Nemelex : Shuffle Ability


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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 16th April 2013, 15:59

Nemelex : Shuffle Ability

Playing Nemelex, one can end up with some decks you just don't want. And Nemelex only bequeaths pure decks.
Also you're carrying around a LOT of decks sometimes. Gets bulky. And monsters can pick up the ones you leave behind.

Would it be out of question to consider a new ability tentatively called Shuffle, where you select two decks and combine them, creating either a Deck of Changes, Deck of Defense, or Deck of War?

Only two "pure" decks (destuction, dungeon, escape, summonings, wonders) can be Shuffled together, and the two decks must be different types.
The resulting new deck size would be
- total size of original decks - 2
- contain entirely new cards based on the resulting deck type
- cost a bit of piety to do.
- resulting deck has an increased chance of a penance card.
- resulting deck type would be random, but chance of deck would be favored based on decks used:
+% Changes for using Deck of Wonders / Dungeons
+% Defense for using Deck of Escape / Dungeons
+% War for using Deck of Destruction / Escape

Alternately allow the three unpure decks to be shuffled with a minor % bonus to receive the same type of deck.
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Snake Sneak

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Post Tuesday, 16th April 2013, 17:04

Re: Nemelex : Shuffle Ability

Bad thread title, I thought this would be a thread asking to be able to shuffle your stats for a high piety cost.
Sounds to me like what you're proposing would always be inferior to simply blind drawing from decks you don't want to get decks you do want. And each deck taking up an inventory slot is a (small) part of what balances deck use, so having decks with 20+ cards seems a little silly.

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Post Tuesday, 16th April 2013, 17:57

Re: Nemelex : Shuffle Ability

zrn wrote:Bad thread title, I thought this would be a thread asking to be able to shuffle your stats for a high piety cost.
Sounds to me like what you're proposing would always be inferior to simply blind drawing from decks you don't want to get decks you do want. And each deck taking up an inventory slot is a (small) part of what balances deck use, so having decks with 20+ cards seems a little silly.


The problem is that Nemelex gives you a shitload of decks that you don't need, like ornate Escape when you already have 3 or 4 stacked legendary decks, or ornate and plain decks in general when you have more legendary decks than you can hold. It would be a right nuisance (although, perhaps, optimal) to recycle each unneeded deck manually. Also, the upshot of shuffling decks for mixed decks is that you get access to cards not in pure decks, like Elixir. Of course, being able to stack legendary Elixirs to your heart's content might be a smidge imbalanced, so it would probably need some sort of limiter.

At least, that's the impression I got from playing Nemelex once, so take it with a grain of salt.

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Post Tuesday, 16th April 2013, 18:11

Re: Nemelex : Shuffle Ability

sage wrote:The problem is that Nemelex gives you a shitload of decks that you don't need, like ornate Escape when you already have 3 or 4 stacked legendary decks, or ornate and plain decks in general when you have more legendary decks than you can hold. It would be a right nuisance (although, perhaps, optimal) to recycle each unneeded deck manually. Also, the upshot of shuffling decks for mixed decks is that you get access to cards not in pure decks, like Elixir. Of course, being able to stack legendary Elixirs to your heart's content might be a smidge imbalanced, so it would probably need some sort of limiter.


I think you've successfully pointed out all the reasons why this proposal is a really bad idea ...

Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Tuesday, 16th April 2013, 18:20

Re: Nemelex : Shuffle Ability

Another reason is that Nemelex is already a very fiddly god. While I don't detest the idea, it would serve to increase the overall fiddliness.

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Post Tuesday, 16th April 2013, 18:26

Re: Nemelex : Shuffle Ability

BlackSheep wrote:Another reason is that Nemelex is already a very fiddly god. While I don't detest the idea, it would serve to increase the overall fiddliness.


Well exactly, it's really bad if it starts being optimal to manipulate your decks in this kind of way to improve chances of drawing [x] card.

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Post Tuesday, 16th April 2013, 18:36

Re: Nemelex : Shuffle Ability

mumra wrote:
BlackSheep wrote:Another reason is that Nemelex is already a very fiddly god. While I don't detest the idea, it would serve to increase the overall fiddliness.


Well exactly, it's really bad if it starts being optimal to manipulate your decks in this kind of way to improve chances of drawing [x] card.


Isn't that like what happens already, when people sacrifice food to hopefully luck into an early Experience?

Anyway, it might be good to do something about all of those spare decks, regardless of the specific implementation. Send a gift back to Nemelex for piety equal to the cards in it, less some gratuity, boost piety from sacrifices and remove it from normal drawing, fiddle deck quality and/or gift frequency rates, I'm not sure.

