Jewellery Rebalancing

[danharaj]

So there's a lot of jewellery that is pretty weak or, in fact nearly useless. dpeg has mentioned the idea of amulets being more strategically oriented while rings should be tactical switches. Amulet of Faith accomplishes this by having a large piety cost for removing it. Gourmand attempts to accomplish it by ramping up its effect over a few hundred turns (it doesn't really matter though). Guardian spirit drains all of your mana when you equip it to prevent it from being a beneficial swap in most situations. There are some rings that are either nearly useless, like sustenance, or extremely weak considering the opportunity cost of the much better rings. My proposal is to merge some ring and amulet properties into a smaller set of amulets. The amulets would have two effects: A modest effect that occurs immediately, and a more substantial effect that requires you to attune to the amulet. Attunement might take a time around the same as current gourmand. The goal is to make amulets more fun while reducing the number of rings that seldom get used and also to differentiate amulets from rings somewhat more, since currently the usual use of amulets is as a swap to deal with the annoying non-hp attack of the current thing you're fighting. Here are a few examples of the concept. I'm sure better ones can be found.

Amulet of Health: rP+ instantly, when attuned, grants regeneration
Amulet of Purity: rMut instantly, when attuned, grants up to sustAb++
Amulet of Warding: rN+, Ward instantly, Clarity when attuned
Amulet of Preservation: rCorr instantly, conservation when attuned

As a side-note, the fact that things like slaying and resistances can spawn on randart amulets really does turn them into another ring slot. I am not sure if people find this problematic?

[Kintak]

Part of the problem with the "near useless" jewelry is all the micromanagement it takes for certain things. Ring of regen and ring of sust are cool and all, but switching them in and out to get their meager benefits is the type of grinding hassle that DCSS seems to try to avoid.
Anyone strongly opposed to adding something like Diablo 2's charms? Something that takes up a backpack slot and some weight but doesn't require micromanagement for the small buff it gives. They could easily replace ring of regen and sustenance, and maybe allow for a few other ideas that would be too weak or too trying to be used as a ring or amulet.

[Bim]

I remember someone bringing up the idea of non-wearable magic items and it was shot down pretty hard unfortunately. It would either mean that the magic items were really weak (and therefore add a lot of trash) or be just the same as rings but you'd be able to have loads.

I think moving towards more strategic amulets is key, I've put forward a proposal for amulets that boost specific skills over time which I hope addresses some of the long term problems. I like the idea of gaining something instantly, and then gaining more later, but I feel some of your amulets are just rings added to amulets which would mean even more redundant jewellery.

[dpeg]

danharaj: Interesting ideas. A few quick comments: The gourmand mechanic was not really meant to turn the amulet into something strategic; rather, it was an interface improvement that prevented players from swapping in Gourmand for *every* snack (which is exactly what we did back in the day). That mechanic may have paved the way for the other, more strategic amulet ideas.
I am not sure I agree on your assessment of ring powers. At least, I seem to think more highly of Regeneration and Clarity than you do. It is certainly true, however, that some amulet powers (Clarity, Resistance to Mutations/Corrosion) are very tactical. By the way, that amulet-vs-ring distinction was never formalised or anything. It's always just been floating around (and was brought up by Eino, incidentally).

It's a bit sad to see how Brogue does so much better in all of the regards you bring up. For example, Brogue's rings can be enchanted, which is a very thought-inducing matter.

[Bim]

How dare thou utter the name of Brogue on the DCSS forum! BEGONE HEATHEN!
But no, I really like the idea of amulets being fundamentally different from rings, especially with growing more powerful over time (as you 'attune' to them) as otherwise we may as well have three generic jewellery slots, which isn't as exciting.
Possibly the problem is a lack of status effects - as in, we may need to think of new powers for amulets to have rather than repeating the old mechanics. I wouldn't be opposed to seeing an amulet of repel missiles (which increases in strength over time - never as good as deflect though) or amulet of shroud which in time also increases evasion. Obviously these are just non-balanced ideas, but I feel it'd be good to think outside the box rather than just strapping ring powers to amulets.

[rchandra]

Hats are not fundamentally different from boots, why aren't they both 'aux armour' slots? Yet having the choice between (MR hat or Int hat) and (flying boots or stealth boots) is more interesting than choosing two generic armour from (MR, Int, flying, stealth).

