New Species: Gargoyle


Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.

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Dungeon Master

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Post Saturday, 11th May 2013, 21:35

New Species: Gargoyle

Grotesks, a gargoyle-like rock race.
Partially implemented on the gargoyle branch.

Abilities
  • Petrification immunity.
  • Self petrification. (Stolen from here.)
Grotesks take longer to petrify than other races. Up to twice as long at level 1, x3 at level 7, x4 at level 15 (or something like that).
Same defensive bonuses (rTorment, damage reduction) while petrifying as when petrified. Perhaps a boost to these effects.

Stats
  • Great Strength
  • Bad Dexterity

Aptitudes
  • Great Earth
  • Terrible Air
  • Good Maces
  • Bad Swords
  • Good stealth
  • Bad armour and dodge

Dungeon Master

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Post Saturday, 11th May 2013, 21:52

Re: New Species: Grotesk

Awesome, Brendan! The rock god proposal rocks the world, too. Let's hope the species turns out well, so that the deity can slowly follow.

If we're lucky, that means two new species for 0.13!! :) (A bit behind on the gods, I'll have to try harder to lure coders into god stuff.)
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Post Saturday, 11th May 2013, 23:14

Re: New Species: Grotesk

Stealthy ogres with an innate ability to berserk and who are good at earth magic?

Alright then, though good unarmed might make sense due to it being a gargoyle out of rock, the two of whom I'd imagine would mix quite well for weaponless combat.
take it easy
  Code:
!lg * won !DD-- min=turns -log
<Sequell> 20749. Bloax, XL24 VSTm, T:13320: http://crawl.lantea.net/crawl/morgue/Bloax/morgue-Bloax-20140907-000920.txt

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Dungeon Master

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Post Saturday, 11th May 2013, 23:35

Re: New Species: Grotesk

brendan wrote:[*]Self petrification. (Stolen from here.)[/list]
Grotesks take longer to petrify than other races. Up to twice as long at level 1, x3 at level 7, x4 at level 15 (or something like that).
Same defensive bonuses (rTorment, damage reduction) while petrifying as when petrified. Perhaps a boost to these effects.

Note that petrification already gives you massive damage reduction, and if you give them an extended petrifying status (with even higher defensive bonuses than normal), it's going to be very hard to die. At least if players are able to use this ability without limit. We're basically talking about a slowing effect that makes you take half as much damage.
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Post Sunday, 12th May 2013, 00:27

Re: New Species: Grotesk

evilmike wrote:Note that petrification already gives you massive damage reduction, and if you give them an extended petrifying status (with even higher defensive bonuses than normal), it's going to be very hard to die. At least if players are able to use this ability without limit. We're basically talking about a slowing effect that makes you take half as much damage.


I forgot that petrification DR extends to all sources, rather than just physical damage. Given that this is the case, I don't see any reason to buff it.

Do you have any ideas for costing it? A breath weapon-type cost seems obvious. Do you think something like potential stat damage could work?
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Post Sunday, 12th May 2013, 00:40

Re: New Species: Grotesk

You could have them have a whole lot of innate AC due to being, well - rock. But have damage taken in a petrified state temporarily damage this innate bonus.

And then we'd have stealthy draconian ogres that can petrify themselves in exchange for getting their AC reduced for a while if they get whacked while getting/being petrified.
Doesn't sound too shabby, though how all that would be implemented is another story. :p
take it easy
  Code:
!lg * won !DD-- min=turns -log
<Sequell> 20749. Bloax, XL24 VSTm, T:13320: http://crawl.lantea.net/crawl/morgue/Bloax/morgue-Bloax-20140907-000920.txt

Did you know that I like ruining crawl every now and then? Go check it out.

Crypt Cleanser

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Post Sunday, 12th May 2013, 01:13

Re: New Species: Grotesk

The species sounds interesting in principle but I'd personally like to see a bit more in regards to what aptitudes should look like. It sounds like it should have a lot of negative aptitudes to make up for an innate 'reversed berserk' like ability it is going to get - if conjunction with slow leveling.

Other innate species abilities should also be discussed a bit - I like the idea of this species getting rising AC similar to Draconians for the key fact that I wouldn't want to be hitting the damn letter key for Self-petrification continually. Another idea might be to make these guys good at Transmutations since they are a shapeshifting race (sort of).
A Google Doc I wrote up in regards to making a new 'workable' definition for the Roguelike Genre:
Defining the Roguelike Genre

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Post Thursday, 30th May 2013, 07:46

Re: New Species: Grotesk

Saw Grotesk go into trunk today, fired up some transmuters and monks. First impressions:

Thank god there's finally a race with more than +1 to unarmed, it's been sad that there's +3 and +4 weapon races but +1 is the highest unarmed. Still, grotesks have fairly low aptitudes for things that are typically combined with unarmed - shields and transmutations. I'd raise their aptitudes in those, both are at -2 now, maybe as high as 0? -1 would be an improvement in any case. I'm worried there might not be too much range to buff aptitudes since they are given several powerful mutations and abilities, so the aptitudes kind of have to be low.

Overall it's a very interesting race and I'm looking forward to playing them more. I'm leaning more towards monk than transmuters atm, since their casting is fairly poor.

