Discussion: Improving Skalds


Although the central place for design discussion is ##crawl-dev on freenode, some may find it helpful to discuss requests and suggestions here first.

Halls Hopper

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Post Friday, 28th June 2013, 16:29

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

DracheReborn wrote:Ok, these weren't serious suggestions, just observations from playing a skald with allies. I found myself wishing that skald spells would act more like those of D&D bard. But I realize that is not the intent of the skald class. Maybe this sort of thing should be added to Beogh abilities?


I like this idea. It would also create an easy template to make a stronger, more buff-happy orc high priest to keep orcs relevant longer.

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Post Friday, 28th June 2013, 18:03

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

DracheReborn wrote:Another thought was whether Song of Slaying should affect allies. I know that it shouldn't, because it would be seriously overpowered, but in terms of flavor it's what I'd expect from something called Song of Slaying :mrgreen:


You know I was thinking of this at one point and it would certainly be appropriate for a rousing song of battle to inspire your allies.

I don't know if it's too overpowered, since you'd still have to get the kills yourself to get the bonus; and it wouldn't have to transfer the full bonus to your allies. It could push the player more into wading into the battle themselves and fighting alongside their allies - this is actually a good effect on summoner play (and part of the intent of the recent summoner changes).

Now that summoners have more balance it could also make the class more interesting to have more spells that interact with their summons in a positive way.
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Post Friday, 28th June 2013, 18:29

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

one of the things that's already annoying about song of slaying is making sure you get the kills yourself in melee (LO heat aura is where I noticed it, but it also applies to using ranged weapons/rods to soften foes). This would be much worse with allies stealing kills.

So probably either it should accept all kills or not work on allies (or both).
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Lair Larrikin

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Post Sunday, 30th June 2013, 11:03

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

Well I've put in some buffs for spectral weapon. Some probably aren't enough, others might go too far. So I'd appreciate feedback on what's working and not.
  • Damage now scales with weapon skill (analogously to player damage scaling). However, effective weapon skill is scaled by spell power. At 0 spell power, weapon skill has 1/3 the effect it does for the player, while at max (100) spell power, weapon skill has its full effect. Other bonuses the player may have (fighting, stats, slaying, etc.) do not apply.
  • Base EV got bumped from 2 to 10, which should remove the 'always gets hit' aspect of the weapon. Both AC and EV scaling got slightly increased from +8 over the range of power to +10.
  • Damage sharing is now only 1/2 the damage taken by the weapon.
  • Allied beams (throwing, spells, evocations) now pass through the weapon harmlessly, identically to how battlesphere works. These spells are extensions of the caster, so shouldn't be getting in the way.
  • Spectral Weapon HD now has a minimum of 1 (otherwise equal to weapon skill), as HD0 creatures die immediately when attacked. Between this and the EV buff, hopefully there won't be cases of the spectral weapon dying as soon as it is cast.
  • Minor fixes to how damage sharing is calculated and applied. Now you can't be killed by an AoE attack simply because the damage sharing was processed before your own damage.

Baldu wrote:edit2: if i used an axe, would infusion cost 1 mp for every dude i cleave? and would spectral weapon cleave too?


Cleaving infusion costs 1mp for every target that is hit. Spectral axes will attack the primary target of your swing, but will then cleave any valid targets in their arc. A past version of the AI kept the weapon in place if you strafed around the target (while staying in melee range of it), which allowed some interesting set up possibilities. This was never intentionally part of the AI; it just emerged from other rules it was supposed to follow. Fixing some more glaring problems with the AI has since removed this emergent feature, but I might try tweaking it some more such that the weapon will sometimes stay in place to allow such tactical arrangements. Perhaps, it might continue to stay on its target (rather than automatically heeling after you) as long as you don't leave leash range? This way it should generally stay in place if you take a non-attack action. This would unfortunately delay it's attempts to follow you if you turn and run, but it ought to catch up quickly enough.

Also it was pointed out to me that guaranteed 4 damage (note that it is NOT rolled like most damage effects. You always get the given damage) is equivalent to the average effect of +0,+8 slaying, which is highly desirable. Expect some degree of nerfs.

Song of Slaying will probably get a formula that produces a probability of gaining more slaying depending on exp value and current slaying bonus, so there won't be hard caps at various levels of something that was only ever meant for interface convenience (threat levels). So trivial things will occasionally get you to a small bonus, but the chance will be vanishingly small as they get weaker. It should ideally also be tunable to scale better with later on, when many things are worth enough that they never become trivial by the interface metric but aren't all that dangerous anymore.