Similarly there's nothing wrong with most amulets just being like 'ring of conservation' et cetera, as they are now.

[mumra]

An idea I thought was workable was giving some amulets an aura. The aura starts at 0 radius and increases over time. When you remove the amulet the radius decreases over time, similar to when silence expires. So a stasis amulet would mean nothing in the radius can teleport etc. but neither can you, and you can't just swap out in an emergency. A warding aura damages summoned creatures every turn within the radius but also prevents you from summoning.

[nago]

Stasis is already pretty bad now - if it would work with a increasing aura it would been totally useless: if I have no other meaning to block that eyeball paralysis than stasis, I need that working on next turn, not 10+ random turns later. And no sane player would ever wear stasis (even in places where giant eyeball are common spawn, like slimes) to get that aura, because renouncing to blink, teleport and haste for even some turns after the amulet has been removed just to eventually prevent a not guaranteed threat is a suicide.

Similarly, that warding aura must be *really* strong to make warding amulet worth wearing - like good chance (50%+) to block every enemy attack (including torment, smiting, ...) and maybe that active damage too would be nice - because summoning like now are generally in two categories: so weak I don't care how much are summoned or so dangerous (annoying in case of nexgwhatever) the first thing I do is to run/teleport away and return 100+ turns later. A more explicit example: if that DE summoner calls 10 smammals and a couple of easy 3, I can't care less if they take damage while I smash his head - I can easily dispatch them after anyway. If that DE demonologist calls two fiends, I can't care less if they loses half of health, even in 5 turns, because I could be tormented and hellfired to death three times meanwhile, the thing I'd do anyway would be to run away.

A solution that I believe could work is to make warding actually block summoners' spells: like antimagic, if they try to summon they lose turn(s), but with an aura effect. Still, I'd considering worth wearing that amulet maybe in a couple of places (elf:3, maybe against mnoleg and other unique lords,...)

[danharaj]

I am not sure I agree on your assessment of ring powers. At least, I seem to think more highly of Regeneration and Clarity than you do.

Oh, I did not mean to imply regeneration is weak. Regeneration is a pretty strong ring, but there are more pressing concerns much of the time, like a resistance or slaying. The problem with regeneration is that you should always swap to it after a fight to take less time resting. I think that's kind of tedious so regen shouldn't be swappable. rPoison is kind of weak compared to the other resistances you can put on a ring slot, so I think bundling it with regeneration would be ok.

[snow]

Regeneration isn't that weak especially when you don't have much stealth.

Sometimes you fall down a shaft or something and need to heal quickly before a monster comes into view. Also it helps with poison and (I believe) nausea.

[BlackSheep]

It does help with nausea, and more importantly, sickness. The only affect it has on poison is that you'll regenerate faster than you take damage unless you're very badly poisoned, in which case you'd just cure it.

Regeneration is a weak ring because other rings are stronger, not because it doesn't have an effect. It saves in-game time, which has a minor impact on piety, but the real time impact of resting with regen is negligible, so it's more a convenience.

[Iniera]

Regeneration is a weak ring because other rings are stronger, not because it doesn't have an effect. It saves in-game time, which has a minor impact on piety, but the real time impact of resting with regen is negligible, so it's more a convenience.

I believe this has been brought up before, but does this assertion hold true for all sources of regeneration and the fact that they stack? I know that TLA isn't very good and stacking regeneration for regeneration's sake isn't good, but I've had surprisingly good (or just noticeable) results with any of: Ds with PbP in branches where it's applicable, Sk/Ne with a ring of regeneration, or just plain being a troll. Hand of Trog is also great for DD/Mu, although both of those species have their own unique relationships with regeneration.

If regeneration is just a convenience regardless of source to which there are always more desirable options (q!curing, G<5, worshipping Makhleb), shouldn't we consider overhauling/axing it?

[mikee]

I believe this has been brought up before, but does this assertion hold true for all sources of regeneration and the fact that they stack? I know that TLA isn't very good and stacking regeneration for regeneration's sake isn't good, but I've had surprisingly good (or just noticeable) results with any of: Ds with PbP in branches where it's applicable, Sk/Ne with a ring of regeneration, or just plain being a troll. Hand of Trog is also great for DD/Mu, although both of those species have their own unique relationships with regeneration.