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Post Thursday, 30th May 2013, 08:39

Re: New Species: Grotesk

have a pretty promising grotesk into lair but it's now past my bedtime - Couple of nice finds like a shield of protection, +5 ring of dex, and a ton of useful items in shops - good books/jewelry selections. I'll probably get statue form going fairly quickly with the +3 earth aptitude next. dump:

  Code:
 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.13-a0-1262-g897a16e (webtiles) character file.

tasonir the Brawler (Grotesk Monk)                 Turns: 13214, Time: 00:59:58

HP  95/95        AC 10     Str 30      XL: 12   Next: 37%
MP  24/24        EV 22     Int 31      God: Cheibriados [******]
Gold 505         SH 25     Dex 32      Spells:  2 memorised,  7 levels left

Res.Fire  : . . .   See Invis. : .     - Unarmed
Res.Cold  : + . .   Warding    : .   X - +1 robe {MR+}
Life Prot.: + . .   Conserve   : +   k - +0 shield {AC+3}
Res.Poison: .       Res.Corr.  : .   y - +0 helmet
Res.Elec. : .       Clarity    : .   T - +0 cloak (curse)
Sust.Abil.: . .     Spirit.Shd : .   o - +0 pair of orc gauntlets
Res.Mut.  : .       Stasis     : .   w - +0 pair of dwarf boots
Res.Rott. : .       Flight     : .   x - amulet of conservation
Saprovore : . . .                    j - scratched onyx ring {tried}
                                     Q - +5 ring of dexterity

@: very slow, quite resistant to hostile enchantments, quite stealthy
A: fangs 1, talons 2, cold resistance 1, life protection 1, slow metabolism 1,
petrification resistance, petrified 2
a: Self Petrify, Bend Time, Temporal Distortion, Slouch, Step From Time,
Renounce Religion


You are on level 2 of the Lair of Beasts.
You worship Cheibriados.
Cheibriados is exalted by your worship.
You are hungry.

You have visited 2 branches of the dungeon, and seen 13 of its levels.

You have collected 741 gold pieces.
You have spent 236 gold pieces at shops.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 a - a +0,+0 sling
 H - an uncursed blowgun
Missiles
 m - 6 exploding sling bullets
 n - 258 stones (quivered)
 A - 23 steel sling bullets
 U - 61 sling bullets
 Z - 5 curare-tipped needles
Armour
 k - a +0 shield of protection (worn)
 o - a +0 pair of orcish gauntlets (worn)
 w - a +0 pair of dwarven boots (worn)
 y - a +0 helmet (worn)
 T - a cursed +0 cloak (worn)
 X - a +1 robe of magic resistance (worn)
Magical devices
 v - a blackened gold wand
 E - a wand of cold
 I - a wand of cold {empty}
 M - a copper wand {tried by monster}
 R - a bronze wand
 V - a copper wand {zapped: 3} {tried by monster}
Comestibles
 b - 2 meat rations
 c - 7 bread rations
 B - a pear
Scrolls
 d - a scroll labeled KLUOBO DYIDEUS
 h - 2 scrolls of teleportation
 i - a scroll of magic mapping
 l - 3 scrolls of remove curse
 p - 2 scrolls labeled ZERIEP FOSOTIL
 q - 3 scrolls labeled PLIUSU HAROUSU
 r - a scroll labeled TWIXOTT ITIPE
 s - 2 scrolls labeled MNUMOPTETA
 t - 2 scrolls of fear
 u - 3 scrolls labeled HYT INITOPAASK
 L - a scroll labeled PSUMNATSEE
Jewellery
 j - a scratched onyx ring (right hand) {tried}
 x - an amulet of conservation (around neck)
 F - a thick silver amulet
 Q - a +5 ring of dexterity (left hand)
Potions
 e - a fizzy blue potion
 f - 3 potions of invisibility
 g - a fizzy cyan potion
 z - a purple potion
 C - 2 lumpy white potions
 D - a potion of might
 G - a sedimented silvery potion
 J - 4 potions of curing
 K - a slimy red potion
 N - 2 fizzy inky potions
 W - an oily inky potion


   Skills:
 - Level 7.3 Fighting
 - Level 2.0 Slings
 - Level 9.7 Dodging
 - Level 2.1 Stealth
 + Level 3.9 Shields
 - Level 16.0 Unarmed Combat
 - Level 2.5 Hexes
 - Level 9.0 Invocations


You have 7 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Confusing Touch       Hex            ###.......   12%         1    ##.....
b - Flight                Chrm/Air       #.........   85%         3    ####...


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (11/27)            Temple (0/1) D:7             Orc (0/4) D:9
   Lair (2/8) D:9         

Altars:
Cheibriados
Fedhas
Trog

Shops:
D:4: [  D:6: (((+=

Annotations
D:9 exclusion: oklob sapling


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You have very sharp teeth.
You have razor-sharp toenails.
Your flesh is cold resistant.
You resist negative energy.
You have a slow metabolism.
You are immune to involuntary petrification.
You can petrify yourself.


Message History

You pummel the five-headed hydra!!
You kill the five-headed hydra!
Cheibriados thoroughly appreciates the change of pace.
Your Shields skill increases to level 3!
You see here a hydra corpse.
Search for what [Enter for "leather", or ? for help]?
Unknown command.
You cannot afford a book of Transfigurations on D:6; travel there anyway? (y/N)
Search for what [Enter for "leather", or ? for help]?
Read which item? (? for menu, Esc to quit)
Okay, then.
HP restored.
n - 258 stones (gained 14)
Done exploring.
(D) Dungeon        (T) Temple         (O) Orcish Mines   (L) Lair           
Where to? (Enter - Lair:2, ? - help)
Okay, then.
Char dumped successfully.
Char dumped successfully.
Save game and exit?