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Post Sunday, 30th June 2013, 12:52

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

What if infusion had an equal chance of draining one hp or one mp with each hit? Then it would last longer on D1 skalds with few mp. Or instead of a coin flip, make the chance something like the ratio of the square root of hp to the square root of mp. I guess you'd use current hp and mp for that calculation, not max.

Does the name need an adjective to further distance the spell from lethal infusion, the draining brand?

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Post Sunday, 30th June 2013, 20:32

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

jejorda2 wrote:What if infusion had an equal chance of draining one hp or one mp with each hit? Then it would last longer on D1 skalds with few mp. Or instead of a coin flip, make the chance something like the ratio of the square root of hp to the square root of mp. I guess you'd use current hp and mp for that calculation, not max.



I can't see that being desirable really, on low levels (and even moderately far on) dealing out 10 hits with infusion, 8 of which take off hp could seriously damage your health (being be a bit like a rubbish version of Pain) combined with the damage you're already taking in melee. It would just make it too unpredictable to be worth while, and Skalds are fragile enough early game.

I like the mechanism for infusion, but I think a cap needs to be put on it where, when cast, it says that you're already dealing too much damage for infusion to add damage too. This would obviously make it a spell that you're going to want to forget late game, but most level one spells are like that anyway.

More easily though, it could just take off 2-3mp per hit instead, which would make it drastically less useful when you get better spells online as even with moderately high mp you still wouldn't want to loose 16 points for a little added bonus.
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Halls Hopper

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Post Sunday, 30th June 2013, 20:34

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

jejorda2 wrote:What if infusion had an equal chance of draining one hp or one mp with each hit? Then it would last longer on D1 skalds with few mp.


The problem can happends with a few MP skalds, but consider few HP skalds (like DE or felids) : killing myself because I hit an opponent seem a bit strange to me.

And a quick question on the same topic : I was surprised infusion was preserved during weapon switching. I won't mind the spell being dispelled on unwield beacause I see infusion like a brand (or an overbrand), i'm not sure the actual behavior is intended.

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Post Sunday, 30th June 2013, 21:17

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

How about if Infusion just had a chance of reducing your MP by one, dependant on the amount of damage done, and max possible infusion damage it's 100%, at low damage it's much less likely, and it simply won't trigger at all if you have 0 MP (like it does now)

That way, when you have low spell power, you're less likely to do much damage *and* you are less likely to use up the MP that you don't have to spare.

It also makes a bit of thematic sense (Since you're channeling spell power into your weapon, it'll only actually take MP if you do a good job of it)
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Post Sunday, 30th June 2013, 21:19

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

Also DjSk are really weird with infusion (I attack you with my life! It's me or you, I don't care which!)
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Abyss Ambulator

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Post Sunday, 30th June 2013, 21:28

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

On a related note, Djinn probably shouldn't be allowed to learn song of shielding, if it's not already on their disallowed list.

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Post Monday, 1st July 2013, 18:42

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

KennySheep wrote:
DracheReborn wrote:Ok, these weren't serious suggestions, just observations from playing a skald with allies. I found myself wishing that skald spells would act more like those of D&D bard. But I realize that is not the intent of the skald class. Maybe this sort of thing should be added to Beogh abilities?


I like this idea. It would also create an easy template to make a stronger, more buff-happy orc high priest to keep orcs relevant longer.


This should probably be split, but it seems like Beogh's abilities are largely balanced around starting with fairly good piety -as a priest - not converting around D5 or 6

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Post Monday, 1st July 2013, 19:19

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

Note that there are no more priests.
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Post Monday, 1st July 2013, 22:19

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

Siegurt wrote:Note that there are no more priests.


However we are talking about Skalds, and a HOSk can now worship Beogh at a very early opportunity, to create the scenario the poster was talking about.

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Post Monday, 1st July 2013, 22:32

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

the question is: do we want this to be a feature for certain Skald* songs that also applies to summoned allies, Yred gifts, and demonic guardians or a Beogh piety feature for certain self-buffs to apply to your Orc posse?

Though I was mentioning the need for a different totally new ability for newly-converted orcs to take advantage of until they reach the piety that old HOPr's would have already had by that point.




*Referring to the charms & melee playstyle, not the class itself.
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Post Sunday, 7th July 2013, 23:47

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

Why can't Skalds start with staves?
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Post Sunday, 7th July 2013, 23:58

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

XuaXua wrote:Why can't Skalds start with staves?

