Make food interesting

[Marbit]

When was the last time that you asked for food with an scroll of acquirement?
Do you often buy food in the shops?

Perhaps I'm missing something but for me food in crawl is not very interesting, we have the ambrosia and the royal jelly but that is just doesn't solve much. I'll suggest the following:

Buy corpses and chunks at the shops: It would be interesting to look for mutagenic chunks, and corpses that you can butcher for hides and meat or reanimate. Corpses of high level monsters should cost more. I think thi fits the setting and it would make players think twice on what do they want to spend their money.

Good mutagenic fruit: I has been discussed in another post that a consumable that would provide good mutations would be beneficial (see https://crawl.develz.org/tavern/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4905 ) I would only argue that this item should be a fruit to make the scroll of acquirement and shops interesting. In my opinion that item should be really rare and care should be taken in its design to avoid a no brainer (e.g. something players always use it as soon as they fin it because it is always good). I have suggested that the fruit should be 70% chance of giving good mutations 30% of giving a very good temporary buff to provide strategic options on when to eat it but details on how to adjust that item are better suited for the other post.

Better food option in scroll acquirement: The scroll of acquirement is biased towards good items so it should should be biased towards, expensive food. It could give you the good mutagenic fruit would be a good price that would certainly consider the food option. Getting a corpse of a high level monster could also prove a quick emergency minion for necromancers and may provide a hide.

Salted corpses: I'm not so sure about this one because it sounds a bit whacky. The idea is that corpses that doesn't degrade may provide an strategic option. It could be left in strategic places to be butchered or reanimated latter or carried if you don't mind the heavy weight.

[BlackSheep]

Well, you've got two (sorta) ideas in there that are already on the won't do list. Did you read that before posting? Did you read this before posting?

[Marbit]

Well, you've got two (sorta) ideas in there that are already on the won't do list. Did you read that before posting? Did you read this before posting?

Yes I did. I apologize if I didn't see the parts that I suggested, I'm afraid I still can't see them.
If you refer to the part of cooking. I'm not suggesting that.
If you reefer to the part of beneficial effects of chunks. I'm not suggesting that.

I suggest:
One new item, the beneficial fruit of mutation.
To be able to buy items that already exist ingame (chunks and corpses) at shops.
To be able to obtain chunks and corpses with scroll of acquirement.
To be able to get perma-corpses in shops and with acquirement.

The last one is the one that come closer to one of the points in the not do list. (Not give) Beneficial effects from chunks.
(it) Would encourage tedious behavior like stashing monsters. which I don't think it applies, you can already buy and stash food and items that allow you to summon minions. perma-corpses from shops and acquirement don't change a thing.

[cerebovssquire]

It could be left in strategic places to be butchered or reanimated latter or carried if you don't mind the heavy weight.

Does this sound good to you: leave corpses in one place, spend a lot of time travelling to and fro. This is bad in a normal game, and excruciating under the right circumstances (such as a ghoul in the extended endgame). Then you have situations like deep elves who can only carry one corpse, but need 10 to fight a certain enemy, so have fun doing 10 trips with added inventory management.

[mumra]

I think the basic premise is mistaken - food shops are useful, as is food acquirement, to the right character and circumstances. So you're trying to solve a non-existent problem here. Marbit did you see the link I replied to you with in the Beneficial Mutation thread?

[tcjsavannah]

Chopped: DCSS

[Marbit]

It could be left in strategic places to be butchered or reanimated latter or carried if you don't mind the heavy weight.

Does this sound good to you: leave corpses in one place, spend a lot of time travelling to and fro. This is bad in a normal game, and excruciating under the right circumstances (such as a ghoul in the extended endgame). Then you have situations like deep elves who can only carry one corpse, but need 10 to fight a certain enemy, so have fun doing 10 trips with added inventory management.

mmm I see the points. You could replace the word "corpses" with perma food and you would get the same result but I see how leaving items in one part is undesired. Norma bodies that decay should be no problem, it would be normal food or a minion that cannot accompany you beyond the level but I'm starting to question the merit of the proposal.