                    #####
             ###    #...##
        ######.######....##
        #.##....#.##......#
        ##......@##.......#
        ##.......###......#
        #....##..# #......#
        ###..###.###.....##
          ##.###..#.%####.#
           #..#.#...###..##
 ######### #.....<..#...##
##....#..###......##..###
#..#.....#.#......###..#


There are no monsters in sight!

Vanquished Creatures
  Gastronok (D:8)
  A hydra (Lair:2)
  2 hill giants (D:10)
  Joseph (D:8)
  A spiny frog (Lair:1)
  A feature mimic (D:8)
  A queen ant (Lair:1)
  A black mamba (Lair:1)
  An elephant (D:9)
  Psyche (D:8)
  A komodo dragon (Lair:1)
  The ghost of MirrMurr the Magician, an experienced OpWz (D:5)
  Grinder (D:5)
  2 wyverns
  8 yaks
  2 hippogriffs
  A steam dragon (D:8)
  3 hungry ghosts
  3 war dogs (Lair:2)
  A necrophage (D:8)
  5 soldier ants (Lair:1)
  Edmund (D:8)
  4 orc warriors
  2 sky beasts
  3 ice beasts
  3 phantoms
  A troll zombie (D:7)
  A yak skeleton (D:11)
  5 crocodiles
  A yellow wasp (D:10)
  5 ogres
  3 water moccasins
  2 big kobolds
  3 centaurs
  9 giant frogs
  A giant slug (Lair:2)
  4 agate snails
  Blork the orc (D:8)
  23 killer bees
  8 ogre zombies (D:9)
  8 crimson imps
  A crocodile skeleton (D:8)
  6 hounds
  A gnoll shaman (D:4)
  4 orc priests
  5 iguanas
  2 scorpions
  31 worker ants
  7 orc wizards
  5 jellies
  A mummy (D:8)
  11 gnolls
  17 adders
  2 adder zombies
  2 giant mites
  2 giant centipedes (Lair:1)
  9 green rats
  5 worms
  A bat skeleton (D:6)
  A bat zombie (D:5)
  2 giant eyeballs
  8 giant geckos
  3 oozes (D:1)
  23 orcs
  5 giant cockroaches
  12 hobgoblins
  5 ball pythons
  20 bats
  8 giant newts
  A giant spore (D:11)
  20 goblins
  4 goblin zombies (D:9)
  A hobgoblin skeleton (D:6)
  6 hobgoblin zombies
  9 jackals
  A jackal skeleton (D:6)
  25 kobolds
  2 kobold skeletons
  3 orc skeletons (D:9)
  13 orc zombies (D:9)
  8 quokkas
  15 rats
  A rat zombie (D:7)
  2 ballistomycetes (D:6)
437 creatures vanquished.

Vanquished Creatures (others)
  An adder (D:3)
  3 ball pythons (D:9)
  A giant newt (D:4)
  A giant spore (D:6)
  A hobgoblin skeleton (D:9)
  2 rats (D:2)
  3 butterflies (D:9)
  2 fungi (Lair:2)
  A plant (D:9)
15 creatures vanquished.

