Remove burdened and item weight

[pubby]

Since nausea was removed, can we have item weight/burdened removed too? Item weight serves practically no point besides being a huge annoyance and time waster.

Food: I don't see any point to limiting the amount of food you can carry. Food shouldn't be a challenge in the game.
Ammo: Every ranger I've played has been able to carry at least 100 missiles. That's enough for any fight, with plenty left over. The one exception is large rocks.
Scrolls/potions: The 52 item limit and item destruction hurts these much much more than weight. If for some reason you're burdened by scrolls or potions, you'll always drop non-emergency scrolls such as remove curse first, which has no effect besides adding tedium.
Armour: Armour swapping isn't very good in the first place.
Weapons: Weapon swapping is actually useful, but the 52 item limit keeps it in check. Besides, most characters that carry multiple weapons have more than enough STR to do so.
Wands: 52 item limit hurts more.

In conclusion, the only thing that should be limited is the amount of large rocks you can carry. Remove item weight and give STR a useful purpose to raise.

[XuaXua]

The other ammo exception is curare due to rarity.

[Davion Fuxa]

I sort of like this idea, but I feel if Item Weight was to go in then Item Destruction would need to be reworked and reasons to Stash items would need to be diminished first.

[nicolae]

Since nausea was removed, can we have item weight/burdened removed too? Item weight serves practically no point besides being a huge annoyance and time waster.

Food: I don't see any point to limiting the amount of food you can carry. Food shouldn't be a challenge in the game.
Ammo: Every ranger I've played has been able to carry at least 100 missiles. That's enough for any fight, with plenty left over. The one exception is large rocks.
Scrolls/potions: The 52 item limit and item destruction hurts these much much more than weight. If for some reason you're burdened by scrolls or potions, you'll always drop non-emergency scrolls such as remove curse first, which has no effect besides adding tedium.
Armour: Armour swapping isn't very good in the first place.
Weapons: Weapon swapping is actually useful, but the 52 item limit keeps it in check. Besides, most characters that carry multiple weapons have more than enough STR to do so.
Wands: 52 item limit hurts more.

In conclusion, the only thing that should be limited is the amount of large rocks you can carry. Remove item weight and give STR a useful purpose to raise.

What if large rocks didn't stack? Or if they couldn't be carried at all if you're not large? (Is there a particular reason species who can't throw a large rock might want to have one?)

[jejorda2]

There is no reason you couldn't just say, "Nobody can carry more than 8 large rocks" or whatever arbitrary limit you want to set. Carrying 40 large rocks seems like a balance problem in a way that 500 arrows isn't. Large rocks make targets for Rapid Deconstruction.

Does carrying unlimited ammo make Jiyva healing too powerful or irksomely attractive?

Do the lantern of shadows or other miscellaneous items need a non-weight drawback for holding it in inventory, like reduced stealth or frequent noise?

[Jeremiah]

What about carrying corpses or chunks for the purposes of necromancy?

[o_O]

yea, everything you have lots of is just so light they fill up your items before weight becomes a real issue. Now that str reduces armor evasion penalties it has a real purpose too.

Of course, we could just make scrolls and pots heavier. The idea being you have to choose between int for spells or str for more emergency items and melee characters who rely more on consumables will be able to carry more. Say the pots are filled with liquid mercury and the scrolls are written in neutronium ink.

[pubby]

Does carrying unlimited ammo make Jiyva healing too powerful or irksomely attractive?

Isn't this already a bug? Ammo stacks shouldn't be valued by slimes as much as they are.

What about carrying corpses or chunks for the purposes of necromancy?

It doesn't sound very powerful, but it should be easy to disallow players from picking up corpse altogether.
Necromancy being tedious is another problem entirely.

There is no reason you couldn't just say, "Nobody can carry more than 8 large rocks" or whatever arbitrary limit you want to set. Carrying 40 large rocks seems like a balance problem in a way that 500 arrows isn't.

This is what I had in mind. 6 large rocks for large races and 6 javelins for medium races. Branded javelins would have to be removed. Anyone can pick up more explicitly, but you would get the "overloaded" status. This allows kobolds to move large rocks out of a doorway, for instance.

