The Tavern

Lets pretend that sludge elves were being directly replaced with gargoyles. Is this an upgrade to the game? I would say so. I think they fill quite a nice niche as they are now. Giving them some small, simple ability might be nice but not necessary.

WalkerBoh wrote:Giving them some small, simple ability might be nice but not necessary.

Right, no one wakes up in the morning and says "I'm going to play a Draconian because they get tail-slap."

If people are looking for Gargoyles to be differentiated even more, how about a slowly increasing damage resistance boost (like petrification or perhaps simply an AC boost) that builds up over time as you stay in one spot? And when it has progressed a sufficient amount the first movement action has an increased delay. So rather than an ability or a toggle it's a passive petrifying ability. I think it works well with the trample resistance as a concept, the more they stay in place the more statue-like they become.

Synaptic wrote:If people are looking for Gargoyles to be differentiated even more, how about a slowly increasing damage resistance boost (like petrification or perhaps simply an AC boost) that builds up over time as you stay in one spot? And when it has progressed a sufficient amount the first movement action has an increased delay. So rather than an ability or a toggle it's a passive petrifying ability. I think it works well with the trample resistance as a concept, the more they stay in place the more statue-like they become.

I'm ambivalent about this because it encourages corridor fighting, which is already a significant `how to win crawl` technique. A hefty stealth bonus when you stand still might be differentiating without being overpowered.

Gotcha. That particular application hadn't crossed my mind, which honestly surprises me. Stealth bonus definitely makes sense to me, and although it might be too much of a buff, (very possibly way too much) they could be breathless as well to keep the theme of an unmoving statue.
EDIT: I want to clarify I don't think Gargoyles particularly need anything. Just throwing out suggestions in case the "Gargoyles need to be more unique" crowd have any sway, I really like them and want them to stay in the game.

why do gargs have sharp toenails and not sharp fingernails?

also in game it says their hp is +10% but in practice it's +20% i think...? i'm not sure how hp works but it has lots more than a hill orc

i really like the species and it's like a sludge elf with more hp basically which is cool. i don't think it needs a gimmick.

I think that they need something special if petrification is removed. For me they are too similar to Ghouls. They share rC, rN, 10% hp. Gh have claws, Gr have fangs, talons. Both species are good at UC.

The difference is their food mechanics, and Gh getting rPois, rTorm, and the usual undead restrictions. Gr are basically Gh that aren't completely undead (they still have rC and rN) and with a non-unique food mechanic.

Wahaha wrote:I think that they need something special if petrification is removed. For me they are too similar to Ghouls. They share rC, rN, 10% hp. Gh have claws, Gr have fangs, talons. Both species are good at UC.

The difference is their food mechanics, and Gh getting rPois, rTorm, and the usual undead stuff. Gr are basically Gh that aren't completely undead (they still have rC and rN) and with a non-unique food mechanic.

Gargoyles have slow movement speed and a heavy incentive to branch out into earth magic. They're also one of the few races that are seemingly encouraged to worship Chei (at least relative to others) because of his heavy stat boots helping UC and boosting spellcasting capabilities for the earth spells you learn.
EDIT: Statue form also seems tailor-made for them. They've got a very different playstyle from Ghouls, which I think are one of the most unique with the constant rotting and chunk healing mechanics.

brendan wrote:Right, no one wakes up in the morning and says "I'm going to play a Draconian because they get tail-slap."

I'm pretty sure there will be people who say they will play Draconian because of the random color or ability to get a higher AC as a caster though. The same can't be said about a Gargoyle though with minor gimmicks.

Synaptic wrote:Gargoyles have slow movement speed

no

They're also one of the few races that are seemingly encouraged to worship Chei (at least relative to others) because of his heavy stat boots helping UC

stats dont really boost UC more than other melee (they do help the aux attack significantly but that has nothing to do with UC)

EDIT: Statue form also seems tailor-made for them.

what makes you say that? This doesn't seem the case to me, they don't get any special benefits from it other than it being an earth spell which they are good at casting.

crate wrote:
Synaptic wrote:Gargoyles have slow movement speed

no
They're also one of the few races that are seemingly encouraged to worship Chei (at least relative to others) because of his heavy stat boots helping UC

stats dont really boost UC more than other melee (they do help the aux attack significantly but that has nothing to do with UC)
EDIT: Statue form also seems tailor-made for them.

what makes you say that? This doesn't seem the case to me, they don't get any special benefits from it other than it being an earth spell which they are good at casting.