Grand Total: 452 creatures vanquished

Notes
Turn   | Place    | Note
--------------------------------------------------------------
     0 | D:1      | tasonir, the Grotesk Monk, began the quest for the Orb.
     0 | D:1      | Reached XP level 1. HP: 17/17 MP: 0/0
    95 | D:1      | Reached skill level 5 in Unarmed Combat
   170 | D:1      | Reached XP level 2. HP: 14/24 MP: 1/1
   640 | D:1      | Reached XP level 3. HP: 12/30 MP: 2/2
   719 | D:1      | Reached skill level 6 in Unarmed Combat
   928 | D:2      | Found a snail-covered altar of Cheibriados.
   946 | D:2      | Became a worshipper of Cheibriados the Contemplative
   946 | D:2      | Acquired Cheibriados' first power
  1013 | D:2      | Reached skill level 1 in Invocations
  1013 | D:2      | Reached XP level 4. HP: 27/37 MP: 3/3
  1982 | D:3      | Reached XP level 5. HP: 44/44 MP: 6/6
  2106 | D:3      | Acquired Cheibriados' second power
  2165 | D:3      | Reached skill level 1 in Slings
  2562 | D:3      | Found a bloodstained altar of Trog.
  2661 | D:3      | Reached skill level 7 in Unarmed Combat
  2755 | D:4      | Reached XP level 6. HP: 42/50 MP: 7/7
  3271 | D:4      | Reached skill level 8 in Unarmed Combat
  3462 | D:4      | Found Ofamp's Antique Armour Boutique.
  3478 | D:4      | Bought a pair of dwarven boots for 36 gold pieces
  3718 | D:4      | Acquired Cheibriados' third power
  3843 | D:4      | Gained mutation: You can petrify yourself. [level gain]
  3843 | D:4      | Reached XP level 7. HP: 42/56 MP: 10/10
  4363 | D:4      | Noticed an ogre
  4371 | D:4      | Killed an ogre
  4490 | D:5      | Entered Level 5 of the Dungeon
  4569 | D:5      | Reached skill level 5 in Invocations
  4585 | D:5      | Noticed MirrMurr's ghost (experienced OpWz)
  4597 | D:5      | Killed MirrMurr's ghost
  4597 | D:5      | Reached XP level 8. HP: 56/63 MP: 13/15
  4636 | D:5      | Noticed Grinder
  4647 | D:5      | Killed Grinder
  4758 | D:5      | Acquired Cheibriados' fourth power
  5194 | D:6      | Paralysed by a giant eyeball for 4 turns
  5212 | D:6      | Found Ugeohewill's Book Boutique.
  5238 | D:6      | tasonir: hello
  5427 | D:6      | Bloaxzorro: Chei masterrace.
  5427 | D:6      | Orshelack: hiya Tasonir
  5427 | D:6      | Bloaxzorro: oh man
  5427 | D:6      | Bloaxzorro: Sexy books.
  5427 | D:6      | Orshelack: just read about the new races
  5427 | D:6      | Bloaxzorro: Can you get confusing touch?
  5427 | D:6      | Bloaxzorro: Because that thing is beast.
  5427 | D:6      | tasonir: maybe I should, I haven't really used it much
  5427 | D:6      | tasonir: I think you need to have no gloves, right?
  5427 | D:6      | tasonir: but I am unarmed
  5427 | D:6      | Bloaxzorro: No weapon.
  5516 | D:6      | Reached skill level 9 in Unarmed Combat
  5580 | D:6      | Bloaxzorro: This energy is released when the caster touches a monster with their hands (bare or gloved)
  5591 | D:6      | Bloaxzorro: Helps a ton against tough shit.
  5687 | D:6      | tasonir: ah, alright
  5705 | D:6      | Bloaxzorro: Especially around here when it works a lot of the time.
  5705 | D:6      | Bought a book of Cantrips for 200 gold pieces
  5708 | D:6      | Learned a level 1 spell: Confusing Touch
  5748 | D:6      | Found Xuym's Jewellery Shop.
  5756 | D:6      | tasonir: ah wow I need a lot of gold now ;)
  5756 | D:6      | Bloaxzorro: hehe
  5756 | D:6      | Bloaxzorro: you're so gonna die
  5756 | D:6      | Orshelack: lol
  5756 | D:6      | Bloaxzorro: before you get that
  5792 | D:6      | Found Codohymn's Antique Weapon Shoppe.
  5876 | D:6      | Reached skill level 1 in Hexes
  5909 | D:6      | Reached XP level 9. HP: 60/69 MP: 18/18
  6008 | D:6      | Found Cacehuwa's Antique Weapon Emporium.
  6011 | D:6      | Found Mebbat's Weapon Shoppe.
  6019 | D:6      | Bloaxzorro: 11k lol
  6019 | D:6      | tasonir: it's not bad but yeah, kind of unaffordable ;)
  6103 | D:6      | Bloaxzorro: It's quite good.
  6113 | D:6      | Bloaxzorro: But absurdly overpriced.,
  6143 | D:7      | Reached skill level 10 in Unarmed Combat
  6144 | D:7      | Bloaxzorro: Because by the time you scrape in 11k then you've been wandering the pandemonium for far too long.
  6328 | D:7      | Found a staircase to the Ecumenical Temple.
  6774 | D:8      | Noticed Blork the orc
  6775 | D:8      | Bloaxzorro: Hungry ghosts are no joke.
  6775 | D:8      | tasonir: grotesk have slow metabolism, too
  6775 | D:8      | tasonir: and chei slows it more
  6779 | D:8      | Killed Blork the orc
  6804 | D:8      | Bloaxzorro: Slow metabolism is -1 munchies per turn.
  6808 | D:8      | Bloaxzorro: And Chei gives -1 too.
  6816 | D:8      | Bloaxzorro: And walking takes 3.
  7030 | D:8      | Bloaxzorro: #Cheireasons
  7058 | D:8      | tasonir: heh ;)
  7083 | D:8      | tasonir: steam breath seems to have changed?
  7083 | D:8      | tasonir: more local, less beam?
  7265 | D:8      | Noticed Psyche
  7275 | D:8      | Killed Psyche
  7275 | D:8      | Reached skill level 11 in Unarmed Combat
  7275 | D:8      | Reached XP level 10. HP: 77/77 MP: 21/21
  7291 | D:8      | Learned a level 3 spell: Flight
  7411 | D:8      | Noticed Joseph
  7425 | D:8      | Killed Joseph
  7425 | D:8      | Reached skill level 5 in Dodging
  7507 | D:8      | Noticed Edmund
  7518 | D:8      | Killed Edmund
  7731 | D:8      | Noticed Gastronok
  7764 | D:8      | Killed Gastronok
  7764 | D:8      | Reached skill level 12 in Unarmed Combat
  7839 | D:8      | Reached skill level 13 in Unarmed Combat
  7872 | D:8      | tasonir: very nice EV
  7872 | D:8      | tasonir: but that's more chei than grotesk
  8086 | D:8      | Reached XP level 11. HP: 73/82 MP: 22/22
  8492 | D:9      | Found a staircase to the Orcish Mines.
  8756 | D:9      | Found a blossoming altar of Fedhas.
  8967 | D:9      | Paralysed by a giant eyeball for 4 turns
  9031 | D:9      | Reached skill level 14 in Unarmed Combat
  9199 | D:9      | Found a staircase to the Lair.
  9675 | D:10     | Entered Level 10 of the Dungeon
 10213 | D:10     | Noticed a hill giant
 10224 | D:10     | Killed a hill giant
 10528 | D:10     | Noticed a hill giant
 10534 | D:10     | Killed a hill giant
 10534 | D:10     | Reached skill level 5 in Fighting
 10534 | D:10     | Reached skill level 15 in Unarmed Combat
 11050 | Lair:1   | Entered Level 1 of the Lair of Beasts
 11170 | Lair:1   | Reached XP level 12. HP: 92/94 MP: 19/24
 11204 | Lair:1   | Reached skill level 16 in Unarmed Combat
 11653 | Lair:1   | Reached skill level 1 in Shields
 13051 | Lair:2   | Noticed a five-headed hydra
 13059 | Lair:2   | Killed a five-headed hydra
 13214 | Lair:2   | tasonir: alright, bedtime, more tomorrow ;)