If regeneration is just a convenience regardless of source to which there are always more desirable options (q!curing, G<5, worshipping Makhleb), shouldn't we consider overhauling/axing it?

from http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/bots:

  Code:

The base regeneration rate is your maximum hitpoints / 3. If this number is over 20, then divide the result by two and add ten. For example, 100 max health results in a regen rate of 26. RR accumulates every turn and for every 100 RR you gain, you regenerate 1 hp. For 1 hp per turn, 540 health is needed. For 1 hp per 2 turns, 240.
A ring adds 40 to your rr, troll leather armour 30, player mutation 20 per level, and the status effect (spell) 100. What this means is that a single ring of regen or piece of troll leather armour effectively doubles your healing rate (or better) for most characters.

I don't have any specific comments on regeneration in general or on its sources, but it seems to work fine. Its sources do something and that something feels neither too strong nor too weak to me.

[o_O]

Some amulet properties are just not strong enough to compete for your one and only amulet slot, except as a swap. They might be better off as rings, especially if that allows making ammys strategic. Still, I'm not sure something like warding would be worth carrying around even as a ring swap. I guess the problem could just be that its very hard for anything to compete with Faith, or in some cases GS or Cons.

Ring of Regen isn't fast enough to matter much in a battle, and after a battle you have all the time you need. Its good in a 'constant onslaught' sort of environment like abyss or hell or getting double shafted in earlyish dungeon, but then there are often better choices. BTW, crawl needs more constant onslaught environments.

[tcjsavannah]

BTW, crawl needs more constant onslaught environments.

I'm thinking of Constant Onslaught Environment as my next band name.

[prozacelf]

I'd totally give it a listen. And I just realized where your avatar is from.

[tasonir]

I think regeneration's value depends partially on player skill, and specifically how conservatively you engage/pull mobs. since I tend to charge through things and yell a lot, I love regeneration. Essentially, the worse of a player you are, the better regeneration is. I value regeneration highly, but I can perfectly understand when someone like minmay would say that regeneration is weak. I'm all for buffing regeneration, because I like winning

[Fergy]

Split Gourmand into 7 tiers

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--- Can never eat chunks
--  Can eat chunks when Near Starving
-   Can eat chunks when very hungry
.   Can eat chunks when hungry
+   Can eat chunks when satiated
++  Can eat chunks when full
+++ Can eat chunks when very full

Make the amulet of Gourmand only give Gourm+
Make all other amulets about the same power as Gourm+

Amulets come in thee varieties:

• Mundane: Has 1 amulet property
• Runed: Has 2 amulet properties
• Artefact: Has at least 1 amulet property, and other properties.

Identifying an amulet property will ID that property on all future amulets. Using an ID scroll on a runed amulet will reveal the curse status and one unid property (will take two scrolls to fully ID an amulet).

[giygas]

Split Gourmand into 7 tiers

  Code:

--- Can never eat chunks
--  Can eat chunks when Near Starving
-   Can eat chunks when very hungry
.   Can eat chunks when hungry
+   Can eat chunks when satiated
++  Can eat chunks when full
+++ Can eat chunks when very full

Make the amulet of Gourmand only give Gourm+
Make all other amulets about the same power as Gourm+

Amulets come in thee varieties:

• Mundane: Has 1 amulet property
• Runed: Has 2 amulet properties
• Artefact: Has at least 1 amulet property, and other properties.

Identifying an amulet property will ID that property on all future amulets. Using an ID scroll on a runed amulet will reveal the curse status and one unid property (will take two scrolls to fully ID an amulet).

I like this idea relating to the pluses, but the minuses seem to veer into Vegetarian 3 territory, and I don't think I'm the only one who would be opposed to that.
I also like the idea of differentiating amulets; it would add some variety. However, some properties should be impossible to combine for balance's sake (preservation and conservation for instance)

[Fergy]

The - gourmand levels were only added for completeness. I would be against Gourm- appearing on anything except rare artefacts. Gourm--- should probably still allow eating chunks while starving.

Conservation could still be combined, but it would have to be nerfed.

  Code:

Cons+   50.0% chance to protect scrolls, potions, and food
Cons++  75.0% chance to protect scrolls, potions, and food
Cons+++ 87.5% chance to protect scrolls, potions, and food

[Moose]

I don't think the eating mini-game needs any more complexity.