Long Blades effect idea

[some12fat2move]

Concept:
Dueling is a passive effect for long blades that will increase your damage when you land consecutive hits on the same target (making it sort of the antithesis of axe cleaving). Thematically speaking, it represents forcing your opponent into a compromising stance with a series of well-placed attacks. You can stack a maximum of 5 hits on the target (I think this would be an appropriate number and in tiles it could be displayed with tally marks, but a different number could be used), at which point your attacks on that target will have the maximum dueling bonus. Performing any action other than melee attacking the target (this includes moving, casting a spell, using a scroll or potion, attacking a different target, etc) will cause you to lose all hits on that target for the purpose of dueling bonus. Missing the target will not cause you to lose your hits on that target but will not gain you a hit either.

Formula:

  Code:

D = d^((h+1)*0.25)
variables:
D represents final damage (after dueling modifier)
d represents would-be damage (before dueling modifier)
h represents the number of consecutive hits on the target and caps at 5


Thoughts?

[dpeg]

1. Overlap with constriction.
2. No encouragement for positioning etc.

The one I liked best so far was "glancing blow": when you move such that an enemy is adjacent before and after the move, you get to make a free attack.

[some12fat2move]

I see

[varsovie]

The one I liked best so far was "glancing blow": when you move such that an enemy is adjacent before and after the move, you get to make a free attack.

If you look at : http://ddrogue.wikidot.com/special-moves

Is it like open ground attack or multiple opponent?

[dpeg]

varsovie: I am not entirely sure, but seems to be like open ground attack without the restriction on clockwise movement.

[evilmike]

1. Overlap with constriction.
2. No encouragement for positioning etc.

No.

1. Constriction is a damage over time effect, it does not reward consecutive attacks. It also continues to work while you cast spells, attack other targets, etc. The only limitation is on your movement. The proposed weapon effect here is nothing like this, since it requires multiple attacks in a row to work, and forces you to concentrate on the same target, without doing anything else. It also lets the opponent move away freely. Saying this overlaps with constriction would be like saying constriction overlaps with sticky flame, or cleaving overlaps with devastator.

2. This will encourage players to stand their ground against enemies, and maybe think twice before using potions, spells, etc. And when a monster is using a long blade, the player might be encouraged to take a step back once and a while, to reset the enemy's bonus. So it definitely encourages positioning, both on the offence and defense.

I've seen the type of effect some12fat2move is proposing. Sil has it in some form (it's called "concentration" there), and I'm pretty sure I've seen it in another roguelike too. It works and it's a lot of fun. It would be a great weapon move in Crawl.

[dpeg]

evilmike: Alright, thanks for clarification!

So let's use this in Crawl. I am not sure whether it's better for clubs or for swords, but that's a secondary matter (flavour could be bent either way, I think).

[Davion Fuxa]

I like the idea behind the effect; I don't think that Long Blades should be what get this effect though. This sound like it would better fit the use with Quarterstaves and Lajatangs.

I'd rather see Long Blades left as vanilla weapons with improved statistics and to the same extent Mace & Flail; for general purposes in combat (ignoring Stabbing here) it gives one weapon that can be crosstrained which is just about clobbering or finesse without any special thematic gimmicks going with it.

[roctavian]

I think it would be great as either long blades or M&F, but if it's M&F then we should use the word "clobbering" despite Davian Fuxa using that term differently in the previous post.

[Davion Fuxa]

Not that I don't mind the term being used, but another term to throw in for this effect might be 'Wailing'; especially if we leave this idea just for Long Blades and it sounds better with Whips since they aren't clunky weapons like the rest of the family.

[reaver]

This is a good idea, but I agree with Davion Fuxa that it would be better for Staves than for Long Blades. I haven't really seen a decent melee proposal for Staves yet, but there a plenty for Long Blades and Maces & Flails. There might not be another Staves effect that is as fun and elegant as this one.

Also, here's the description of concentration from the Sil manual (http://www.amirrorclear.net/flowers/game/sil/Sil-111-Manual.pdf)

Concentration
• Gives you a +1 bonus to attack for each consecutive round spent attacking a particular enemy (to a maximum of half your perception).
• Spending a turn waiting/blocking (‘5’ or ‘z’) doesn’t break concentration.