@mumra yes, I saw that and laughed a lot. Still I wonder how many players have asked for food with the acquirement scroll, I think that if it is almost never used (so much that when people actually use the option are surprised) there is something wrong with that.

[BlackSheep]

Yes I did. I apologize if I didn't see the parts that I suggested, I'm afraid I still can't see them.
If you refer to the part of cooking. I'm not suggesting that.

I was referring to your suggestion of salting corpses as cooking (sorta). I misread the bit about buying corpses and chunks in shops as selling corpses and chunks. Buying corpses and chunks wouldn't be very useful since you'd have to have the amazing fortune of a corpse shop generating very close to where you need its products, or else the meat would rot away by the time you made it back to the frontier of your exploration. This would be far less useful than the existing permafood shops. Yes, making the corpses and chunks permanent would obviate that problem, but I don't see the idea being nearly useful enough as to merit a new class of item and a new shop to sell it. I don't have any specific objection to corpse delivery via acquirement, though it does step on Kiku's toes.

Food acquirement is rare, but if you're starving in the Abyss or Pan, or a spriggan who got screwed over by harpies, or a vampire with no more corpses to drain, or a Fedhas worshiper looking for fruit to power abilities then the option is perfect.

[Marbit]

@black sheep, yes that sounds right. It was nice to bounce the ideas to get the problems with the suggestions.
Thanks all.

[mumra]

@mumra yes, I saw that and laughed a lot. Still I wonder how many players have asked for food with the acquirement scroll, I think that if it is almost never used (so much that when people actually use the option are surprised) there is something wrong with that.

The point is just because you've never used food shops or food acquirement doesn't mean they're not in the game for a reason.

If you worship Fedhas then these represent a cheap army. If you're a spriggan then permafood can be extremely valuable. In fact playing any character where you have high food costs (e.g. you want to cast high level spells but your Spellcasting/Int aren't great, you're using regen a lot, all kinds of things). Also if you're doing corpseless branches. Also Nemelex worshippers can probably buy out food shops to sacrifice everything and get decks of wonders. Probably. There are a lot of combos and playstyles and not everything has to be useful to all of them. If you only played felids would you complain that weapon shops were useless? And so on...

[mumra]

Another quick note - there was an idea already on the wiki I think for a rare "butchers" shop or something like this that only sold corpses/chunks - this could be amusing as a rare vault and is easily implementable via vault defined shops. But as BlackSheep points out its usefulness seems actually more niche than a regular permafood shop.

[BlackSheep]

It would be a neat addition to the existing butcher vault with all the dead minotaurs and beef jerky.

[yogaFLAME]

I'd posit that Not Everything Needs To Be More Interesting. It's okay if food is just a clock gently nudging you to keep moving.

Nausea is a thing that tries to make food interesting and is generally loathed by players. Also, it fails, nausea is not interesting.

[mumra]

I'd posit that Not Everything Needs To Be More Interesting. It's okay if food is just a clock gently nudging you to keep moving.

Nausea is a thing that tries to make food interesting and is generally loathed by players. Also, it fails, nausea is not interesting.

Also, nausea doesn't exist anymore.

I absolutely agree, food is the least interesting part of the game and anything that tries to make it more interesting just adds complexity and therefore annoyance.

[BlackSheep]

Also, nausea doesn't exist anymore.*

*(in 0.13 trunk)

Also, we do have some nonstandard things that can be done with food already. Fedhas and fruit, chunks and sublimation/simulacrum, Nemelex and decks of wonders, etc.

[mumra]

Also, nausea doesn't exist anymore.*

*(in 0.13 trunk)

Of course in trunk, that's where all the fun stuff happens

Also, we do have some nonstandard things that can be done with food already. Fedhas and fruit, chunks and sublimation/simulacrum, Nemelex and decks of wonders, etc.

Yeah, I should have said the food clock is the least interesting part of the game; other uses are great as I said.

[prozacelf]

It would be a neat addition to the existing butcher vault with all the dead minotaurs and beef jerky.

That is my favorite vault. And I've only run across it with VpEn.

I laugh every time I see it though.

