowed in Hell? I looked through 4tharraofdagon's winning FoFi log and it looks to me like he shafted heavily in the Hell branches. If it is disallowed for some reason, I think that is kind of silly. Not being able to haste/tele is already quite a big penalty in the Hells, I don't see anything wrong with being able to speed up floors 1-6, which are mostly tedious anyways.

[and into]

Oka, Trog, Nemlex, and Chei all seem worse for Fo than for other races.

Even with heroism alone I think Oka is a solid choice for Fo-plus he gives you armor and weapon.

Sure, but the claim that Fo get less from Oka than other species (specifically, Fo do not get finesse) is true. Oka is still perfectly viable I'm sure. Only Fo__ of Chei sounds like it would be extremely hard, but I think that's fine.

[Steel Neuron]

I've been out of Crawl for months, just wanted to say the mere idea of Formicids brought me back to it.

I love them. Not much more to say. Brb play some more formicid.

[tompliss]

Oka, Trog, Nemlex, and Chei all seem worse for Fo than for other races.

Even with heroism alone I think Oka is a solid choice for Fo-plus he gives you armor and weapon.

Sure, but the claim that Fo get less from Oka than other species (specifically, Fo do not get finesse) is true. Oka is still perfectly viable I'm sure. Only Fo__ of Chei sounds like it would be extremely hard, but I think that's fine.

I don't understand.

Fo's stasis already prevent haste/swiftness, so kitting is clearly reduced to a really low level, so Chei only bring her slowness to the whole.
Step From time even give you a TP-like ability you could not have without her (or the few similar god-ability(ies?)).
Even more, the stats bonus coupled to the high fo's Stealth skill let you handle threats nearly the way you want, wearing heavier armor than a stabber while staying stealthy, doesn't it ?

[sanka]

I don't understand.

Fo's stasis already prevent haste/swiftness, so kitting is clearly reduced to a really low level, so Chei only bring her slowness to the whole.

Most characters has a simple option to avoid unwanted fights: walk away. Chei worshipers do not have this option. Since fights you rather want to avoid is quite common in crawl, Chei worshipers usually want to use some other option.

Stealth is good, but not reliable, and step from time is very expensive if that is the sole escape option for every single encounter where you do not want to fight. I guess it's possible to win with a Fo of Chei, just I guess wining without a god would be easier.

[dck]

Hey, has wand acq been changed for Fo so that they don't get sticks of tele and haste?

[tompliss]

You want them :
You can TP ennemies away, and haste your allies

[dck]

That sounds completely worth not having much greater chances to have a stick of HW.

[BlackSheep]

The primary driver of acquirement has been: can the item be used. Even if it can only be used suboptimally, those wands can still be used.

[pubby]

I ran into a nasty bug though: When going with Oka and getting finesse online I get constantly the message "you cannot use finesse because of your stasis". I get this message multiple times per turn so it is making this character unplayable. I've seen others play Okawaru games so this is probably already known so I didn't open a ticket in Mantis. Inform me, if this isn't the case, please. Version crawl_tiles-0.14-a0-788-g14b720c.

This _might_ have been fixed. If you still have the save, could you update to latest trunk and see if the message still gets spammed?

Also, is shafting disallowed in Hell?

You can shaft all you want in hell.

Hey, has wand acq been changed for Fo so that they don't get sticks of tele and haste?

Not currently.

[Siegurt]

You can shaft all you want in hell.

Somehow, this just sounds dirty.

[dck]

Yo pubby, how come dwants have -2 throwing? They can still chuck ruks perfectly fine with zero skill which is more than enough in the early-mid game, so it doesn't stop them from doing that and later on I feel it screws a bit with needle stabbing for... well, no reason I can see.
Besides if they are the third race allowed to chuck ruks I don't see why you'd want to make offensive throwing a bit more obviously good for them, although a buff to throwing would not be mainly in benefit of that but needle stabbing.

[Hirsch I]

not sure if this is bug or intended, but I'm playing FoAK, and the bend space ability works normally.

[spudwalt]

I figured bend space works because Lugonu is the god of the Abyss, where translocations/stasis just kinda fizzle. It's a divine ability given by the god of "not even stasis can protect you now!".

[Hirsch I]

Awesome. so, Lucy gives the best scape options for Fo, right now, doesn't it?
and you can even search the abyss for some stuff (i got an amulet of warding), cuz the anttenae lets you escape from any threat...
it's fun.

[Siegurt]

Yeah, I just assumed it worked for the same reasons that bend SPAAACE works with the amulet on, or why trog's regen works on a DD, because a god trumps mortal limitations.

Also because it makes FoAK much more interesting.

[Hirsch I]

yes it does.
as does [insert nice 2H weapon] of distortion and shield.
I am having lots of fun. never tought this would make into trunk.

[BlackSheep]

One thing I like about formicids-- you can use teleport traps to ditch monsters from the start.

[spudwalt]

Yeah, teleport traps are cool. I ran into a player ghost and lured him into a teleport trap. No more ghost problems for most of the rest of the level.

[Sandman25]

Don't do it in ZoT5. Nothing worse than OoF, Ancient Lich and Klown (which you lured into the teleportation trap earlier) between you and stairs when you are retreating from other dangerous monsters.