"Perception" is a skill in Sil.

[mumra]

I was thinking about all this on the way to the shop. This is my take:

Maces & Flails: For these, the OP's idea works best for me. The idea of pounding a single target over and over until it stops moving thematically sits very well with clubs. For flails we can call it momentum, for whips make up some other flavour or perhaps come up with a slightly different effect for them.

Staves: dpeg mentioned the idea of an effect which happens when you move adjacently to a target. I can imagine this with staves - the idea of the player dancing around monsters with their staff spinning so fast they can make glancing blows in passing. This could allow striking multiple targets with careful positioning, and/or (possibly) deflect some incoming blows.

Long blades: in part I think Davion has a good point that we do need to leave some weapons "vanilla". However there are still short swords. Anyway the idea I have for long blades is a "charge" or "first strike" mechanic. This works if you take a step directly towards a monster and arrive in a square adjacent to it - doing that automatically gets you a powerful first strike. It's quite simple and won't make a lot of difference to most fights but in some situations it encourages you to charge towards a monster rather than wait for them to come to you. Diagrams might help:

  Code:

a.    b.
..... ..k..
..k.. .....
..... .....
..@.. ..@..
..... .....


In diagram (a) the player can step North and get a first strike on the k.

In diagram (b) the player steps North, the the k steps south to land adjacent to the player. So the player doesn't get the first strike. The player should wait a turn and then step forward.

I think a simple mechanic like this fits a general principle of keeping swords elegant and simple whilst making long blades at least a little different.

[nicolae]

That reminds me of how rapiers work in Brogue, if you take a step towards a monster you automatically do a strong attck against them.

[Bim]

I like the idea, but I'd prefer this for M&F, just because the 'clobbering' flavour makes more sense and you can't really 'duel' with a sheep (even if that is a hilarious image) - but you get what I mean, with animals duelling just seems strange. However, I've always thought that a 'staggering blow' idea was great for M&F

I'd prefer Long blades to have a 'critical hit' mechanic of some sort as that seems to fit the flavour of long blades better - something like the 'first strike' idea or even a lunge of some sort.

I don't think there's any need to have 'vanilla' weapons really, it doesn't make them more interesting or give any sort of choice other than the initial one of deciding a weapon class (as in, I doubt you're picking a weapon class JUST for the special move (and if you are we should tone it down)). I'd also caution against having weapons in the same class having different attacks - that to me sounds needlessly complicated and a lot of balancing.

[mumra]

I don't think there's any need to have 'vanilla' weapons really, it doesn't make them more interesting or give any sort of choice other than the initial one of deciding a weapon class (as in, I doubt you're picking a weapon class JUST for the special move (and if you are we should tone it down)).

Well, the point of these effects is differentiation. Once all weapon types have effects, a weapon that has no effect is a differentiation, and it's a nice choice for a player who just wants everything really simple. Also, the implementation for this "no-effect" brand is way easier than any other proposals

I'd also caution against having weapons in the same class having different attacks - that to me sounds needlessly complicated and a lot of balancing.

There is already a precedent for this with daggers though. Of course it'd be silly if every subclass did something different but it might make sense in some cases; whips and maces are very different objects physically speaking. Anyway sure, it is hard enough coming up with these mechanics anyway without further complicating things

[nicolae]

One idea I had -- though I don't know if it'd be more appropriate for a brand, a weapon special move, or a badideas entry -- is that if you miss an attack on an enemy, if your next move is another attack against that enemy, that move has its delay reduced by one, cumulative down to mindelay or so. (Variants: A successful attack makes your next move quicker. Or: If your attack misses, it takes less time, though that would require determining the attack's success before deciding how long it takes, and I don't know how the turn timeline works.)

[galehar]

Anyway the idea I have for long blades is a "charge" or "first strike" mechanic.

This has been suggested before but it has an issue. You can repeatedly charge a slower enemy by tediously stepping back and forth. Once you have swiftness and/or haste, most enemies are slower.