[crate]

My understanding is that food only exists in crawl to curb otherwise very degenerate play, like pretending you are a mummy and returning to temple when you see an enemy so you can mummystab it. If food didn't exist you can in theory do this for nearly every enemy. Also you could abandon many gods with very minimal risk and no long-term cost. There are probably more abuses that are prevented by food existing that I haven't thought of, since I don't play mummies, rarely play vampires, and am not interested in searching for them.

Mostly the only time food is actively a concern is if you worship Ely.

To me this existing situation is ok. Food is certainly not exciting and is probably more of an annoyance than a gameplay benefit, but it does its job of forcing the player to actually make progress over time or die. I do not want more complexity because I don't want to be concerned about food in crawl. Now that contaminated chunks no longer make your character sick or nauseous most of my characters can mostly ignore that food exists except that I will rarely have to eat a ration.

[varsovie]

The problem is that the food clock is too loose, unless you're very unlucky or play very specific built, food will never be a problem (or not more than a tactical annoyance).

So far any effort to make the food clock more interesting or more thigh have failed.

Yes it's probably the least interesting part of the game, but so many thing are tied with it that any change has a lot of secondary effects.

I like the corps shop only if it's a unique shop (why not with is vault), so it will have only one max per game, and not guaranteed. It might be interesting to spend a lot of money on a corps to get a powerful ally (necro) or 33% chance to get the hide (or the chunks to eat, but it would be unlikely). People love casinos for a reason.

[roctavian]

What I think could be interesting, in terms of making the food clock more dangerous, is having a generalist food god in the game who gives some attractive benefits for strict eating conducts/nutrition sacrifices. I made a proposal for such some time ago, but never posted it because I couldn't think of enough interesting powers, though maybe I'll put it up sometime when I'm at my own computer.
I don't think making food management a critical issue for every character is a good plan, but it could be fun to provide the option.

[BountyHunterSAx]

What I think could be interesting, in terms of making the food clock more dangerous, is having a generalist food god in the game who gives some attractive benefits for strict eating conducts/nutrition sacrifices.

Not gonna lie to you, that could be fun for a while. You know, like the main dungeon where you actually still get corpses. Different food-types / corpse-types being sacrificed for different benefits and all. Problem is it sounds a lot like a rehash of what we already have Nemelex for. But then, I'm just imagining what your proposal might have been. Haven't seen it myself.


On topic, I love me the pizza's. So interesting to see which one you get. Anchovies, Mushroom, Personal Pandemonium Pizza, etc.

-AHMAD

[Xion350]

Food is way too forgiving, especially with the loss of Nausea. Hunger SHOULD be a major concern beyond spending time in one spot. I have a radical suggestion...

Make 'Permafood' rot. Not nearly as fast as chunks. But it still should. This would make some foods more appealing to keep for a long term, and others more appealing to eat on the spot because they have short rot timers. The only permafood that should remain is Ambrosia and Royal Jelly.

[XuaXua]

Bring back pies.

[pubby]

Food doesn't need to be more interesting, but I agree that food shops are boring.

I'd be happy if food shops had 1 or 2 non-food items in them that was useful to those who don't need food. Maybe a rare potion or branded dagger.

Hunger SHOULD be a major concern beyond spending time in one spot.

Have you ever died when you weren't scumming due to bad food luck? Do you honestly think that's fun?

[nicolae]

Food doesn't need to be more interesting, but I agree that food shops are boring.

I'd be happy if food shops had 1 or 2 non-food items in them that was useful to those who don't need food. Maybe a rare potion or branded dagger.

A food-and-drink shop with rations and potions would probably make more sense, themewise, than a food store with the occasional dagger.

[twelwe]

make food interesting!

[TeshiAlair]

One idea that I tried to implement on my own like 3 years back was food that had a more conditional effect. For instance, make food overall take longer to eat, but have jerky be very fast to eat, thus making it more valuable to mages or 'zerkers that have been fighting for a while.

Another idea was lemnas bread that would give elves slightly more satiation for flavor reasons.

Idea three is food as bait. If there is an orc knight and some yaks around the corner, throw out some fruit to lure out the yaks without disturbing the orc, or throw out meat to do the opposite. A more controlled option than just shouting.