I was positive they got a -3 penalty to movespeed. My bad. And what I meant by the statue form comment was that they get free auxilary UC attacks, a good aptitude for UC, so they are encouraged to go UC. Earth magic is also a good option for them because they have an amazing aptitude for that, so Statue Form seems like it fits perfectly with their overall playstyle.

Gargoyles are good UC fighters who aren't pigeonholed into using UC. They have good defenses, good hp, and nice conjurations. Trample resistance is flavorful and unique, and I can see the merit of a passive stealth bonus (maybe only when adjacent to a wall). I might also suggest giving gargoyles horns 1 instead of claws or talons, don't most gargoyles have horns?

The comparison to ghouls is fair on paper, though as previously mentioned ghouls are unliving and have their own gimmick. Gargoyles and ghouls play nothing at all like each other in practice.

As a toggle selfpet would overlap heavily with Statue Form, but it could also stack with statue form. With both you become a turret, basically.

Alternatively not being totally immobilized by self petrify would be ok because petrify makes you a stone, but you are already a stone.

WalkerBoh wrote:Gargoyles are good UC fighters who aren't pigeonholed into using UC. They have good defenses, good hp, and nice conjurations. Trample resistance is flavorful and unique, and I can see the merit of a passive stealth bonus (maybe only when adjacent to a wall). I might also suggest giving gargoyles horns 1 instead of claws or talons, don't most gargoyles have horns?

Trample/petrify resistance is about as flavorful as a Merfolks ability to change its legs into a tail and swim in deep water - it is something you can make use of but it isn't a very common occurrence or something you build your character around (like a Deep Dwarves inability to heal which is). Unlike the Merfolk however which doesn't come off as similar to any or species due to its aptitudes, the Gargoyle certainly is - be it to the Deep Dwarf or Ghoul .

An argument was brought up particularly as well about Deep Dwarves and their inability to heal being enough to differentiate them from the Gargoyle and then there was yours about Ghouls being Undead - to some extent I can agree with that, but not if the playstyle while I'm not worrying about how to handle my species gimmicks would be the same as playing with very same playstyle on Gargoyle which doesn't have the gimmick - Humans are already good enough for that.

Right now the only remotely interesting thing about gargoyles to me is their auxes, but tengu and octopodes kind of have that same thing going and it's not really very interesting if you are allowed to cover up the auxes and just play like every other race.

Their apts still seem like more boring SE apts to me but then SE were pretty much slightly more boring humans to begin with.

Just wondering, does gargoyle does not get any bonus stat upon leveling up? Besides the stat up from reaching 3x level the stats doesn't go up.

It does not, although I would assume it's an oversight rather than intentional.

MarvinPA wrote:It does not, although I would assume it's an oversight rather than intentional.

It would be another way to differentiate the Gargoyle though - since I believe Mummy's are the only ones that do that as well.

Bh removed stat gains in the commit 2d3c772b. Probably a mistake.

Huh. So it is a bug, right? Hope it gets resolved soon.

Already done.

https://gitorious.org/crawl/crawl/commi ... ormat=html

Ah, thanks! Though looks like it hasn't been implemented on downloadable versions.

Not really apropos of anything, but: I've been trying to play melee-ish UC GrEEs but failing miserably.

Not in terms of objective game success - they do fine, though I have now killed two strong ones in hilariously embarrassing late-game circumstances. Rather in terms of intent.

The starting spellbook, plus the +3 to Earth Magic, means my strategy of softening things up with Stone Arrow then using Heroism + UC actually amounts to

1. Soften things up with Stone Arrow
2. There is no step 2.

Then I learn LRD and the game becomes a blur of stone chunks, bits of glass, exploding Skeletal Warriors... Earth magic with high aptitude is just a beast.

Eventually I will get Statue Form and go back to punching dudes but... my attempts to create an Earth-themed Tm from scratch are so far not going so well

I kind of agree that with the lack of self-petrification, Gr are back to lacking in flavour. I like the idea of being a little slower and stealthy; being able to revive the tradition of Passwall-stabbing but with claws is appealing, but that doesn't really count as 'an idea'.