Skald's start with "weaker" weapon choices, Quarterstaves are strong starting weapons. Non-quarter Staves were weaker starting weapons, however they've been removed. There are no more "Just plain staves"
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Post Monday, 8th July 2013, 05:13

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

If the spectral weapon is the spirit of your wielded weapon, why it can't strike the invisible enemy that you can see?

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Post Monday, 8th July 2013, 05:31

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

blinkfrog wrote:If the spectral weapon is the spirit of your wielded weapon, why it can't strike the invisible enemy that you can see?


Also for comparison Battlesphere can fire at invisible things (even ones you can't see) Although I think that might be counterintuitive and it probably *shouldn't* be able to.
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Post Monday, 8th July 2013, 07:55

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

Siegurt wrote:
blinkfrog wrote:If the spectral weapon is the spirit of your wielded weapon, why it can't strike the invisible enemy that you can see?

Also for comparison Battlesphere can fire at invisible things (even ones you can't see) Although I think that might be counterintuitive and it probably *shouldn't* be able to.

I think that as the SW is the spirit of your weapon, it is like the mirror doubling all the attacks. So if you strikes the enemy (visible or not) it have to make attempt to attack too. And may be success must be based on the visibility of enemy to character (because for real weapon it is based on that).

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Post Monday, 8th July 2013, 11:34

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

agreed, it seems weird that SW can't attack invisible enemies if you are, especially as it mirrors your own attacks. Possibly it could always treat the enemy as invisible (and the penalty that comes with attacking an unseen invisible enemy)?
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Ziggurat Zagger

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Post Wednesday, 10th July 2013, 20:09

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

Using an axe, it does not seem like the cleave victims are adding to song of slaying.
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Post Thursday, 11th July 2013, 04:46

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

mumra wrote:
Siegurt wrote:Note that there are no more priests.


However we are talking about Skalds, and a HOSk can now worship Beogh at a very early opportunity, to create the scenario the poster was talking about.


I'm curious about this. You can't start Hill Orc Priest anymore?
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Post Thursday, 11th July 2013, 05:02

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

The "Priest" class is removed in 0.13 due to Zin being a terrible starting god.
And to replace the mechanic of HOPr starting with Beogh - you now gain a "Beogh" status effect with Orc Priests in view. (And if look at your ability screen you have a "Convert to Beogh" ability.)
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Post Thursday, 11th July 2013, 06:22

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

What? Really? How weird and interesting.
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Post Thursday, 11th July 2013, 06:48

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

Bloax wrote:The "Priest" class is removed in 0.13 due to Zin being a terrible starting god.
And to replace the mechanic of HOPr starting with Beogh - you now gain a "Beogh" status effect with Orc Priests in view. (And if look at your ability screen you have a "Convert to Beogh" ability.)


Oh, is THAT what that was????
I thought it was a brand new warning notifier that a priest was in view and my Lava Orc might get smited.
Then I updated trunk and played as a gargoyle and the Beogh "warning" didn't appear.
I much prefer it as a warning than as a call to worship.
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Post Thursday, 11th July 2013, 14:31

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

rosstin wrote:What? Really? How weird and interesting.

Zin was not great as a starting god, and a new mechanic was introduced for allowing Beogh conversion.
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Post Friday, 12th July 2013, 04:11

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

It should be kept for all player races as a blatant smite-potential warning, but only show the ability for those who qualify for conversion.
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Post Sunday, 14th July 2013, 23:51

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

Bloax wrote:The "Priest" class is removed in 0.13 due to Zin being a terrible starting god.
And to replace the mechanic of HOPr starting with Beogh - you now gain a "Beogh" status effect with Orc Priests in view. (And if look at your ability screen you have a "Convert to Beogh" ability.)


This is hilarious!! I can't believe we implemented a suggestion that originated in a "bad ideas" thread, hahaha! :lol:

I tried a Hill Orc Skald recently and I enjoyed both the new Skald class and the Beogh changes.

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Post Monday, 15th July 2013, 18:03

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

This was the one I was thinking of:

"Orc non-priests can bow down to Saint Roka as their messiah. Their goal is then to ensure that he gets the Orb and gets out safely."
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Post Monday, 15th July 2013, 23:26

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

rosstin wrote:This was the one I was thinking of:

"Orc non-priests can bow down to Saint Roka as their messiah. Their goal is then to ensure that he gets the Orb and gets out safely."

I assumed you didn't mean that one and found this even more appropriate one here:

2057. Ability to surrender to orc priest as orc and be converted to Beogh
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Post Thursday, 25th July 2013, 02:58

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

So one ability in the new Skald toolset that doesn't sit well with me is Song of Slaying.