Action                   |  1- 3 |  4- 6 |  7- 9 | 10-12 || total
-------------------------+-------+-------+-------+-------++-------
Melee: Unarmed           |   111 |   135 |   283 |   629 ||  1158
 Fire: Sling             |       |    39 |    28 |    25 ||    92
       Blowgun           |       |       |     4 |    19 ||    23
 Cast: Confusing Touch   |       |       |       |     2 ||     2
Invok: Slouch            |       |       |     2 |     4 ||     6
 Abil: Self Petrify      |       |       |     1 |     1 ||     2
Evoke: Wand              |       |       |     1 |     3 ||     4
  Use: Scroll            |     2 |     5 |     4 |     4 ||    15
       Potion            |       |     1 |       |     1 ||     2
 Stab: Sleeping          |     1 |     3 |    17 |    14 ||    35
       Invisible         |       |     1 |       |       ||     1
       Distracted        |       |       |     1 |     6 ||     7
       Confused          |       |       |       |     2 ||     2
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 30th May 2013, 14:31

Re: New Species: Grotesk

From a high altitude view, it doesn't distingush enough from Deep Dwarf.
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Post Thursday, 30th May 2013, 15:29

Re: New Species: Grotesk

XuaXua wrote:From a high altitude view, it doesn't distingush enough from Deep Dwarf.

From a high altitude view a high elf doesn't distinguish enough from a deep elf. However, I do sort of know what you mean that it could be further differentiated.

I find Webtiles a pain, but I've a good few plays through. Although I like the idea of a good EE/UC and the general gist of it, I have a few comments:

I'd prefer self-petrify to not completely freeze you (or perhaps that could be 'unlocked' at a higher level - it'd obviously need balancing). I found few situations where it was that desirable to use it and be stuck completely still at the end (hence why it's a monsters weapon). Obviously Berserk leaves you slow and exh but it doesn't completely stop you and you get a huge boost before hand. Self Petrify doesn't feel strong enough to leave you standing there getting surrounded.

You could always have it that you can't move your legs (similar to gargoyles in fiction, that just can't move from their spot, but can do other things) - this would be a nice touch/interesting, and leave the player not completely without options (teleporting/blinking could be non-allowed though)

Attribute wise I'd possibly put down the conj (as +3 is massive!) as well as stealth and then buff armour. This would make for a heavy armour caster (making it similar to the shield dwarf) and differentiate it more. To balance further you could always put down ranged attributes further as well. You could alternatively go with a more stealth focussed race but stealth and EE don't really go...


Overall though, I like the way it's going!
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Post Thursday, 30th May 2013, 17:19

Re: New Species: Grotesk

dpeg wrote:Awesome, Brendan! The rock god proposal rocks the world, too. Let's hope the species turns out well, so that the deity can slowly follow.

Now that the tournament is over I'll be working on a better proposal for the stone god, based on feedback from mumra and others.

Also I really like the premise behind grotesk. If you wanted to nerf petrify a little you could have a "warm-up" period afterwards where you are still slowed but no longer petrified. Maybe this makes it too close to berserk's effects, but it fits thematically I think.

Another (bad) idea I had considered while thinking about the rock god is making self-petrify cost stones or rocks. The cost would work similar to how fed's growth ability works with fruit. Cost in stones would need to be somewhat high since stones are so plentiful, but it would help nerf the ability in the very early game at least.

Thematically I guess the gargoyle somehow absorbs the stones into itself to petrify? Dunno, made more sense as a god ability, but perhaps something along those lines is worth considering.
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Post Thursday, 30th May 2013, 18:58

Re: New Species: Grotesk

Bim wrote:Obviously Berserk leaves you slow and exh but it doesn't completely stop you


henzell wrote:The chance of passing out after your rage is 1 in 10 + (rage_mutation_level * 25). If worshipping Trog and not penitent, there's an additional piety-in-150 chance of not passing out. After berserk ends, you are slowed for 100-200 turns and exhausted for a while.