I like the OP's proposal for long blades. It's good to keep M&F the vanilla weapon type. Then, we don't have to figure out what to do with whips
Short Blades have stabbing and Staves have magical ones (enhancers), I don't think they need anything else on top of it.

[Bim]

All very true, especially about daggers already being a different subclass, but that has always been quite a distinct subclass (which used to have it's own skill) which is very defined and there are only two subclasses within short blades. By this, I mean that whips, flails and maces are all very physically different and are used very differently, but having three subclass attacks would be a bit complicated (as you pointed out).

I guess all I'm saying is that i'd prefer it to be a bit broader and overlook the differences (as, lets say we used a phrase like 'bear down on' instead of clobbering, that could be easily used for whips/maces and flails) rather than have some subclasses with effects and some not.

[galehar]

Here is how the effect works.

[mumra]

Anyway the idea I have for long blades is a "charge" or "first strike" mechanic.

This has been suggested before but it has an issue. You can repeatedly charge a slower enemy by tediously stepping back and forth. Once you have swiftness and/or haste, most enemies are slower.

True although it's less bad than the situation with polearms, since at least with first strike you have to put yourself in a situation where you might still get hit by the monster if you didn't kill it. Anyway yeah, I don't know if this can be fixed elegantly.

[Davion Fuxa]

Anyway the idea I have for long blades is a "charge" or "first strike" mechanic.

This has been suggested before but it has an issue. You can repeatedly charge a slower enemy by tediously stepping back and forth. Once you have swiftness and/or haste, most enemies are slower.

I like the OP's proposal for long blades. It's good to keep M&F the vanilla weapon type. Then, we don't have to figure out what to do with whips
Short Blades have stabbing and Staves have magical ones (enhancers), I don't think they need anything else on top of it.

Not that I'm for the idea but one thing to keep in mind is that Whips don't necessarily need to have anything made special about them - I mean if the Quarterstaves and Lajatangs are left alone, the Whips can be left alone. Of course, on the flipside this mechanic could apply to Whips as well - it isn't like the mechanic wouldn't fit the Whip type weapons anyways since cumulative hits from a Whip would theoretically hurt more and more as they were landed without the target resting.

[jejorda2]

Not that I don't mind the term being used, but another term to throw in for this effect might be 'Wailing'; especially if we leave this idea just for Long Blades and it sounds better with Whips since they aren't clunky weapons like the rest of the family.

To "wail" is to scream mournfully. A "wale" is is a long mark in the flesh, like one caused by a whip. Other long things, like gunwales on a ship, are named for that. The second word is what has been blurred into any prolonged beating, even without a whip.

[prozacelf]

And here I've been using the term "whaling" to describe the action. I still like it though. Gives the impression of getting hit with something huge.

Edit:minmay beat me to it

[nicolae]

And here I've been using the term "whaling" to describe the action. I still like it though. Gives the impression of getting hit with something huge.

Edit:minmay beat me to it

whaling is what the merfolk do when yo momma visits shoals




wait dammit this isn't the ur're mom jokes thread

[Davion Fuxa]

I actually didn't realize that 'Whale On or Wail on' was Slang until I looked it up. Anyhow one thing to note is that the concept fits Bludgeoning Weapons better - looking up some definitions you might call it 'Thrashing' which can fit the whole category well enough.

[mumra]

According to some research at: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/archive/index.php/t-456849.html

The correct spellings are "whale" or "whaling".

From the Oxford English Dictionary:

Perhaps orig. = to thrash with a whalebone whip

I'm actually having a go at experimentally implementing this attack. Perhaps we need a Whalebone Whip unrand as well...

[mumra]

Ok, I got this working. I've pushed it to a public branch called "meleemoves" in the main Crawl repository if anyone wants to have a go; it definitely needs testing and feedback.

There was some discussion in ##crawl-dev about "whaling" not being the right word. Personally it seemed strange at first but I got used to it after typing it a bunch of times in the code. If anyone has other suggestions please make them! There are "thrashing", "flogging", but they seem more appropriate for whips; maybe there should be different verbs for different subtypes.

There is also no status indicator about your bonus or which monster is being whaled upon. For now you can only see what's going on in the melee messages. You will see "You whale on the ogre." when the bonus damage first kicks in.

