Player-Invis Rework

[BountyHunterSAx]

Invisibility does not act like invisibility should intuitively behave, IMO. ESPECIALLY against 2-3 opponents. When I'm up against an invisible enemy it feels spot-on correct. I know they're somewhere around, I'm getting hit by them. I can try to stumble aorund blindly trying to thwack at air. I can creatively use corridors to improve my odds or single out their location. And - regardless of whether or not I know where they are - I'm at a penalty for trying to target that which I can't see. Perfect.


When I use invisibility on myself to hide from my enemies, naturally my expectation is similar. Further:

*) Intuitively, it should be near-impossible for me to be detected if the enemies were already otherwise occupied.
*) Spells that need a single-specific target should - at best - be directed at me < 1/4 times. And even then, if I take a single step, there should be absolutely NO way to track which direction I took it in.

Now, I've played enough crawl to know that this plain isn't how it works, and so I mostly treat invis as a stabbing tool only. But even I'm not immune to letting my common-sense about a spell leak in from time to time. I just got abyss'd by Louise while invisible. Banishment is a beam-targetted spell. Louise's x-v screen VERY CLEARLY epxlained that she couldn't see me. Stands to reason she wouldn't be able to shoot directly at me.

It wasn't just that shot either, I spent about 4 turns in LOS while invisible. I'm pretty sure the first, second and fourth shot were all aimed right at me.

I'm acting under the assumption that this is Invis *acting as intended*. It is less the ability and more the name that I have an issue with. Much like one would intuitively guess that "first aid potion" will cure your status effect. If the goal was to create a state of player invisbility, well then I'd say the ability itself needs work too.


TL;DR:
Monster-behavior/detection is good enough while player is invisible that it's not-intuitive. I'd recommend either:
a.) renaming the spell (I wouldn't expect as much from Fade/Shadow Essence/Camoflauge) ,
b.) updating the description so that it implies "monsters will not be fooled for long" or "are uncannily good at tracking and chasing/shooting at you anyways".
c.) If this is actually a problem with monster AI/Invisibility's functioning, then fix that.

-AHMAD

[BlackSheep]

What was your stealth like?

[tcjsavannah]

[BountyHunterSAx]

I'm not sure how that's relevant.

"This spell hides a creature from the sight of others. While invisible you will gain magical contamination, which may eventually cause enough glow to make you visible again. "

Why should I assume I need stealth to aid me here? After all, if the monster can't see me, then he can't see me; that's the intuition. And the quoted spell description above says nothing to warn me "but monster will still have no problem knowing where you are if you aren't stealthy". If I'm the only person for whom the intuitive understanding of "invisible" plus the spell description quoted here doesn't match the behavior, then okay - it's not the game's problem. But i doubt that's the case.


-AHMAD

[BlackSheep]

It's Invisibility, not Inaudibility. Everything you do makes noise which has a chance to attract the notice of monsters. The more intelligent the monster, the easier they find you.

[some12fat2move]

Why should I assume I need stealth to aid me here? After all, if the monster can't see me, then he can't see me; that's the intuition. And the quoted spell description above says nothing to warn me "but monster will still have no problem knowing where you are if you aren't stealthy".

You make noise while invisible, so if you're running around in full plate it should be fairly easy to hear where you are. If you're stealthier, enemies will have a harder time pinpointing you.
edit: ninja'd

[BountyHunterSAx]

"This spell hides a creature from the sight of others. While invisible you still make noise which can enable intelligent monsters to track and aim at you. You will also gain magical contamination, which may eventually cause enough glow to make you visible again. " </fix'd>

-AHMAD

[Tiber]

So if I combine invisibility with silence, it should be incredibly difficult for a monster to know my exact location, shouldn't it?

[mumra]

Very old discussion relating to tweaking invisibility:
https://crawl.develz.org/mantis/view.php?id=486

On the other hand it's already quite a strong effect and certainly doesn't need a buff. The description tweak seems reasonable though, since it's not so obvious to a lot of players.

So if I combine invisibility with silence, it should be incredibly difficult for a monster to know my exact location, shouldn't it?

Silence is very bad for stealth though...

[cerebovssquire]

If you want to make player invis like monster invis I suggest just making the spell do nothing

[BountyHunterSAx]

Clearly, cerebov, you have never died to an unseen horror or ghost moth like I have.

-AHMAD

[Tiber]

So if I combine invisibility with silence, it should be incredibly difficult for a monster to know my exact location, shouldn't it?

Silence is very bad for stealth though...

I was pointing out a hole in the explanation that poor stealth allows them to guess your location based on noise. The "unnatural silence" would make them aware of your existence, but the complete lack of sound plus invisibility would make you incredibly hard to pinpoint. Unless stealth also increases your ability to hide your scent or something.

[BlackSheep]

The monsters likely to track you by scent already have sense invisible.

[Davion Fuxa]

If you want to make player invis like monster invis I suggest just making the spell do nothing

You mean make them like this guy:

[cerebovssquire]

If you want to make player invis like monster invis I suggest just making the spell do nothing

You mean make them like this guy:

these guys are actually pretty terrible because doom is realtime and also does all kinds of different things to screw over the lighting (seriously doom is worse than most parties i've been too), but otherwise that's kind of exactly how monster invis does work in crawl

[BountyHunterSAx]

Minus the drawing an outline to tell you where to shoot at (except, possibly, once every 5-6 turns or so) and the increased ev?

IMO, the only reason invisibility on monsters is kinda 'meh' is that the monsters who use it tend to be pretty 'meh', especially at the point in the gmae you reach them. Put it on a ghost moth and make my wizard cry. Put it on maurice and watch my wallet bleed. Thank god Sonja doesn't use it frequently.

-AHMAD

[cerebovssquire]

If you know how monster movement works, you can tell where a monster will be in 5-6 turns, especially if it is hitting you and at the very least accurate enough to fire a spell/arrow/wand along the ring direction to hit it. This is not complicated (again, especially if it is hitting you) and only really matters in the case of unseen horrors in the open, because there movement admittedly is somewhat unpredictable.

[mumra]

seriously doom is worse than most parties i've been too

I would like to hear about the parties you went to that were worse than Doom ...

[nicolae]

seriously doom is worse than most parties i've been too

I would like to hear about the parties you went to that were worse than Doom ...

let's just say "knee deep in the dead" is only appealing in video games

[cerebovssquire]

seriously doom is worse than most parties i've been too

I would like to hear about the parties you went to that were worse than Doom ...

let's just say "knee deep in the dead" is only appealing in video games

i'd rather wade through knee deep corpses than try to tell people that i'm not that drunk because i can still recite multiples of 7 (no i couldn't)

[crate]

I always know exactly where any invisible enemy that's not an unseen horror (or rakshasa) is if it goes invisible in my LOS (you should note that there are no enemies that have both invisibility spell and blink spell except rakshasas, but they're almost always harmless). Unseen horrors I always know where they are to within one space once I first figure out where it hit me from. Lorocyprocas I always know exactly where they are once I first figure out where they hit me from.

This seems pretty consistent with how monsters work with player invisibility, actually.

Rewording the description sounds ok to me.

[varsovie]

I always know exactly where any invisible enemy [is]

Me too, I always consider invis like a free 15% evade for me or the foo, with the bonus of being sneaky in front of some monsters (like oklob) and the fact that a permanent invis monster get a tactical surprise, but it isn't worse than seeing a foo past a corner.