Just quaffing or evoking rage has a 1/10 chance of completely stopping you.
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Post Thursday, 30th May 2013, 19:08

Re: New Species: Grotesk

WalkerBoh wrote:Thematically I guess the gargoyle somehow absorbs the stones into itself to petrify? Dunno, made more sense as a god ability, but perhaps something along those lines is worth considering.

or use the completely blasphemous possibility of this ability actually being intrinsically available to them - and the god providing this ability to other, non-rock-gargoyle races

but that would be blasphemous, and wrong. why would some race have an ability you have to get a god for ?
edit: stupid mistake correctednesserized
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!lg * won !DD-- min=turns -log
<Sequell> 20749. Bloax, XL24 VSTm, T:13320: http://crawl.lantea.net/crawl/morgue/Bloax/morgue-Bloax-20140907-000920.txt

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Post Thursday, 30th May 2013, 19:59

Re: New Species: Grotesk

Bim wrote:Attribute wise I'd possibly put down the conj (as +3 is massive!) as well as stealth and then buff armour. This would make for a heavy armour caster (making it similar to the shield dwarf) and differentiate it more. To balance further you could always put down ranged attributes further as well. You could alternatively go with a more stealth focussed race but stealth and EE don't really go...


Overall though, I like the way it's going!



Conj is down to +2 from what I can see on trunk. I'd love to see some better armor apt, but I think the intention is that your AC should come from earth magic rather than actual armor. I wouldn't mind having the option for either/both, of course, but the race already seems pretty powerful. I'd still go with a boost to shields/transmutations first ;)

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Post Thursday, 30th May 2013, 20:01

Re: New Species: Grotesk

@Bloax: The point, my needlessly sarcastic and condescending friend, was that gargoyles picking up stones off the floor and absorbing them into their body to petrify themselves makes way less sense than a god that uses sacrificed stones to do the same thing. Obviously there is no problem mechanically with the ability working the same for both.
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Thursday, 30th May 2013, 21:23

Re: New Species: Grotesk

So is there a reason these guys are called Grotesks and not gargoyles? The name "gargoyle" conveys the idea of the species much more immediately and clearly than Grotesk.

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Post Thursday, 30th May 2013, 21:55

Re: New Species: Grotesk

Blade wrote:So is there a reason these guys are called Grotesks and not gargoyles? The name "gargoyle" conveys the idea of the species much more immediately and clearly than Grotesk.


iirc they're grotesks because gargoyles exist in the game but are non-living, unlike grotesks, and bh wanted to emphasize the distinction

My question is why isn't it spelled Grotesque. :(

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Post Thursday, 30th May 2013, 21:58

Re: New Species: Grotesk

except grotesks are now non-living!! rip grdk

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Post Thursday, 30th May 2013, 23:40

Re: New Species: Grotesk

What effect does non-living have on a player? Does that mean they don't take damage from torment, pain weapons, etc?

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Thursday, 30th May 2013, 23:54

Re: New Species: Grotesk

it means you cant worship yred

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Post Friday, 31st May 2013, 00:06

Re: New Species: Grotesk

And nothing of value was lost. ;)
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Post Friday, 31st May 2013, 01:03

Re: New Species: Grotesk

rip grotesks; long live gargoyles
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Post Friday, 31st May 2013, 06:09

Re: New Species: Grotesk

WalkerBoh wrote:The point was that gargoyles picking up stones off the floor and absorbing them into their body to petrify themselves makes way less sense than a god that uses sacrificed stones to do the same thing. Obviously there is no problem mechanically with the ability working the same for both.

Which is why I come up with the completely and utterly statement of why not just have them (and only them) have the innate ability to transform into stone - and leave the stone consumption to the god ability for other races.
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!lg * won !DD-- min=turns -log
<Sequell> 20749. Bloax, XL24 VSTm, T:13320: http://crawl.lantea.net/crawl/morgue/Bloax/morgue-Bloax-20140907-000920.txt

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Post Friday, 31st May 2013, 06:53

Re: New Species: Grotesk

Bloax wrote:Which is why I come up with the completely and utterly statement of why not just have them (and only them) have the innate ability to transform into stone - and leave the stone consumption to the god ability for other races.

As the self-petrify ability is now a gargoyle ability, I wouldn't use it as a god ability at all. I wasn't suggesting using it for both, I was suggesting taking the idea from the god and using it only on gargoyles.

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Post Friday, 31st May 2013, 07:16

Re: New Species: Grotesk

XuaXua wrote:From a high altitude view, it doesn't distinguish enough from Deep Dwarf.

Slow Healing 3 makes DD massively different from every other race; aptitudes are nothing compared to the effect on gameplay that mutation has. I've been irritated for a long time how the only +3 Earth race is DD. DDEE has very constrained options, you either go Maklehb, or ... nothing, you go Mahkleb.

I'm not seeing the shtick of this race really (the self-petrifaction thing), but I'm in favor of a "<--- Statue Form Goes Here" race.

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Post Friday, 31st May 2013, 16:26

Re: New Species: Grotesk

The ability is useful when you come across the early orc warrior with a glaive or hill giant who still has enough raw power to smash your character into dust. I didn't really use it much later on after that, and you definitely don't want to use it against packs as you might need more time than you expect to go through them all. As already stated it's similar to berserk in this regard, make sure you know you can finish the fight quickly before you use it.