Hmm maybe go the whole hog and (tone down the apts and) give them innate Earth-y abilities as they 'harden', like Passwall in exchange for progressively slower movement?

Oh god, I can just see the CYC thread titles now.
Psyche comes into view.
Use which ability?
You start to harden.

I also have to agree with previous posters -without a special ability or huge differentiation in apts Gargoyles become very vanilla, to the point of there being no need for them. The only thing they have going for them is strong EE (which I love) but they do need more differentiation or they just become like SE, which were just removed for being needless.

Ideas:
-A more flexible version of selfpet, most of the complaints revolved around it not being useful which is pretty much the same as saying it was too weak. Perhaps non-total immobilization is key (allow the use of items and slow attacks) or maybe a huge stealth boost combined with slow movement to make them into a slow stalking menace? There has to be a better way that either to make it completely vanilla or have it too strong.

-If it did have to be gotten rid of, perhaps make it into a heavy armour UC class by boosting armour and UC?

-Fast pass wall. This could be quicker than the spell but have a heavier penalty. You could also come out on the other side with a buff of some kind (unsure what type) which would be interesting when combined with Ash, but would be balanced out by not know what was on the other side/it not always being useful. This would add to the sort of 'gargoyles pouncing from the parapets' idea.

Brainstorming a new self petrification ability for gargoyles: Goals of being interesting (and something you'd actually want to use), improving as you level up (ie, reusing the petrified 1/2/3 mutation)

Self Petrify

The gargoyle turns partially to stone, slowing movements but gaining the power of the earth. Does not completely paralyse the player.

Pros:

+(3*petrified rank) AC
+(2*petrified rank) strength
rN+
Regeneration effect (scales with petrified? Giving more than 1hp/turn may be too strong)
Vorpal effect (crushing) added to fist attacks at petrified 2 and above.

Cons:

-(3*petrified rank) EV
slow movement speed, 1.5 turn movement rate

Duration is based on petrified rank - about 10*petrified rank. Exhaustion timer should probably be around 50*petrified rank.

Adds ability to cancel self petrify: failure chance is 100 - (petrified rank * 30), ie, 70% fail for 1, 40% fail for 2, 10% chance to fail for rank 3. If successful, petrification ends immediately. It can be spammed until you succeed, hopefully you've killed everything around you by this point

Numbers can be tweaked of course, but I think giving a flat increase to AC and flat decrease to EV will allow gargoyles to still train dodging and have high EV strategies. If you have 30 EV from really training dodging, using this only drops you to 20, and isn't immediate suicide. I'm not sure if we want to take ev for ac 1:1, but seemed like a reasonable place to start. Adding +5 str, vorpal and regeneration is already pretty strong. If this needs to be toned down there's plenty of numbers to tweak, or the vorpal on unarmed could be removed entirely. Perhaps adding stat rotting as the previous ability had would work as well.

tasonir wrote:Brainstorming a new self petrification ability for gargoyles: Goals of being interesting (and something you'd actually want to use), improving as you level up (ie, reusing the petrified 1/2/3 mutation)

Although that is a lot more useful and flexible, it does overlap heavily with stoneform (although that was pretty much bound to happen with any stone based proposal). I would much prefer gargoyles to have an ability that completely shifts their playstyle (like making them slow and stealthy as opposed to EE which is pretty much the noisiest school) or giving them a utility ability (like quick passwall)

quick passwall would be interesting. My experiences with passwall are basically Memorize the spell, test it out, realize it takes 3 turns to go through a wall, forget the spell. I know it can be used for passwall stabbing but I'm not on a stabber and I don't want my escape option to paralyze me for 3 turns...

Maybe Gargoyles should be able to move into walls like Rock Worms. Might be an interesting through if it is balanced out with decent penalties.

Davion Fuxa wrote:Maybe Gargoyles should be able to move into walls like Rock Worms. Might be an interesting through if it is balanced out with decent penalties.

Basically the amount of penalties needed to balance such a broken ability would cause it to be unfun to use. Passwall and Dig accomplish the same goal of wall-walking without being broken.

For an idea, I'd say allow Gargoyles to anchor themselves to walls like spiders. When against a wall, Gargoyles could receive a bonus to combat to enemies occupying the space opposite to the wall.

Black shows the walls, purple the gargoyles, and green the places where they get a bonus if attacking into.