[nicolae]

This is what I had in mind. 6 large rocks for large races and 6 javelins for medium races. Branded javelins would have to be removed. Anyone can pick up more explicitly, but you would get the "overloaded" status. This allows kobolds to move large rocks out of a doorway, for instance.

If it is actually important to limit the amount of large rocks or javelins that can be carried on a stricter basis than number of inventory slots, I don't think another arbitrary breakpoint is what would be needed, though. Why 6, and not 5, or 4, or 7, or 8? And what would be the easiest way to convey this to the unspoiled player?

[rchandra]

number of inventory slots is definitely tight for javelins, and probably tight enough for large rocks. Javelins could probably even stack, anyway.

[prozacelf]

I'm failing to see where the tedium comes in. Weight has the advantage of already making some sort of sense, and imposes a penalty on deep elves and spriggans in particular. You'd ultimately end up with similar issues anyway based on limited inventory slots. Carried weight can also adversely affect some form changes.

I can somewhat see your point but it seems like a fairly big change for limited benefit and it could have unforeseen consequences.

[moocowmoocow]

I'm failing to see where the tedium comes in. Weight has the advantage of already making some sort of sense, and imposes a penalty on deep elves and spriggans in particular. You'd ultimately end up with similar issues anyway based on limited inventory slots. Carried weight can also adversely affect some form changes.

I can somewhat see your point but it seems like a fairly big change for limited benefit and it could have unforeseen consequences.

I find it tedious having to play the inventory management simulator game in order to get back to the kill stuff game.

[prozacelf]

OK. Point taken.

[pubby]

Why 6, and not 5, or 4, or 7, or 8?

6 is about the number that ogres can carry right now. 6 is about the amount of javelins found on the floor. 6 is about the number of shots you can get off against an enemy before they melee you.

5 or 7 seem fine too. It doesn't really matter.

And what would be the easiest way to convey this to the unspoiled player?

The same way the game conveys the 52 item limit: some bullshit message when you try to pick things up telling you that only 6 will fit in your pack.

[Sandman25]

I disagree with "Every ranger I've played has been able to carry at least 100 missiles.". 100 missiles is hardly enough. My KoHu spent 60 steel bolts in a single fight and it had also 30+ poisonous bolts, 30+ flaming bolts, 30+ freezing bolts, 30+ silver bolts, 50+ penetrating bolts. Tiamath took about 100 bolts to be killed, the longest fight vs a single monster I ever had.

I would welcome the weight removal though, the KoHu could not use many wands/potions/scrolls because of weight issue.

[daggaz]

I play a lot of kobolds, and I definitely run into space restrictions far more often than weight restrictions. That said, I often end up burdened and the three main culprits are a) meat, b) wands and c) large stacks of sling bullets. Occasionally I will run into trouble if I am carrying around a couple armors/robes with resistance brands, but lately I've come to realize that between switching armor being such a pain in the ass, and me forgetting/being unable to switch when it really matters.. Ive stopped dragging that shit around.

Its annoying as hell when you are deep in a branch and you have to start making mini-stashes due to burden/overload..

[snow]

Burden? You mean that obscure pointless mechanism that you only ever see after chopping up a dragon? All it does is force you to drop a few dragon chunks.

It's not like it prevents you from carrying too many consumables (item destruction already balances that) or forces you to up strength (the strength requirement for heavy armor already balances that).

Realistically the mechanism is so laughably pointless and easily avoidable that it's hard to even hate it. It has literally 0 impact on any of my games so it might as well not exist, but even if it does exist, again it has 0 impact and is completely pointless so I couldn't care either way if it's removed or not.

[Sandman25]

Burden? You mean that obscure pointless mechanism that you only ever see after chopping up a dragon? All it does is force you to drop a few dragon chunks.

It's not like it prevents you from carrying too many consumables (item destruction already balances that) or forces you to up strength (the strength requirement for heavy armor already balances that).

Realistically the mechanism is so laughably pointless and easily avoidable that it's hard to even hate it. It has literally 0 impact on any of my games so it might as well not exist, but even if it does exist, again it has 0 impact and is completely pointless so I couldn't care either way if it's removed or not.

Do you always play Sp?

[yogaFLAME]

Just make food and chunks weightless. Or 1/10th of what they are now.