[BlackSheep]

One thing is worse: dying.

[pubby]

Yo pubby, how come dwants have -2 throwing? They can still chuck ruks perfectly fine with zero skill which is more than enough in the early-mid game, so it doesn't stop them from doing that and later on I feel it screws a bit with needle stabbing for... well, no reason I can see.
Besides if they are the third race allowed to chuck ruks I don't see why you'd want to make offensive throwing a bit more obviously good for them, although a buff to throwing would not be mainly in benefit of that but needle stabbing.

Well, I imagine it's rather hard to use a blowgun when all you have are spiracles!

Anyway, the reason throwing is -2 is to make crossbows competitive with large rocks. I like the idea of using crossbow+shield, and I think it would be a shame if that play-style was completely outclassed. Needles are fun too, but there are other species which can do that already.

not sure if this is bug or intended, but I'm playing FoAK, and the bend space ability works normally.

Intended. Passage of golubria works too.

[duvessa]

Yo pubby, how come dwants have -2 throwing? They can still chuck ruks perfectly fine with zero skill which is more than enough in the early-mid game, so it doesn't stop them from doing that and later on I feel it screws a bit with needle stabbing for... well, no reason I can see.
Besides if they are the third race allowed to chuck ruks I don't see why you'd want to make offensive throwing a bit more obviously good for them, although a buff to throwing would not be mainly in benefit of that but needle stabbing.

Well, I imagine it's rather hard to use a blowgun when all you have are spiracles!

Do they have bladders

[Hirsch I]

If Mummies and Gargoyles can use a blowgun, I think every other species should get +5.

[dck]

Pubby these guys are mad cool mate, gj.
Although one thing I forgot to mention is that I'm not sure the rPois- is achieving its intended effect. It was dangerous in a couple of places because well, you need two sources to have rPois+ and stop parrows and some bolts from murdering you but the vulnerability was most noticeable during the game due to making me rest a lot (although during the worst part I had a tla) and little more.

[MrPlanck]

... but the vulnerability was most noticeable during the game due to making me rest a lot (although during the worst part I had a tla) and little more.

After some more testing, I agree with this take on poison vulnerability. In most cases, it is not a big deal during a fight, but leads to a lot of key-mashing to rest after the fight.

Really liked the 2H+large shield combo, and should have won my most recent game (but made one too many poor decisions in Pan).

[Hirsch I]

well, I was obliterated by poison in 9 of 10 games I played as Fo. killed me a lot more than Stasis.
but I guess that is just me being a shitty player.

[Tristian]

Just a thought here... Since they have four arms, shouldn't they be able to wear 4 rings?
After all, octopodes with 8 arms wear 8 rings.

[whitmo]

^ Good suggestion on the multiple rings!

One fun option I've been experimenting with is formicid staff-berserkers, since they can wield one-handed with a shield. Lots of artifact lajatang gifts, nice!

[Zammy]

Just a thought here... Since they have four arms, shouldn't they be able to wear 4 rings?
After all, octopodes with 8 arms wear 8 rings.

4 rings would be too good. But maybe a second set of gloves?

[dpeg]

Four rings should be out, I think. The species has enough slots as is. However, another set of gloves is a nice idea because it plays so well on the six legs of insects. If you really wanted to, you could say that they wear the rings on their antennas.

[Siegurt]

Four rings should be out, I think. The species has enough slots as is. However, another set of gloves is a nice idea because it plays so well on the six legs of insects. If you really wanted to, you could say that they wear the rings on their antennas.

OTOH I've always had trouble picturing an ant-human wearing boots, which formicids can, I would give them two sets of gloves, but no boots

[Sar]

Just give them two "strong" arms to prevent inevitable 4 ring questions.

[dck]

A single arm and a giant beard.
one of the gloves goes on the beard.

[Sar]

dwarfmountainant

[galehar]

Four rings should be out, I think. The species has enough slots as is. However, another set of gloves is a nice idea because it plays so well on the six legs of insects. If you really wanted to, you could say that they wear the rings on their antennas.

This would allow ring swapping with cursed gloves. Which would be a good thing in case of a second glove slot. Otherwise, you'd want to be able to differentiate your ring hands to wear-id gloves on your ringless hands. Which would be clumsy and boring.

[tompliss]

Oh, little thing about the Formicid's entry in the wiki :
when given the choice between ranged weapons (so for Hunter and AM), formicids can choose large rocks, right ?
shouldn't it be put in the articale, as for ogres

Ogre hunters are given a choice of large rocks instead of javelins.

Ps: I mean, given how nice FoAM are, with their Large rocks to kill the early nemesis (yeah, adders, I talk about you), their book of hexes (oh, look, a nice bonus), and the fact that they can play the stealthy assassin (killing with stealthy 50kg rocks).

[nago]

Playing some other Fo and I've just lost one early on.
I was on D:4 and I had spent my only heal wounds to survive a snake poison (whose attack btw did almost nothing). One kobold enters in LOS, the first action is to poison me with his blowgun. I'm immediately on red poison status, I kill him without taking more damage, but with no curing (I hadn't found any yet) or heal wounds avaiable I'm doomed to an unfair death.

I believe Fo should really start with a couple of healing pots, to avoid this unavoidable deaths, or even better to get a more flavorued and working pois- mut.