Proposed unrandart: Vow of Silence

[ackack]

I posted this on the dev wiki under unrandart weapon brainstorm but thought I'd throw it up here as well.

Vow of Silence: proposal for a cursed +15/+15 gsc of speed with a small (radius 2?) permanent aura of silence. Clearly as a pure weapon the best you'll ever find, but it cannot be removed (on IRC amethyst mentioned potentially bad interaction with moths of suppression) and you sacrifice scrolls, spells and active god abilities forever to wield it. As an unrandart would be pre-id'd, and as cursed would generate the Really wield this? prompt, but might want to call more attention to the situation.

Having it be a giant spiked club obviously limits it to trolls and ogres. But I think that's okay. For non-casters, I feel giving up god abilities and scrolls is already a pretty substantial move. Anybody who actually casts spells with some regularity is really unlikely to find this weapon appealing imo, so might as well make it the meanest possible base type.

edit: Wielding this thing makes killing mummies pretty harrowing.

[mumra]

Two problems:

1) The idea of a weapon you can never unwield under any circumstances that cuts off more than half the features of the game is ... how can I put this ... no, words utterly fail me on this one.

2) There are still some marginal ways that even that wouldn't work quite right, namely you could get intentionally polymorphed by a monster with a wand so the weapon is melded, cancelling the silence aura and allowing you to read ?rc.

[ackack]

Two problems:

1) The idea of a weapon you can never unwield under any circumstances that cuts off more than half the features of the game is ... how can I put this ... no, words utterly fail me on this one.

I don't see the problem. Obviously it's a pretty extreme decision, but that's an extremely damaging weapon. And there are already safeguards that would make unintentionally wielding the weapon very unlikely, so somebody would be choosing to do it consciously.

2) There are still some marginal ways that even that wouldn't work quite right, namely you could get intentionally polymorphed by a monster with a wand so the weapon is melded, cancelling the silence aura and allowing you to read ?rc.

If it is only extremely difficult and unreliable to unwield the weapon instead of actually impossible, that is good enough for me.

[mumra]

I don't see the problem. Obviously it's a pretty extreme decision, but that's an extremely damaging weapon. And there are already safeguards that would make unintentionally wielding the weapon very unlikely, so somebody would be choosing to do it consciously.

No matter how many warnings we add in saying "are you really really REALLY REALLY sure y/n", someone will still manage to wield this thing and break their game.

There is no reason any sane player in their right mind would even want to wield this knowing what it does, so it would purely exist as a cruel trap for people who just answer 'y' to every prompt.

If it is only extremely difficult and unreliable to unwield the weapon instead of actually impossible, that is good enough for me.

What's the point of having something that is possible but only through extremely annoying and scummy methods? Might as well just have an 'unwield' option. Oh wait we already have one of those, so why block it off in the first place.

[Galefury]

You can actually zap yourself with wand of poly now.

[njvack]

1) The idea of a weapon you can never unwield under any circumstances that cuts off more than half the features of the game is ... how can I put this ...

... actually interesting, at least to me. Probably terrible, but certainly interesting.

2) There are still some marginal ways that even that wouldn't work quite right, namely you could get intentionally polymorphed by a monster with a wand so the weapon is melded, cancelling the silence aura and allowing you to read ?rc.

?RC should probably not uncurse melded items.

Anyhow: I think this would work better as a silence aura surrounding the weapon even when it's not wielded or carried. Needing to drop the weapon and move two spaces to read scrolls or cast spells is already a big drawback.

It'd be more "fun," then, if it were a normal-sized weapon -- so maybe that monster you're next to picks it up and the silence aura follows you anyhow.

[mumra]

Devs have generally gone to great lengths to prevent players being able to do *anything* that can permanently break their game (e.g. destroying or losing runes / the orb) so I think adding an unrand explicitly designed to do just that would be directly contrary to design principles.

However the idea of a (non-cursed) item with a permanent aura was in fact something I suggested in another thread, although I think mine was a stasis aura. Even that didn't seem like a popular idea, and silence seems much worse. No matter how much damage a weapon does, scrolls and god abilities can actually save your life. Also even if the item isn't cursed to begin with, mummy death curses could cause a significant problem...

[ackack]

No matter how many warnings we add in saying "are you really really REALLY REALLY sure y/n", someone will still manage to wield this thing and break their game.

Lots of people do dumb things in almost every aspect of the game. I don't see that as an argument against the game.

I see you replied while I was writing this. The kind of game-breaking you're referencing is completely different, as with something like losing the Orb you're talking actual logical impossibility of winning as opposed to (possibly?) increased difficulty.