[Bim]

Seconded, although not very consistent, I feel that having food/chunks not count towards weight would stop the tedium without breaking the small/large race balance issues.

[njvack]

... except possibly for simulacrum and sublimation, especially for kiku worshippers.

For me, burden messages are a reminder to turn off autopickup for wands and scrolls I don't want to accumulate.

[jaega1]

I think that this is an issue that is relevant primarily for new players. I remember when I was a really bad player (not that I am good now) and I would pick up everything imaginable because I had no idea what might be useful later on in the game. Eventually I figured out what items will be useful and what items I will never, ever need. So now it is just annoying when you butcher a big creature.

[Blade]

For what it's worth, even when I'm playing DE/Sp, I generally feel limited much more by the 52-item limit than by a potential for being burdened. Generally, item weight results in decisions more like "which useless/redundant items should I drop to make room for this latest huge stack of chunks" than "which of these two good items should I choose between". This leads to tedium far more often than it leads to meaningful decisions. I wouldn't miss carrying capacity limits if they were removed; they add very little.

[tasonir]

Why 6, and not 5, or 4, or 7, or 8?

6 is about the number that ogres can carry right now. 6 is about the amount of javelins found on the floor. 6 is about the number of shots you can get off against an enemy before they melee you.

I'll frequently carry 7 or 8 large rocks in the late game, once my strength has gotten very high on a large race. 6 is a early/mid game limit, though. But for javelins, I've frequently gone up to 10-15 after clearing shoals, often branded, and use them as a secondary damage source for things I don't want to melee. Being limited to 6 would be a huge nerf. Characters with naturally high strength (fighter backgrounds on races that get str on some level ups) can carry a lot more than 6 javelins. What about characters who worship Chei?

I'd love to not be burdened by chunks on my DE's, but limiting ammo arbitrarily isn't worth it. Whatever replacement system would need to be thought out carefully. The amount of ammo you can carry could itself be tied to strength. Ie, ammo would have weight, but no other items in the game would have weight anymore. It works, although it's a bit logically inconsistent.

[Igxfl]

Perhaps a stack of javelins takes up one inventory slot per 3 javelins or something? It's a similar limit.

[Bim]

... except possibly for simulacrum and sublimation, especially for kiku worshippers.

Agreed, this would be a buff, but it's not like you're going to be able to carry/use a ridiculous amount more as there is still an item limit and chunks still go off. I feel the advantage of not having to constantly inventory manage as a weak and carniverous species would reduce a lot of mid-late game tedium that we could really do without.

[snow]

In my last game as an sp I cleared the vaults with 4 strength (starting strength for a spen). The only time I was burdened was when I was identifying the books/staves in elf. I find spen much easier to play if you up int early on instead of str as many suggest.

I normally only keep like 2-3 of each potion/scroll on me (which is the suggested amount because of item destruction). An sp doesn't have to deal with heavy armour or chunks so you're right they're the least likely species to see burden... but even something like a hu rarely gets burdened if you play around item destruction.

It's really a pointless mechanism because it tries to balance something that item destruction already balances.

[galehar]

It's really a pointless mechanism because it tries to balance something that item destruction already balances.

Wands are heavy and indestructible

[prozacelf]

It's really a pointless mechanism because it tries to balance something that item destruction already balances.

Wands are heavy and indestructible

As are most other evokable items.

[battaile]

Wands are heavy and indestructible

and primarily constrained by the 52 item limit.

[snow]

It's really a pointless mechanism because it tries to balance something that item destruction already balances.

Wands are heavy and indestructible

I'm sorry but is that supposed to matter? Does anyone seriously carry like 12 wands of frost into Zot? Any even if you did you can get along fine as long as you're not also lugging around the Library of Alexandria and a year's supply of curing potions. Realistically you'll carry around maybe 3 wands: hasting/teleport/healing and that shouldn't have any meaningful effect on burden.

Though to be fair this is more of a fault of wands than anything else: if we got rid of wands of fire/flame and just had a fire wand that scaled well people might actually carry them around.

[Sealer]

Why shouldn't choosing what players want to carry, and how much they carry be a strategical decision in this game? There is a careful balance in carrying different stuff depending on what character you are playing, and it requires thought and decision making. I would hate to see that part of the game go.