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Post Tuesday, 16th April 2013, 18:38

Re: Nemelex : Shuffle Ability

sage wrote:Isn't that like what happens already, when people sacrifice food to hopefully luck into an early Experience?


I think that's the point. There's already more than enough of that with Nemelex as it is.
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Post Tuesday, 16th April 2013, 18:55

Re: Nemelex : Shuffle Ability

I'm just trying to find a way to consume some of the decks that just sit around and are drawn on for the sake of drawing a card (and as an aside, thematically define how other "decks" get created). While the initial proposal is rough, I don't feel it's unworkable and could do with some revision. I know one thing I didn't do was rank the resulting deck, which would probably be biased based on the rank of the decks used.
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Post Tuesday, 16th April 2013, 19:09

Re: Nemelex : Shuffle Ability

XuaXua wrote:I'm just trying to find a way to consume some of the decks that just sit around and are drawn on for the sake of drawing a card (and as an aside, thematically define how other "decks" get created). While the initial proposal is rough, I don't feel it's unworkable and could do with some revision. I know one thing I didn't do was rank the resulting deck, which would probably be biased based on the rank of the decks used.

Just use the crappy decks up or throw them in lava if you're worried. And are you really concerned if some orc picks up your plain (crappy) deck of escape? Plain decks of destruction are still useful all the way through the dungeon for dealing with chaff.

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Post Tuesday, 16th April 2013, 22:17

Re: Nemelex : Shuffle Ability

rebthor wrote:
XuaXua wrote:I'm just trying to find a way to consume some of the decks that just sit around and are drawn on for the sake of drawing a card (and as an aside, thematically define how other "decks" get created). While the initial proposal is rough, I don't feel it's unworkable and could do with some revision. I know one thing I didn't do was rank the resulting deck, which would probably be biased based on the rank of the decks used.

Just use the crappy decks up or throw them in lava if you're worried. And are you really concerned if some orc picks up your plain (crappy) deck of escape? Plain decks of destruction are still useful all the way through the dungeon for dealing with chaff.


The issue is that just using up the garbage decks is an interace annoyance and actually has potential drawbacks. Unfortunately, it is optimal to perform the manual wasting of decks and doing so requires some setup to do so safely. "Oh good! Finally found some orcs! Portal, Portal, Swap, Damnation. Flame, Frost, Frost, Venom, Flame, Hammer, Spark. Damnit, need more orcs..."

As for plain decks of destruction and dealing with chaff: I'd rather just press tab a few times because it's safer, less time consuming, uses less turns, is mentally easier.

Whether this proposal is a bad idea or not, I do not know. I believe the issue of combining wands and decks has come up before and been rejected, but it could certainly be balanced to not present a power increase.

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Post Wednesday, 17th April 2013, 07:14

Re: Nemelex : Shuffle Ability

Tenaya wrote:As for plain decks of destruction and dealing with chaff: I'd rather just press tab a few times because it's safer, less time consuming, uses less turns, is mentally easier.


Tab does not gain piety. Nemelex encourages doing dangerous things to gain piety. Sacrificing permafood is included in "dangerous" here.

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Post Wednesday, 17th April 2013, 13:33

Re: Nemelex : Shuffle Ability

XuaXua wrote:I'm just trying to find a way to consume some of the decks that just sit around and are drawn on for the sake of drawing a card (and as an aside, thematically define how other "decks" get created).


Can't spare decks just be sacrificed for piety? Maybe piety gain from sacrificing decks should be set to some large fraction of what you'd get from blind drawing the entire deck.

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Post Wednesday, 17th April 2013, 17:09

Re: Nemelex : Shuffle Ability

Sandman25 wrote:
Tenaya wrote:As for plain decks of destruction and dealing with chaff: I'd rather just press tab a few times because it's safer, less time consuming, uses less turns, is mentally easier.


Tab does not gain piety. Nemelex encourages doing dangerous things to gain piety. Sacrificing permafood is included in "dangerous" here.


Grinding for piety is not the goal of the game; while tab does move one towards winning. But my point is that wiping out bats and rats with ornate decks of destruction and using up decks of escape when one finally finds orcs does not make sense, but is unfortunately the optimal play because it removes most of the danger and decreases the gift timeout.

The point of the thread is that it may be the case that Nemelex encourages doing dangerous things, but it is also true that Nemelex encourages grinding, and that it is unlikely that this diety's intention is to run contrary to a stated game design goal.

Look, this is not that big of a deal. The questions are, IMO:
1) Does the current design encourage one to manually waste decks?
2) And, if so, does such manually wasting of decks constitute grinding?

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Post Wednesday, 17th April 2013, 17:38

Re: Nemelex : Shuffle Ability

DracheReborn wrote:
XuaXua wrote:I'm just trying to find a way to consume some of the decks that just sit around and are drawn on for the sake of drawing a card (and as an aside, thematically define how other "decks" get created).