There is no reason any sane player in their right mind would even want to wield this knowing what it does

Sure there's a reason: it is the best pure damage weapon you'll ever find. A class that isn't casting spells at all is giving up active god abilities and scrolls, which is indeed a big
sacrifice, but one that could at least plausibly be compensated for by slaughtering at extreme speed.

What's the point of having something that is possible but only through extremely annoying and scummy methods? Might as well just have an 'unwield' option. Oh wait we already have one of those, so why block it off in the first place.

You block it off because it a) makes a weapon like this feasible instead of gamebreakingly powerful, which b) gives you an interesting decision. The idea that this would be completely untenable because there's some zany (even then not cost- or risk-free) method that might unwield it seems very limiting to me.

[njvack]

I liked the stasis aura idea. (IIRC, that would have been the standard amulet of stasis, right?) But hey, it's me

It'd need to be noncursable. And I'd forgotten that god abilities are also silenceable -- so you're right; there's no build for which this would even be remotely a good item.

@minmay: dragonslayer?

[Galefury]

It's a DoomRL thing.

[Igxfl]

What if you put it on a throwable weapon, say, a +15/+15 spear {good brand, silence aura, uncursable}, so that players can chuck it away when they need to read or cast something? This actually seems like a risk some characters would be reasonably able to take, and might lead to some interesting tactical options. You'd have to be careful about tough monsters picking it up and becoming mini-Mennas, and if you get surrounded in a tight space you probably can't throw the spear far enough to unsilence yourself. On the other hand, it's not necessarily a death sentence if you suddenly need to read ?fog or ?tele.

[rebthor]

What if you put it on a throwable weapon, say, a +15/+15 spear {good brand, silence aura, uncursable}, so that players can chuck it away when they need to read or cast something? This actually seems like a risk some characters would be reasonably able to take, and might lead to some interesting tactical options. You'd have to be careful about tough monsters picking it up and becoming mini-Mennas, and if you get surrounded in a tight space you probably can't throw the spear far enough to unsilence yourself. On the other hand, it's not necessarily a death sentence if you suddenly need to read ?fog or ?tele.

Or you could throw it at that gMummy and totally stop him while you get out of sight? There's a reason that silence surrounds the PC when cast and it not smite or beam targeted.

[qoala]

I like completeness of information, so here's some counter points playing devil's advocate.

If the weapon were of holy wrath, I think it's immune to all sources of curse. With a name evocative of monastic traditions, it could certainly fit the brand. Medieval times associated maces with the priesthood, though crawl seems to favor long blades for our holies (and staves for the eradicated priests). It's plusses might need to be downgraded as "+15 [good base type] of holy wrath" might be a bit too good for endgame, even with the aura. Also, is there any way to give an unrand a permanent aura regardless of wield-state (otherwise it's not particularly negative) besides copying the orb position code? Because that sounds horrible.

As for god abilities, nemelex can still be invoked while silenced. Of course, this counteracts any semblance of theme from the previous point. So instead of being useless for all builds, it's maybe usable by exactly one build.

For my opinion on the proposal?
None of the above points fully address the main problems. I'm dubious of a permanent silence aura item for the same reasons other people are voicing better than I can.

[prozacelf]

Medieval times associated maces with the priesthood, though crawl seems to favor long blades for our holies

Swords and in some cases spears are generally pretty typical choices for armed angels in artwork and mythology and such. And if I'm not mistaken, the Crawl quote in the eveningstar description describes the historical motive for associating mace type weapons with the priesthood.

[evilmike]

Bishops in medieval times did actually participate in wars, but they weren't any different from typical knights in this sense. They would've used swords and spears just as often as any other feudal lord.

[nicolae]

Bishops in medieval times did actually participate in wars, but they weren't any different from typical knights in this sense. They would've used swords and spears just as often as any other feudal lord.

IIRC, the explanation for bishops using maces is that they were forbidden from bloodshed, but maces don't draw blood when they kill. Heated blades were also popular during torture sessions, to cauterize wounds before blood was shed. Apparently the medieval conception of God was an extremely literal sort of deity.

[reaver]

the explanation for bishops using maces is that they were forbidden from bloodshed, but maces don't draw blood when they kill. Heated blades were also popular during torture sessions.

So basically, bishops could only use weapons that are good against hydras.

[prozacelf]

Of course, priests of, say, Beogh or Okawaru are not going to have any qualms about bloodshed.