[Sealer]

I'm failing to see where the tedium comes in.

have you ever butchered something big and then pressed o

IMO make autopickup pick 2-3 chunks depending on your hunger, and drop rotten ones instead of removing burden.

[galehar]

I'm sorry but is that supposed to matter?

Maybe there's a reason their weight has been set so high

Does anyone seriously carry like 12 wands of frost into Zot?

Of course not, it's completely dumb. But 12 high tier wands would certainly help.

[njvack]

I'm sorry but is that supposed to matter?

Maybe there's a reason their weight has been set so high

Does anyone seriously carry like 12 wands of frost into Zot?

Of course not, it's completely dumb. But 12 high tier wands would certainly help.

In my experience, wands would need to be much heavier for their weight to be the limiting factor. Even on something like a DEFE.

12 high-tier wands wouldn't help much in Zot IMO, because if you need to zap 100 bolts in a fight, you're doing something wrong (and anyhow, if you need 12 high-tier wands in zot, you needed them to get there, so you don't have 12 high-tier wands left). And if you don't need them all in one fight, you can drop your empties and either walk to a recharging source or more wands.

Really, though, I don't know that removing weight would help much. At some point, I'm going to realize I'm carrying around 5 paralysis wands and 3 confusion wands and 6 slowing wands and drop them and turn off autopickup for them. If it doesn't happen because I'm burdened, it'll happen because my inventory is full.

[rebthor]

It's really a pointless mechanism because it tries to balance something that item destruction already balances.

Wands are heavy and indestructible

I'm sorry but is that supposed to matter? Does anyone seriously carry like 12 wands of frost into Zot? Any even if you did you can get along fine as long as you're not also lugging around the Library of Alexandria and a year's supply of curing potions. Realistically you'll carry around maybe 3 wands: hasting/teleport/healing and that shouldn't have any meaningful effect on burden.

Though to be fair this is more of a fault of wands than anything else: if we got rid of wands of fire/flame and just had a fire wand that scaled well people might actually carry them around.

You forgot digging and disintegration in case you get the OCS Zot:5 but yeah, I agree with pretty much everything you said.

At some point, I'm going to realize I'm carrying around 5 paralysis wands and 3 confusion wands and 6 slowing wands and drop them and turn off autopickup for them. If it doesn't happen because I'm burdened, it'll happen because my inventory is full.

Also very true.

[snow]

As others have said weight isn't much of a limiting factor. You'll never have to main a choice about what to carry... only how much to carry... and that quip about wands isn't even really worth mentioning. Furthermore "how much" has no tactical relevance (which is also why item destruction is sort of pointless).

"WE DON'T WANT YOU CARRYING 40 CURING POTIONS!!"

Why...?

"NO REASON! JUST BECAUSE! LOLOLOL."

Alright. It doesn't have any tactical relevance anyway so it's not worth arguing over.

[pubby]

I'll frequently carry 7 or 8 large rocks in the late game, once my strength has gotten very high on a large race. 6 is a early/mid game limit, though. But for javelins, I've frequently gone up to 10-15 after clearing shoals, often branded, and use them as a secondary damage source for things I don't want to melee. Being limited to 6 would be a huge nerf. Characters with naturally high strength (fighter backgrounds on races that get str on some level ups) can carry a lot more than 6 javelins. What about characters who worship Chei?

If you want a hard-hitting ranged attack then use (cross)bows. It's not much of a nerf to character building when you consider this.

Throwing already has the best utility projectiles (needles, darts of dispersal), and the hardest hitting (large rocks), and so they don't really need javelins to begin with. Still, darts could get buffed a bit to make them worth using.

Anyway, I'm working on a patch so we can test this. I'll throw-in an autopickup update too.

[XuaXua]

Tactics: the more items you carry, the longer it takes to (swap weapons, wear jewelery/armor, eVoke a different wand than the prior one used, etc) due to having to search through such a large inventory.

[Sandman25]

I'm sorry but is that supposed to matter?

Maybe there's a reason their weight has been set so high

Does anyone seriously carry like 12 wands of frost into Zot?

Of course not, it's completely dumb. But 12 high tier wands would certainly help.