Can't spare decks just be sacrificed for piety? Maybe piety gain from sacrificing decks should be set to some large fraction of what you'd get from blind drawing the entire deck.


That's one possible remedy. There would be an interface complication though, because one might sacrifice decks accidentally.

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Post Wednesday, 17th April 2013, 20:06

Re: Nemelex : Shuffle Ability

Tenaya wrote:
rebthor wrote:
XuaXua wrote:I'm just trying to find a way to consume some of the decks that just sit around and are drawn on for the sake of drawing a card (and as an aside, thematically define how other "decks" get created). While the initial proposal is rough, I don't feel it's unworkable and could do with some revision. I know one thing I didn't do was rank the resulting deck, which would probably be biased based on the rank of the decks used.

Just use the crappy decks up or throw them in lava if you're worried. And are you really concerned if some orc picks up your plain (crappy) deck of escape? Plain decks of destruction are still useful all the way through the dungeon for dealing with chaff.


The issue is that just using up the garbage decks is an interace annoyance and actually has potential drawbacks. Unfortunately, it is optimal to perform the manual wasting of decks and doing so requires some setup to do so safely. "Oh good! Finally found some orcs! Portal, Portal, Swap, Damnation. Flame, Frost, Frost, Venom, Flame, Hammer, Spark. Damnit, need more orcs..."

As for plain decks of destruction and dealing with chaff: I'd rather just press tab a few times because it's safer, less time consuming, uses less turns, is mentally easier.

Yes, because if there is one phrase to describe nemelex, it is "low maintenance."

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Post Wednesday, 17th April 2013, 20:30

Re: Nemelex : Shuffle Ability

If you want to use decks of destruction for piety you're actually better off drawing them against nothing than against enemies. The only deck you want other things around for is escape and that's only because of damnation.

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Post Wednesday, 17th April 2013, 20:47

Re: Nemelex : Shuffle Ability

crate wrote:If you want to use decks of destruction for piety you're actually better off drawing them against nothing than against enemies. The only deck you want other things around for is escape and that's only because of damnation.


Oh, was that change ever made? Does lack of a target no longer disappoint Nemelex? If so, that is better, although it still requires manually wasting decks.

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Post Wednesday, 17th April 2013, 20:55

Re: Nemelex : Shuffle Ability

Yes, Nemelex no longer hates wasted cards. That's been the case for a while now.

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Post Wednesday, 17th April 2013, 21:02

Re: Nemelex : Shuffle Ability

rebthor wrote:Yes, because if there is one phrase to describe nemelex, it is "low maintenance."


I suppose I should infer irony...
If so, are you arguing that since Nemelex is already so high maintenance never mind efforts to piece-meal reduce this maintenance?

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Post Thursday, 18th April 2013, 06:25

Re: Nemelex : Shuffle Ability

Tenaya wrote:Grinding for piety is not the goal of the game; while tab does move one towards winning. But my point is that wiping out bats and rats with ornate decks of destruction and using up decks of escape when one finally finds orcs does not make sense, but is unfortunately the optimal play because it removes most of the danger and decreases the gift timeout.

The point of the thread is that it may be the case that Nemelex encourages doing dangerous things, but it is also true that Nemelex encourages grinding, and that it is unlikely that this diety's intention is to run contrary to a stated game design goal.


Well, picking up potions/scrolls is not the goal of the game either but I hope you do pick them up. Piety for Nemelex can grant you cards which are basically the same thing as potions/scrolls.

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Post Thursday, 18th April 2013, 14:33

Re: Nemelex : Shuffle Ability

Tenaya wrote:
rebthor wrote:Yes, because if there is one phrase to describe nemelex, it is "low maintenance."


I suppose I should infer irony...
If so, are you arguing that since Nemelex is already so high maintenance never mind efforts to piece-meal reduce this maintenance?

If you think that hoarding up lots of decks to mix them and create better decks will reduce tedium I'd like to hear a cogent argument. Right now, you can just use the decks or drop the decks.

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Post Thursday, 18th April 2013, 15:08

Re: Nemelex : Shuffle Ability

Sandman25 wrote:Well, picking up potions/scrolls is not the goal of the game either but I hope you do pick them up. Piety for Nemelex can grant you cards which are basically the same thing as potions/scrolls.

(I don't actually pick most of them up, I just autoexplore and the game picks most of them up for me. It's rather a nice feature. )
But thank you for identifying the reward portion of the grinding: Nemelex cards. All I need now to prove my point is to find someone to identify low risk behavior ...