When I started reading that I thought it was just going to be a bonus for being in a corridor, but it manages to avoid powering up the already favored corridor fight, so I like this strategy. Being near walls but not entirely protected by them becomes advantageous.

Maybe on top of the defensive ability, the Gargoyle might only be hit once by bounced attacks involving the Wall. Ie, if a Lightning Bolt hits the Gargoyle and would otherwise bounce back through him, it counts the Gargoyle as the wall and instead bounces off him.

pubby wrote:For an idea, I'd say allow Gargoyles to anchor themselves to walls like spiders. When against a wall, Gargoyles could receive a bonus to combat to enemies occupying the space opposite to the wall.

This is one of the best ideas I've heard for Gargoyles. It's thematic, it's not complicated to use or unintuitive, it's not game-breaking, and it encourages more interesting positioning and movement. If I knew anything about coding I would absolutely make a patch for this and test it. Good idea!

It makes standing at dead end of a corridor even more overpowered.

Sandman25 wrote:It makes standing at dead end of a corridor even more overpowered.

well that's an awful place to stand in general right now so i dont see the problem

crate wrote:
Sandman25 wrote:It makes standing at dead end of a corridor even more overpowered.

well that's an awful place to stand in general right now so i dont see the problem

This can be the best place if the whole floor is open or vs killer bees. Wand of digging and different scrolls exist also.

Sandman25 wrote:
crate wrote:
Sandman25 wrote:It makes standing at dead end of a corridor even more overpowered.

well that's an awful place to stand in general right now so i dont see the problem

This can be the best place if the whole floor is open or vs killer bees. Wand of digging and different scrolls exist also.

If you are fighting Killer Bees then you most likely don't have the items to waste or the Killer Bees aren't really a threat. As for the Dig Spell or Wand of Digging I don't see a huge problem - Wand of Digging can be nerfed so that its drop chance is more rare while the Dig Spell costs Mana - which for at least 2-3 casts is a substantial amount that could have been used to kill things.

Davion Fuxa wrote:If you are fighting Killer Bees then you most likely don't have the items to waste or the Killer Bees aren't really a threat. As for the Dig Spell or Wand of Digging I don't see a huge problem - Wand of Digging can be nerfed so that its drop chance is more rare while the Dig Spell costs Mana - which for at least 2-3 casts is a substantial amount that could have been used to kill things.

Am I the only one here who occasionally is ambushed by a monster blocking retreat path to explored territory? I hate when it happens. It's better to have rock wall behind than a hostile monster.
I still try to kill a couple of killer bees before teleportation, they are dangerous in a crowd mostly so it helps if I am not going to dive to next floor (which I probably should do)

To clarify, would being in anchored in a corridor give you a bonus in front and behind?
As most of crawl tends to be in corridor fighting, it'd give you a boost for a great deal of your fights/I don't see why you wouldn't use it as soon as you see an enemy in a corridor.

I guess it makes fighting in the open harder, but that's already something you don't usually want to do so I don't see how this wouldn't just become used in pretty much every situation.

Hey Brendan, can you rename the thread by altering the title of the first post?

Bim wrote:To clarify, would being in anchored in a corridor give you a bonus in front and behind?

No; if you were standing in a straight corridor, then both of the open spaces would have an open space in the opposite direction, and wouldn't receive a combat boost.

You can, however, stand at a bend in a corridor to get a bonus to fighting both ends:

Code:: ##### ##### ##@^ ##^## ## ##

But when you do that, a pack can get around you and cut off your escape. Seems like the only way to fight one-on-one and get the combat boost is to stand at a diagonal bend in a corridor, something like this:

Code:: #### # ###^## ##@### ##^### ## ###

which doesn't happen very often naturally without the use of digging or similar.

This is a cool, unique, and thematic idea, but we'd have to come up with a good enough bonus to beat corridor fighting.

Thanks for the clarification - and I love the idea - but to me it seems a little bit confusing to work out where you get the bonus/can attack without a diagram/a lot of explanation (sorry if I'm just being dense). Perhaps there could be markers/shaded tiles where you could attack when anchored to help people get their bearings with it?

Also, is there any trade off for anchoring? Perhaps it takes a turn or two to anchor/dis-anchor? stat drain still? It seems to me that otherwise you would just endlessly be leading enemies back to walls/choke points.