That said it is useful, just not game changing. My test character eventually bit the dust when I thought fighting mara would be a good idea. I was rather overpowered up until that point, but I have to really remember all my overpowered characters get overconfident and die anyways, so stop considering them overpowered. Two bolts of fire and a hit from a demon whip of draining in one turn from the 3 copies of mara and no one's going to be in good shape.

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Post Friday, 31st May 2013, 18:36

Re: New Species: Grotesk

I think I prefer the name Gargoyle, or even Grotesque. Grotesk sounds like plant fertilizer.

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Post Friday, 31st May 2013, 18:59

Re: New Species: Grotesk

moocowmoocow wrote:I think I prefer the name Gargoyle, or even Grotesque. Grotesk sounds like plant fertilizer.


  Code:
Grotesk -> Gargoyle

Since they're unliving, there's no point in calling them something else.


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Post Friday, 31st May 2013, 23:54

Re: New Species: Grotesk

If the purpose of self-petrification is to reduce damage taken, it should probably not kill your EV. That makes it very counterproductive with a character with more than something like 14 EV. It seemed to help against ogres when my EV was 12. In Lair with 15-17 EV against spiny frogs and elephants it made things worse.

Reducing EV makes sense thematically along with the whole "slowing down and petrifying" thing so I guess I'm not actually asking for not reducing EV, but for any kind of buff or two to make this ability worth using.

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Post Saturday, 1st June 2013, 06:00

Re: New Species: Grotesk

I feel like Self-Petrification in the long run is a pretty superfluous and gimpy version of Statue Form. It can be a good panic button in the early-game, but beyond that it's simply worse than many other options.

I would much prefer to see the Self Petrify ability removed in favor of making Statue Form, and possibly Stoneskin and Petrify spells single-school Earth Magic for Gargoyles, and giving them an improved Statue Form. (Slow effect reduced to a movement delay, auxiliary attacks) Also, despite the Self Petrify ability being removed you will still be able to gain the desired effects by casting Petrify on yourself.

Thematically speaking, this all fits very well. It also deals with the synergistic problem of a UC-favoring species being bad at TMs, which is almost always trained alongside UC. Finally, adding synergy to Statue form encourages Gargoyles to increase their Strength due to Statue Form scaling off of it, whereas Blade Hands users have the tendency to favor Dexterity instead.
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Post Saturday, 1st June 2013, 06:44

Re: New Species: Grotesk

I'm enjoying Gr the most of the new races, because they really are mostly normal and less gimmicky than they seem. I'm currently playing a GrMo of Okawaru.

Self-petrify is an ability that I'll probably need a lot of practise to figure out when to use. I used it on my first worm, when stairdancing with zombies, and when I opened a door to a 7-headed hydra in a vault pre-lair. I think losing the shield during the extended petrification is pretty weird - is it intended?

One thing that's surprisingly interesting is Talons 2 - I've been forgoing +0 boots because of that (especially when I had slaying), but would probably wear +2 boots. I'm not sure if that's right, either way, but it's a nice choice.
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Post Saturday, 1st June 2013, 11:14

Re: New Species: Grotesk

You don't lose the shield, just the ability to move it fast enough to block anything. If you are using a shield of fire resistance, you still keep the resistance while you're petrified, even though your sh value drops to 0.

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Post Saturday, 1st June 2013, 19:02

Re: New Species: Grotesk

Sedrahl wrote:I feel like Self-Petrification in the long run is a pretty superfluous and gimpy version of Statue Form. It can be a good panic button in the early-game, but beyond that it's simply worse than many other options.

I would much prefer to see the Self Petrify ability removed in favor of making Statue Form, and possibly Stoneskin and Petrify spells single-school Earth Magic for Gargoyles, and giving them an improved Statue Form. (Slow effect reduced to a movement delay, auxiliary attacks) Also, despite the Self Petrify ability being removed you will still be able to gain the desired effects by casting Petrify on yourself.

Thematically speaking, this all fits very well. It also deals with the synergistic problem of a UC-favoring species being bad at TMs, which is almost always trained alongside UC. Finally, adding synergy to Statue form encourages Gargoyles to increase their Strength due to Statue Form scaling off of it, whereas Blade Hands users have the tendency to favor Dexterity instead.

/signed

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Post Saturday, 1st June 2013, 20:08

Re: New Species: Grotesk

I think self-petrify would be useful but has been nerfed a little too much. Losing EV is okay, but it really needs some sort of boost to make up for it. Whether that's AC or +dam or something else, it needs something.

Also why on earth do gargoyles get stat rot after being petrified? Isn't the ability already nerfed enough as it is?

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Post Saturday, 1st June 2013, 20:25

Re: New Species: Grotesk

I think the best thing I heard was someone on irc saying "a defensive boost followed by a defensive vulnerability isn't interesting, while an offensive boost followed by defensive vulnerability is" or something like that. Obviously that sounds a lot like berserk but berserk is an interesting and good mechanic.

Personally I'm opposed to making statue form single school or such for gargoyles because special-casing things like that seems like bad design to me (I hate it with dragon form and draconians also).