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Post Thursday, 18th April 2013, 15:12

Re: Nemelex : Shuffle Ability

minmay wrote:if the best way to get scrolls was to draw cards repeatedly in front of rats, i would probably not be playing crawl

... I guess we're safe in that regard, because there is no way to get scrolls from rats. But, the best way to get _decks_ is to draw cards in front of rats. Tada!

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Post Thursday, 18th April 2013, 15:24

Re: Nemelex : Shuffle Ability

I''m not very familiar with Nemelex, the only time I played with him was recently, when I wanted a Jr win. Anyway, I picked Mi, trained like I would train a generic melee guy and also got some Evocations, used decks mostly vs. dangerous stuff and just threw away decks I didn't want to use. I still got a lot of gifts by sacrificing (almost) everything, never really felt like I needed more decks and/or needed to do boring stuff to get more decks (except for sacrificing, but at least that can be automated).
If doing boring stuff is indeed optimal though, than there is a problem.

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Post Thursday, 18th April 2013, 15:40

Re: Nemelex : Shuffle Ability

rebthor wrote:
Tenaya wrote:
rebthor wrote:Yes, because if there is one phrase to describe nemelex, it is "low maintenance."


I suppose I should infer irony...
If so, are you arguing that since Nemelex is already so high maintenance never mind efforts to piece-meal reduce this maintenance?

If you think that hoarding up lots of decks to mix them and create better decks will reduce tedium I'd like to hear a cogent argument. Right now, you can just use the decks or drop the decks.


I never said that; that was XuaXua's idea. You seem to be arguing that staying the course is the best option. I think you are wrong and that there is room for improvement and that some of the grinding inherent in Nemelex could be removed.

For example, an improvement would be to silently suppress low-power decks past a certain point.
Once the deck-gift counter reaches:
x: suppress plain decks of destruction, and reset gift timeout to a fraction of standard;
y: suppress plain decks of summoning, and reset gift timeout to a fraction of standard;
z: suppress plain decks of escape, and reset gift timeout to a fraction of standard;
x': suppress ornate decks of destruction, and reset gift timeout to a fraction of standard;
y': suppress ornate decks of summoning, and reset gift timeout to a fraction of standard;
z': suppress ornate decks of escape, and reset gift timeout to a fraction of standard.
I believe the balance issue related to the player having almost exclusively higher power cards will/could be balanced by the bad effects being also higher power, and the fewer decks being generated.
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Post Friday, 19th April 2013, 00:21

Re: Nemelex : Shuffle Ability

The problem with the suppression, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that ability scales with Evo skill, so presumably skill is increasing so much that Nemelex will simply get out of hand. There needs to be a way to unsuppress low decks, possibly at lower piety.
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Post Friday, 19th April 2013, 07:15

Re: Nemelex : Shuffle Ability

Tenaya wrote:
Sandman25 wrote:Well, picking up potions/scrolls is not the goal of the game either but I hope you do pick them up. Piety for Nemelex can grant you cards which are basically the same thing as potions/scrolls.

(I don't actually pick most of them up, I just autoexplore and the game picks most of them up for me. It's rather a nice feature. )
But thank you for identifying the reward portion of the grinding: Nemelex cards. All I need now to prove my point is to find someone to identify low risk behavior ...


You can use 0 key to draw N cards by a single command.
Or even better, you can write a lua function for automatic drawing all cards from a plain deck in specific slot when you encounter a rat. It will be similar to autopicking scrolls :)
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Post Friday, 19th April 2013, 18:52

Re: Nemelex : Shuffle Ability

Sandman25 wrote:
Tenaya wrote:
Sandman25 wrote:Well, picking up potions/scrolls is not the goal of the game either but I hope you do pick them up. Piety for Nemelex can grant you cards which are basically the same thing as potions/scrolls.

(I don't actually pick most of them up, I just autoexplore and the game picks most of them up for me. It's rather a nice feature. )
But thank you for identifying the reward portion of the grinding: Nemelex cards. All I need now to prove my point is to find someone to identify low risk behavior ...


You can use 0 key to draw N cards by a single command.
Or even better, you can write a lua function for automatic drawing all cards from a plain deck in specific slot when you encounter a rat. It will be similar to autopicking scrolls :)

Right up till you double down on damnation.
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Post Saturday, 20th April 2013, 12:15

Re: Nemelex : Shuffle Ability

And that is the problem right there. Why do we draw tediously In FRONT of a target monster? No longer because Nemelex is displeased by it, but because of certain cards, like damnation. It adds one more layer to the tedium.
"Be aware that a lot of people on this forum, such as mageykun and XuaXua, have a habit of making things up." - minmay a.k.a. duvessa
Did I make a lame complaint? Check for Bingo!
Totally gracious CSDC Season 2 Division 4 Champeen!

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