[evilmike]

Bishops in medieval times did actually participate in wars, but they weren't any different from typical knights in this sense. They would've used swords and spears just as often as any other feudal lord.

IIRC, the explanation for bishops using maces is that they were forbidden from bloodshed, but maces don't draw blood when they kill. Heated blades were also popular during torture sessions, to cauterize wounds before blood was shed. Apparently the medieval conception of God was an extremely literal sort of deity.

Somehow I have the feeling that killing someone with a flanged club is going to cause bloodshed, not that I've ever tried it myself...

[jejorda2]

I've heard (from reenactors, so who can say if they have any credibility) that it was specifically "drawing blood" that was prohibited, and that knights during the crusades would carry maces to fight with on Sundays. Cutting was drawing blood, but smashing wasn't, independent how how much blood flowed.

[xzanthius]

The same reason the priests in the inquisitions got so creative (prohibited from using edged weapons)... something about 'spilling blood'.

I'm not sure about never being able to remove the weapon. Maybe mutagetic (though Mummies are immune), maybe makes you vulnerable to magic (better get close to that caster!), Maybe makes you blind (haha!) or only see whats in your circle of silence, or alerts all the monsters on the level that you are wielding it. In my opinion there should be a major reason not to use a weapon like this all the time... something other than giving you the chance to fully know which skills you will be training for the rest of the game.

[Utis]

I've heard (from reenactors, so who can say if they have any credibility) that it was specifically "drawing blood" that was prohibited, and that knights during the crusades would carry maces to fight with on Sundays. Cutting was drawing blood, but smashing wasn't, independent how how much blood flowed.

Those reenactors ... I'm truely absolutely fascinated by this ... Well, this thing about priests, blodshed and maces is a modern myth, whose origins have probably something to do with D&D. Now, besides the fact that there is no historical or philological evidence for this, that myth has the obvious problem that maces would cause laceration. So, what is the response? Is the myth despelled? No, an addendum to the rule is invented on the spot ... I'm speechless.

So, about maces with spikes or attached blades ... I'm sure those were okay for Sunday-knights because it's "drawing blood" only if it litterally happens with the drawing motion of a knife like instrument. No, wait, that would allow for axes and for stabbing ... Soooooooooo, how about this: They were prohibited from "drawing blood", unless the main portion of the damage was from blunt impact.

Those wacky, stupid medieval types. Completely litterally minded.

[xzanthius]

I believe that the idea for Priests not using edged weapons was inspired from the Spanish Inquisition (not sure about the other ones) where priests were specifically forbidden to 'draw blood'. One can only imagine the bloody mess they made with their other instruments of torture. There might have been other militant Christian cults with the same tenet.

I believe that the Priests of D&D were based very loosely off these zealots. The weapon restriction also serving to help the fighter class distinguish itself.

[Siegurt]

Demigods would not mind invocaitons being silenced, and you can still evoke things in a silence aura (rods/wands/rings of blinking/cloak of darkness)

So a non-spellcasting, non-invoking build that didn't need scrolls for escape would probably do just fine even with a cursed silence aura.

Although jfyi, you cannot pray in a silence aura either so if you did have a god that required sacrifices you'd be an unhappy camper.

As an alternative you could make it cursed, with a 'break vow of silence' ability which would destroy it (thereby un-wielding it), if you wielded it and *really* needed to break your vow (Also I like that idea because it amuses me)

Also I don't know of any other randarts that come with a "destroy this item" button, which would make it cool

[giygas]

I can draw blood without a knife or a club or an axe...just give me a paper and pencil.

[tasonir]

At the risk of being on topic, how about this:

+10 +10 GSC of speed, curse, contam, -cast

Bring the bonuses down slightly but still very high, make it curse itself and cause contam to make removing it tricky, and prevent casting. If desired, you could also add -Tele, but I think that might be a bit overkill. I'd rather see the hit/dam bonuses cut down slightly before adding -tele.

Some secondary bonuses like resists or +ac/ev could be added to give it more flavor, but I haven't included any because of balance concerns, it's already powerful. If any, MR would probably make the most sense, given how anti-magic the item is. Silence aura could be done, but I think just silencing the wielder makes more sense. You're taking the vow of silence, not everyone else.

[njvack]

with {contam} you don't need {curse} -- the glow is way more important than one ?RC.

[Siegurt]

Although -CAST isn't quite as extreme as silenced

[and into]

Resurrecting thread on the basis of ackack's recently posted win with a TrMo with a "vow of silence" conduct throughout the whole game. (A very noteworthy achievement!)