I don't think anchoring needs to stat drain or other severe drawbacks. The benefits aren't going to be earth shattering and it's encouraging you to fight in an otherwise non-ideal location.

Possible benefits idea: a high bonus to accuracy and a minor damage bonus on attacks. I think the high accuracy bonus works for two reasons - it encourages people to use anchoring for highly evasive monsters but is something they can ignore most of the time when the monster isn't very dodgy anyways. Secondly it's thematic with the stability you have from being anchored and is the opposite of being in shallow water and fumbling your attack. A smaller damage bonus means there's always some benefit to using it, but it isn't that critical. Something like 1 + 1d3 maybe.

tasonir wrote: The benefits aren't going to be earth shattering and it's encouraging you to fight in an otherwise non-ideal location.

I SEE WHAT YOU DID THERE.

I suppose it could have a high MP/food cost - I really do think that even with a small damage/accuracy bonus you'd be making gargoyles into a 'wander back to the anchoring position for most fights' race - especially in the beginning. I don't think that it's too much of a problem, but it definitely needs some sort of balance.

How about if you lost half (or even all?) of your MP when anchoring for a bigger bonus? This would make it a tool you need to think about before using, and with such a big MP sacrifice it'd be quite the decision and differentiate it between other abilities.

I can't imagine using it if it cost half/all your MP, If it had a set cost (the way every other ability does) it'd make more sense to me. but "All your MP" as an ability conflicts with being able to cast spells and drastically limits the kind of fighting you can do.

I'd still like to see self petrify working usefully. I'd do 'petrifying' as normal, then when you become 'petrified' there's a stealth check and if the critter fails it, they become de-aggro and start wandering and do stealth checks every round just like they do when you're normally stealthy.

I'd also add a stealth bonus to the 'petrified' form (so you might have *some* effects even if you don't train a ton of stealth) and I'd make that bonus level dependant, and possibly higher if you are standing next to a rock/stone wall.

That way self-petrify is a slight defensive bonus for a while, with a *possible* payout of having the baddies wander off and not beat on you, but with the downside risk of them just getting some free turns to beat on you, mitigatable by training sufficient stealth.

If you really want to throw something crazy in there, you could get an earth spell enhancement while self-petrifying (Currently the only ways to get earth spell enhancements are staff of earth and robe of archmagi, there's no way to get a third enhancement bonus, and this could be a way to do so, balanced by the fact that you'd be slower of course)

I think that might be too powerful for a racial ability though.

Perhaps all/half was too strong, but I feel that it should take off a significant chunk, so as to change up the situation sufficiently instead of just the '2mp and small food cost' of most abilities. I'm sure there are other better costs, but I'd much prefer the ability to be a meaningful choice.

I've thought there should be gloves that let you enhance any earth spell while consuming wielded stones. Higher level spells take more stones, and the enhancement is more than you get from a staff of earth (maybe 150% of the staff's boost), since you can't wield stones and the staff at the same time.

Maybe Gargoyles should be able to wield stones to enhance all earth spells, expanding the sandblast mechanic. Maybe only while being petrified.

Stones consumed might be 1 + 1d(L-1) where L is the spell level. Must hold L stones to get the enhancement.

I like this idea as stones quickly become useless later on (their only real use being sandblast and early sling use) and it is a novel way to differentiate. However, I guess some players might get annoyed with having to carry stones around with them for spells (especially as they can be quite heavy) and the difference in power would probably be too strong if they could be used for everything.

Perhaps stones could be used to rejuvenate gargoyles? If you had to use say 10 stones or one large rock for a bit of hp/mp it'd be quite a big carrying investement but would be an interesting use.

I think the "anchoring" proposal wasn't for an activated ability, but rather something like the spider "cling" mechanic, that just activates whenever you're near a wall. As such, attaching costs would be awful. Also, others have already pointed out that corridors will often be better anyway, so an anchor bonus will generally be fine since it's a smaller bonus than retreating to a corridor.

Anchoring should absolutely be passive, not activated. As such it should be a small bonus. I wouldn't be in favor of a small damage boost - that's functionally similar to an aux attack, which they already have two of. A small attack speed boost (+10%?) seems okay. It should also take at least one turn to anchor, you shouldn't be anchored while moving along a wall for instance.

The Tavern

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