Basic damage is now 90% of old M&F damage, you get a 10% increase with each consecutive strike (if it does non-zero damage), up to a maximum of 150%. I wanted to keep the numbers simple so it's easier to see what's going on in testing, and the OP's formula scaled up far too much. This can always be tweaked later, and it's easy to move the effect over to longblades if maces aren't the right thing.

The commit notes should explain the rest:

  Code:

* Special effect for Maces and Flails: "whaling on"

This is a simple implementation based on the discussion at:
https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=7964

Better vocabulary might be needed to describe this effect.

The formula is simpler than in the thread: d*(9*hits)/10

Where 'hits' is the number of consecutive hits up to a
maximum of 6.

The level of bonus is indicated by the number of exclamations
in the "whaling on" melee message, with !!! for
maximum bonus.


[nicolae]

There was some discussion in ##crawl-dev about "whaling" not being the right word. Personally it seemed strange at first but I got used to it after typing it a bunch of times in the code. If anyone has other suggestions please make them! There are "thrashing", "flogging", but they seem more appropriate for whips; maybe there should be different verbs for different subtypes.

I like "pummel" for maces and "thrashing" for whips.

[mumra]

I like "pummel" for maces and "thrashing" for whips.

"Pummeling" does pretty much work for everything except whips. I came up with "flaying". Maybe this could induce a bleeding status too?

[nicolae]

I like "pummel" for maces and "thrashing" for whips.

"Pummeling" does pretty much work for everything except whips. I came up with "flaying". Maybe this could induce a bleeding status too?

Bleeding sounds appropriate. Is the bleeding effect significant though? The learndb says that bleeding, and I quote, "sucks".

[prozacelf]

I still like whaling, but pummeling makes sense too. Flaying works for whips....maybe only a bleed against unarmored opponents? Since the word literally refers to removing skin.

[mumra]

I like "pummel" for maces and "thrashing" for whips.

"Pummeling" does pretty much work for everything except whips. I came up with "flaying". Maybe this could induce a bleeding status too?

Bleeding sounds appropriate. Is the bleeding effect significant though? The learndb says that bleeding, and I quote, "sucks".

It's a pretty minor and insignificant side effect, sure.

[mumra]

I still like whaling, but pummeling makes sense too. Flaying works for whips....maybe only a bleed against unarmored opponents? Since the word literally refers to removing skin.

Well, somehow you're getting past that armour and damaging the sack of meat within so it still makes sense for it to get flayed ... But maybe the effect should only process above a certain amount of final damage anyway.

[prozacelf]

Actually, given how minor an effect bleeding is anyway, I don't know that it really matters. It'd add a little flavor but that's about it.

[Bim]

I thought whaling on for M&F was ok until it was 'you whale on the ogre' which to me sounds very strange and a bit uncomfortable usage. I know it's grammatically correct, but it's just weird.

How about lacerate? That's the usual terminology for blunt force trauma which causes bleeding (pretty much any blunt force causes this - especially with something like a mace) and it's the term used in crime reports and so forth so it's pretty standard usage. Also, 'You lacerate the Ogre' sounds more powerful and focussed - whaling on sounds a bit sort of messy and bar-fight'ish. Lacerate also works for whips as well!

Heres a link the the trauma terminologies:
http://www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedicin ... tology.pdf

[nicolae]

I thought whaling on for M&F was ok until it was 'you whale on the ogre' which to me sounds very strange and a bit uncomfortable usage. I know it's grammatically correct, but it's just weird.

How about lacerate? That's the usual terminology for blunt force trauma which causes bleeding (pretty much any blunt force causes this - especially with something like a mace) and it's the term used in crime reports and so forth so it's pretty standard usage. Also, 'You lacerate the Ogre' sounds more powerful and focussed - whaling on sounds a bit sort of messy and bar-fight'ish. Lacerate also works for whips as well!

Heres a link the the trauma terminologies:
http://www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedicin ... tology.pdf

kind of wish you'd have mentioned that it appears to be from a forensics textbook with illustrative pictures

lacerate is a good verb too, though i'm not sure we need to be medically accurate with our vocabulary choices

[prozacelf]

I'd say that most of your barfight type weapons would fall under the purview of maces & flails anyway...