What makes this unrandart interesting is the silence aura—take that away and it is not so special, in my opinion. But the idea of permanently affecting your game so strongly by wielding a weapon has quite a few problems, including the fact that it may not be clear to new players just how big a deal it is. Also the fact that it is a randart only usable by a few species is a problem IMO, especially since there is already Skullcrusher. I also feel it would be cooler if the silence aura didn't just apply to you, but actually covered more than one square, so it could potentially help (and not just gimp) you.

So here would be my modified proposal based on ackack's idea:


Vow of Silence
+7 / +7 Bardiche
Brand: Speed
Special effect:
1.) Never generates cursed, and uncurseable.
2.) Generates a self-replenishing silence aura when wielded. Silence aura eventually fades upon unwield, but only after a certain number of turns (maybe a bit less than the spell to time out, on average, but a significant number of turns nonetheless).

(great sword or great mace or battleax possible weapon types, too, but I don't think there are any unrandart bardiches so I went with that.)

Flavor can be that it is the "brother weapon" of Undeadhunter: They once belonged to two Paladins, comrades-in-arms who fought the legions of Hell, but the weapons were thought to have faded from history, believed to be lost. Undeadhunter can have its description tweaked to accommodate. (This isn't necessary, but I think it is a nice touch.)

Flavor description can also describe that, although not "holy wrath" brand, its association and use for holy purposes by a Servant of Light in ancient times has made it immune to curses.

The silence aura works by basically having VoS "recast" silence after every X number of turns. The exact field of silence will vary (unlike silent specters), but will never become zero—the player character is guaranteed to always be silenced while wielding this weapon.

If unwielded, the silence aura will go away, but not immediately. This effectively removes your ability to use sound-reliant abilities *tactically*, without making it impossible to pray to a god, or use enchant armor, or even use certain spells (flight to cross a particular patch of water to access a new area).

Using this as your primary weapon would still be very risky, obviously, as a lot of your options are limited. But it is far less radical, and is a good enough weapon that some characters could perhaps adopt its use, especially with the speed brand (making it easier to branch out into polearms if you weren't using them already). It is basically like speed brand on an excellent weapon type for it, with built-in anti-magic (of a different type) AND reaching. But at a steep cost.

[XuaXua]

Allow it to be cursed, with a 1-2 aut window of breathing room between refreshes; this would allow scrolls to be read or spells to be cast if one is prepared. Plus Ashenzari won't feel excluded.

[ackack]

. I also feel it would be cooler if the silence aura didn't just apply to you, but actually covered more than one square, so it could potentially help (and not just gimp) you.

Definitely; this was what I had in mind for the weapon initially. Affecting all monsters 1 to 2 tiles away from the player seems useful without being excessive.

As mentioned originally, part of the appeal of the gsc was that it was only for races that weren't huge casters anyway and thus more likely to be adopted by them. I wouldn't be averse to a great mace. But for me the permanence of the thing was kind of the point. It's a big decision that radically alters how the game continues; personally I think it would be fun to see more things like that.

[and into]

As mentioned originally, part of the appeal of the gsc was that it was only for races that weren't huge casters anyway and thus more likely to be adopted by them. I wouldn't be averse to a great mace. But for me the permanence of the thing was kind of the point. It's a big decision that radically alters how the game continues; personally I think it would be fun to see more things like that.

I do think there is room for certain radical options, I like the radicalness of your initial proposal. I'm not sure if weapons are the best way to offer radical options, though, especially if part of what is radical about it is that it *removes* so many other options. An unremovable (single or multiple tile) perma-silence thing would work better for a strict god conduct, actually, since (I believe) Renounce Religion *is* accessible while silenced. Of course, such a god could have extremely bad penance... That would be pretty cool actually. I don't know, maybe there's not much difference in practice, but when you have "Extremely difficult to reverse" versus "Completely irreversible," the former seems very Crawl-like and the latter very much against Crawl's design, in my opinion. (Aside from species choice, final god gift, and death, obviously. And probably a few other things I'm not thinking of at the moment.)

Allow it to be cursed, with a 1-2 aut window of breathing room between refreshes; this would allow scrolls to be read or spells to be cast if one is prepared. Plus Ashenzari won't feel excluded.

This could work too, and I'd like not to exclude Ashenzari. My only worry here would be that the window of 0 silence is small enough that it can't be semi-scummed (waiting with a powerful sleeping enemy just around corner in order to attack with scroll options unblocked). Other concern would be that even if the window is small, this could potentially be rather tedious, especially in (e.g.) Tomb or a mummy vault or mummy-heavy Crypt. It would be powerful but dangerous in Tomb (great!) but I wouldn't want to add a lot of "waiting for silence aura to become 0" in order to read ?RC. Better to remove that tedium in my opinion by making it uncurseable.