It also deals with the synergistic problem of a UC-favoring species being bad at TMs, which is almost always trained alongside UC

did you make this up or do you have data? i'm pretty sure most trolls don't learn transmutations

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Post Saturday, 1st June 2013, 20:49

Re: New Species: Grotesk

imho add a regeneration effect to petrify. Probably just a standard 1hp/sec regen, same as the spell, takes effect as soon as you start petrifying and lasts until the turn you turn back to flesh.
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Post Sunday, 2nd June 2013, 01:28

Re: New Species: Grotesk

WalkerBoh wrote:Also why on earth do gargoyles get stat rot after being petrified? Isn't the ability already nerfed enough as it is?


The stat rot is predicated on the fraction of HP lost to the biggest hit you took while petrified. The ability is otherwise costless.

I'm all for making it more interesting.

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Post Sunday, 2nd June 2013, 01:52

Re: New Species: Grotesk

crate wrote:I think the best thing I heard was someone on irc saying "a defensive boost followed by a defensive vulnerability isn't interesting, while an offensive boost followed by defensive vulnerability is" or something like that. Obviously that sounds a lot like berserk but berserk is an interesting and good mechanic.

Ha yeah I was saying that. I think self-petrify isn't working as is because the downside pretty much cancels the upside (damage is reduced per hit but you're going to take a lot more hits).

Also, it would be similar to berserk, but I don't see that as an issue. Having a weaker version of berserk as a species attribute is unique.

Brendan: I generally hate stat rot, but it seems to me that being petrified is in itself quite a heavy penalty for what you get right now. The ability would need to be quite a bit stronger to be worth incurring stat rot on every use.

On a semi-unrelated note it should be more obvious that being petrified reduces damage from all sources. I know some people I spoke to were confused because they weren't aware damage was reduced while petrifying.

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Post Sunday, 2nd June 2013, 02:13

Re: New Species: Grotesk

I think self-petrify comments are missing the basic benefits of Gargoyles: an HP robust earth and conjurations species. Yes please.
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Post Sunday, 2nd June 2013, 02:33

Re: New Species: Grotesk

whyyyy is necromaner suggested background with -3 necro??

i was all like fuck yeah time too kill dudes@@@@@ and picked suggested background and yeah pain with high hp is kinda cool but you can't just paindudes all game.

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Post Sunday, 2nd June 2013, 04:35

Re: New Species: Grotesk

WalkerBoh wrote:stat rot


The point of stat drain is to prevent you from using the ability in every fight. It does accomplish that. Not disagreeing that the ability needs to be better but that's beside the point.

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Post Sunday, 2nd June 2013, 07:10

Re: New Species: Grotesk

crate wrote:Personally I'm opposed to making statue form single school or such for gargoyles because special-casing things like that seems like bad design to me (I hate it with dragon form and draconians also).

It also deals with the synergistic problem of a UC-favoring species being bad at TMs, which is almost always trained alongside UC

did you make this up or do you have data? i'm pretty sure most trolls don't learn transmutations


I have to admit that my statement about UC "almost always" trained alongside Tm was guilty of being anecdote and a poor choice of words, however you cannot deny the obvious synergistic bond they share. Trolls are a special case because they have very little INT, and horrible aptitudes in all forms of spellcasting, two traits that they do NOT share with Gargoyles. Thus, trying to compare them in this sense is not appropriate.

Admittedly, making those spells single-school isn't even necessary. -2 Tm is not terrible and +3 Earth Magic does a good job of picking up the slack for the purposes of learning the relevant spells. (To be honest, single-school statue form with +3 apt would probably be much too easy to learn.) However, I do feel that giving Gargoyles an improved Statue Form is more than acceptable, and no more of a special case than slowed Petrification or a Self-Petrification ability. The only reason I see for Self-Petrification as an ability is that it can be used by Trog followers, however I think that limiting them for that purpose wastes their good INT and magic aptitudes.

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Post Sunday, 2nd June 2013, 14:58

Re: New Species: Grotesk

Is the abbreviation still Gr or will it be changed to Ga for Gargoyle?

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Post Sunday, 2nd June 2013, 15:33

Re: New Species: Grotesk

If you change it, change Mf to Me, Op to Oc, and Vp to Va while you're at it. I think Gr is fine.
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Post Sunday, 2nd June 2013, 15:39

Re: New Species: Grotesk

Gr is Grrrrreat!
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Post Sunday, 2nd June 2013, 17:09

Re: New Species: Grotesk

WalkerBoh wrote:If you change it, change Mf to Me, Op to Oc, and Vp to Va while you're at it. I think Gr is fine.

These all have the second letter as the first letter of some syllable in the name. By this logic we should have Gg.

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Post Sunday, 2nd June 2013, 18:44

Re: New Species: Grotesk

So it's still Gr?

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Post Sunday, 2nd June 2013, 23:42

Re: New Species: Grotesk

SE apts:
>Fighting +1
>UC +1
>Dodging +2
>Tmut: +3
>Earth: +1
>Charms: -2
Total: +6

Gr:
>Fighting +1
>UC +1
>Dodging -1
>Tmut: -1
>Earth: +3
>Charms: -2
Total: +1


So, why did the only interesting thing about rockthings, the +2UC, got nerfed? Now they are just ultra nerfed sludge elves with a useless ability. At least tengus get an interesting theme and a powerful ability.


IMO, they are just a little less boring than felids, which isn't very hard. But I'm not a greatplayer, so it's not like my opinion matters.

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Post Monday, 3rd June 2013, 00:14

Re: New Species: Grotesk

Why don't you compare their HP gain too?

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