[ontoclasm]

I'm pretty sure you can thrash someone with a club or mace. Also, this seems like it'll be a lot of message clutter, since (nearly?) every single melee attack you ever make will print a second line. If you get surrounded by club-wielding orcs you'll get "The orc is whaling on you!!!" half a dozen times a turn. Maybe we could print a message just on the second attack (i.e. when you start whaling or whatever) and the sixth (when the bonus reaches its maximum)?

[mumra]

I'm pretty sure you can thrash someone with a club or mace. Also, this seems like it'll be a lot of message clutter, since (nearly?) every single melee attack you ever make will print a second line. If you get surrounded by club-wielding orcs you'll get "The orc is whaling on you!!!" half a dozen times a turn. Maybe we could print a message just on the second attack (i.e. when you start whaling or whatever) and the sixth (when the bonus reaches its maximum)?

It's already partly like this, the message only displays once you're actually doing bonus damage, i.e. the second hit onwards.

In my limited testing the messages weren't a problem but with a big group of orcs or something it could definitely get a bit messy. On the other hand, 2 consecutive hits on the same monster isn't such a common scenario as you might think and it might only be relevant at times when you're getting loads of follower message spam anyway (e.g. a big Beogh army).

Anyway, another approach is to roll whatever terminology into the base melee message, or just make them print on a single line. Or, status icons can be used. Anyway, I don't really want to mess with this until after more testing and feedback but it's something I'll keep in mind. I am kind of waiting until after the tournament then properly test this along with the Skald rework

[Sandman25]

I suggest to have different messages for whaling start and for getting maximized whaling. It would allow players to customize which messages they want to ignore/color-code/force_more.

[mumra]

I suggest to have different messages for whaling start and for getting maximized whaling. It would allow players to customize which messages they want to ignore/color-code/force_more.

Maybe also a message for when you break the sequence.

[roctavian]

still holding onto "clobbering" (v.) 1. To strike violently and repeatedly; batter or maul.

[njvack]

It has to be "whale" so I can go whale on some krakens. SHOALS HERE I COME

[Lasty]

It has to be "whale" so I can go whale on some krakens. SHOALS HERE I COME

"You whale on the ogre" is pretty good, but I think we need to mix up our oceanic battery messages a little:

"You go after the ogre with a porpoise."
"You krill the ogre."
"You deal with the ogre as you do with all your anemonies."
"You clam-ber all over the ogre."
"You sea horse around with the ogre."

These things just write themselves!

[jejorda2]

Reaching, cleaving, and stabbing change how you position yourself so that you can take advantage of the weapon effect. Waling would make standing in a corridor so you can deal with enemies one at a time even more attractive, since you lose the waling bonus when you attack something else.

Maybe the bonus damage needs to increase with the number of enemies that are adjacent to you?

[Davion Fuxa]

Having enemies near you makes it too similar to cleaving.

[Arrhythmia]

Reaching, cleaving, and stabbing change how you position yourself so that you can take advantage of the weapon effect. Waling would make standing in a corridor so you can deal with enemies one at a time even more attractive, since you lose the waling bonus when you attack something else.

Maybe the bonus damage needs to increase with the number of enemies that are adjacent to you?

2. This will encourage players to stand their ground against enemies, and maybe think twice before using potions, spells, etc. And when a monster is using a long blade, the player might be encouraged to take a step back once and a while, to reset the enemy's bonus. So it definitely encourages positioning, both on the offence and defense.

[VargrVeum]

iirc - Harrying is the general term for repeatedly attacking/beating an opponent into submission - would cut through the difficulties in using different terms for the same action coming from different types of weapon.

I'm divided on the idea of special effects - on one hand I like the idea of added diversity and the choice of weapon actively influencing the player's tactics, but i wonder if passive effects might be counterintuitive? On the whole, I think I'd like to see each weapon used in a different way - it would offer the melee player a little more diversity, and perhaps make the weapon selection process more interesting than a relatively simple "optimum damage" based decision.