[Amnesiac]

how will making a pet out of a moth of suppression work with this item?

[and into]

how will making a pet out of a moth of suppression work with this item?

If I understand what you are saying right, then that also points to a problem with the original proposal: There *would* actually be gimmicky (and spoilery) ways to remove the Vow of Silence, through polymorph trickery and/or moth of suppression, which if unchecked would undercut the main virtue of ackack's initial proposal: Just how extreme of an option it presents. I think a slightly less extreme, but still very tempting and disconcerting at the same time, option would be more appropriate in terms of game design.

But, as I said, I do admire the sheer (for lack of a better word) ballsiness in the idea that players might take the Vow as ackack initially proposed it. Unfortunately I think it would be very rare... Still rare in my proposal, but considerably less so, both because the item type would be more accessible, and because the conduct would be non-permanent and much more forgiving for strategic vocalizations.

[bcadren]

Something that would be more reasonably useful to a lot of players would be this:

+10, +10 Silent Dagger {Silence Aura*, Curse}

The Aura only silences melee noise and prevents casting RIGHT NEXT you; your square and squares in melee range only. Silence aura could make it extremely useful for Assassins/Enchanters, but the inability to cast while wielding and need to expend scrolls of remove curse (or tomfoolery involving wands of polymorph) in order to cast anything or remove it makes it more of a decision than an artifact you could just put on when you needed the silent effect and take off immediately afterword.

[Mankeli]

Something that would be more reasonably useful to a lot of players would be this:

+10, +10 Silent Dagger {Silence Aura*, Curse}
Silence aura could make it extremely useful for Assassins/Enchanters

Silence lowers your stealth AFAIK so probably less useful than you think (it doesn't ruin it completely though).

[bcadren]

Something that would be more reasonably useful to a lot of players would be this:

+10, +10 Silent Dagger {Silence Aura*, Curse}
Silence aura could make it extremely useful for Assassins/Enchanters

Silence lowers your stealth AFAIK so probably less useful than you think (it doesn't ruin it completely though).

According to the wiki (if it's up to date) it's -50 stealth, which is hardly noticeable on a Stabber. [Average vampire at 12 stealth skill would have close to 300 stealth; average Spriggan 275; average human 250]

[some12fat2move]

You could make the weapon maintain its silence aura until you unwield it at which point it gradually goes away, that sounds pretty simple. Basically wielding it would be like casting silence and the aura won't start to diminish until you unwield it. That might be overpowered though as it would be like a reusable scroll of silence. How about if the silence aura builds up gradually after wielding, and diminishes gradually after unwielding? It would obviously have to be a super badass weapon (like the original proposal) for anyone to consider using it.

[Mankeli]

Something that would be more reasonably useful to a lot of players would be this:

+10, +10 Silent Dagger {Silence Aura*, Curse}
Silence aura could make it extremely useful for Assassins/Enchanters

Silence lowers your stealth AFAIK so probably less useful than you think (it doesn't ruin it completely though).

According to the wiki (if it's up to date) it's -50 stealth, which is hardly noticeable on a Stabber. [Average vampire at 12 stealth skill would have close to 300 stealth; average Spriggan 275; average human 250]

Yeah, well the point was that having a malus in stealth doesn't help stabbing. Damagewise a +0 +0 dagger of elec does more damage against yaktaur (AC/EV 4/4) in skill levels 1 to 27 than your +10 dagger and so does distortion, pretty much (with a slighter margin BUT with a chance of banishing the foe!). AND you have the added benefit of casting confuse and EH freely on your victims!

[and into]

According to the wiki (if it's up to date) it's -50 stealth, which is hardly noticeable on a Stabber. [Average vampire at 12 stealth skill would have close to 300 stealth; average Spriggan 275; average human 250]

Between 1/6 and 1/5 of your stealth at level 12 is not exactly negligible.

A perma-silenced cursed weapon is probably not ever going to be used, unless I misunderstood your post and the silence aura is not permanent. Having a curse-immune weapon good enough that you might want to use it, but having a silence aura attached to it is a major bonus and drawback simultaneously, this seems to me at least potentially interesting. I don't see how making silence permanent and literally "taking an unbreakable (or nearly so) vow of silence" is a good idea for an item. And It would be even worse if there were silly grindy ways to remove it from you.