Very true. You never know when you find scrolls of recharging.

j - a wand of heal wounds (9)
o - a wand of teleportation (3)
p - a wand of heal wounds (4)
w - a wand of teleportation (2)
C - a wand of teleportation (3)
E - a wand of digging (7)
I - a wand of teleportation (6)
M - a wand of teleportation (0)
Q - a wand of heal wounds (0)
S - a wand of hasting (5)
T - a wand of fireball (6)

[Davion Fuxa]

I'm sorry but is that supposed to matter?

Maybe there's a reason their weight has been set so high

Does anyone seriously carry like 12 wands of frost into Zot?

Of course not, it's completely dumb. But 12 high tier wands would certainly help.

Very true. You never know when you find scrolls of recharging.

j - a wand of heal wounds (9)
o - a wand of teleportation (3)
p - a wand of heal wounds (4)
w - a wand of teleportation (2)
C - a wand of teleportation (3)
E - a wand of digging (7)
I - a wand of teleportation (6)
M - a wand of teleportation (0)
Q - a wand of heal wounds (0)
S - a wand of hasting (5)
T - a wand of fireball (6)

Even if you somehow manage to get all those wands, it is likely you wouldn't be carrying around all of them at once - I'd likely drop all the Wands of Teleportation bar 'I', drop Wand of Heal Wounds 'P' and 'Q', and possibly the Wand of Fireball outside of Zot for example. On top of them I might drop Scrolls of Recharging I find.

Now, something to note here though is that what's missing here is the discussion about carrying things like Wands, Ammunition, and what not in the Early or Mid Game. Carrying around Lower Tier Wands, Higher Tier Wands, sometimes Rods, and the rest of assortment of the kitchen you are bringing along with you is another story. It is likely the only time players will really have weight problems concerning being Burdened or Overloaded is in our around Orcish Mines and the Lair; this is where item weight really factors in and holds its importance.

[Sandman25]

Even if you somehow manage to get all those wands, it is likely you wouldn't be carrying around all of them at once - I'd likely drop all the Wands of Teleportation bar 'I', drop Wand of Heal Wounds 'P' and 'Q', and possibly the Wand of Fireball outside of Zot for example. On top of them I might drop Scrolls of Recharging I find.

That was list from my last winning game. Sometimes I find 2-3 scrolls of recharging and every such scroll can give up to 6 zaps to wand of Heal Wound/Teleportation/Hasting so I try to have 2 wands with 3 zaps instead of 1 wand with 6 zap.
Also I spent 10+ zaps of Heal Wounds and about 4 zaps of teleportation in a single level (Tomb 3) so I don't feel safe with just 9 zaps of HW. Not to mention Zigs where recharge scrolls are plentiful.

[snow]

Sandman25 you have no excuse for carrying around all those wands other than just not wanting to bother visiting your stash. I could maybe see the argument for an extra heal wounds if you're in a zig... but all those teleport wands? Really?

[Sandman25]

Sandman25 you have no excuse for carrying around all those wands other than just not wanting to bother visiting your stash. I could maybe see the argument for an extra heal wounds if you're in a zig... but all those teleport wands? Really?

Yes, I could throw away the empty teleportation wand indeed. But no more. After exploring 10+ pan levels to find an exit I am ok with having more teleportation wands than I usually need, even (or especially?) for DD.

[snow]

Sure, you CAN carry an arbitrary number of wands but my point was you don't NEED to. Furthermore we have a mechanic (burden) that is supposed to limit something that doesn't need to be limited. What, is it supposed to limit the number of wands you carry into Pan or something? It clearly doesn't do that so what does it do?

Even if we trippled the weight of every item it would just make bad players carry around 3 wands of teleportation instead of 5 and never have any meaningful impact on gameplay.

[Sandman25]

Sure, you CAN carry an arbitrary number of wands but my point was you don't NEED to. Furthermore we have a mechanic (burden) that is supposed to limit something that doesn't need to be limited. What, is it supposed to limit the number of wands you carry into Pan or something? It clearly doesn't do that so what does it do?

Even if we trippled the weight of every item it would just make bad players carry around 3 wands of teleportation instead of 5 and never have any meaningful impact on gameplay.

Of course I don't need to. There are players who win with 15 runes as FeFi without any god. But as a fighter I don't need missiles and with cBlink I don't need many consumables to survive so if I can have 10+ wands in my inventory, I will have them.