It's hard to use, expensive, and not very effect when it does work, I end up just not using it.

What I was thinking is this:

1. Once cast the spell stays active, it can be cancelled with a command from the ability menu
2. It has a maintenance cost, something on the order of 1 mana/5 rounds (such that you can regen the mana consumed, but it does take a bite out of your regen rate) Perhaps the over time cost should increase with the slaying bonus given.
3. Rather than simply disappearing altogether, your slaying bonuses decrease over time, faster at higher slaying bonuses. The final point of slaying should last a pretty substantial amount of time if you don't kill anything. The max your slaying can get to is determined by your charms (something like charms/3) Of course cancelling your song or running out of mana should eliminate the bonus immediately.
4. The sound your song makes increases in volume as your slaying bonuses increase (From near-whisper volume up to shout volume at max bonus)
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Post Friday, 26th July 2013, 07:57

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

I have a completely outside of the box idea on Skalds. To make them a little more intreresting and desirable. Just as Dragonkin get a breath weapon at Level 7 based on a color roll, have Skalds receive an instrument roll at 7, with different useful effects. They could have BREATH-like cooldown mechanics, though not all need to be literally wind instruments, but the feel would be similar to Zin reciting and poison breathing:

1) Lute: Activates a temporary VORPAL brand on melee weapons
2) Drum: Activates a buff similar to BERSERK
3) Flute: Activates a temporary REAPING brand on attack with the same % to create a friendly summon from corpses
4) Lyre: Treats the player as if INVISIBLE for the duration

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Post Friday, 26th July 2013, 15:29

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

robotcentaur wrote:I have a completely outside of the box idea on Skalds. To make them a little more intreresting and desirable. Just as Dragonkin get a breath weapon at Level 7 based on a color roll, have Skalds receive an instrument roll at 7, with different useful effects. They could have BREATH-like cooldown mechanics, though not all need to be literally wind instruments, but the feel would be similar to Zin reciting and poison breathing:

1) Lute: Activates a temporary VORPAL brand on melee weapons
2) Drum: Activates a buff similar to BERSERK
3) Flute: Activates a temporary REAPING brand on attack with the same % to create a friendly summon from corpses
4) Lyre: Treats the player as if INVISIBLE for the duration


The problem with this is that backgrounds are just that, backgrounds, starting kits of equipment (And a starting set of stat bonuses) that are otherwise obtainable in the game. You don't get things "later" from a background. In order to fit this into crawl, these items would have to be available (randomly) within crawl outside "Skald" backgrounds, and Skalds would have to start with one (all?) of them, and they would all have to have a balanced and working mechanic of some sort.

On a second note, I'm not sure if activatable items is really a good fit for the "Skald" background, the idea for a "Skald" currently is a fighter, who is supported by spellcasting.

Perhaps if the item designs were fleshed out (What skills do you use to activate them, how long is the breath cooldown, how do you recharge them) etc. and you applied them to a new sort of background who specialized in activated abilities and not magic (Call them say, "Bards" perhaps) it'd work a little better.
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Post Friday, 26th July 2013, 17:19

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

Backgrounds intentionally do not come with unique abilities; they're just a starting package of skills and items. Flute could an interesting evokable item, but three of them replicate existing items and/or spells, meaning that they don't particularly add much.

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Post Friday, 26th July 2013, 20:01

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

Siegurt wrote:
robotcentaur wrote:I have a completely outside of the box idea on Skalds. To make them a little more intreresting and desirable. Just as Dragonkin get a breath weapon at Level 7 based on a color roll, have Skalds receive an instrument roll at 7, with different useful effects. They could have BREATH-like cooldown mechanics, though not all need to be literally wind instruments, but the feel would be similar to Zin reciting and poison breathing:

1) Lute: Activates a temporary VORPAL brand on melee weapons
2) Drum: Activates a buff similar to BERSERK
3) Flute: Activates a temporary REAPING brand on attack with the same % to create a friendly summon from corpses
4) Lyre: Treats the player as if INVISIBLE for the duration


The problem with this is that backgrounds are just that, backgrounds, starting kits of equipment (And a starting set of stat bonuses) that are otherwise obtainable in the game. You don't get things "later" from a background. In order to fit this into crawl, these items would have to be available (randomly) within crawl outside "Skald" backgrounds, and Skalds would have to start with one (all?) of them, and they would all have to have a balanced and working mechanic of some sort.

On a second note, I'm not sure if activatable items is really a good fit for the "Skald" background, the idea for a "Skald" currently is a fighter, who is supported by spellcasting.

Perhaps if the item designs were fleshed out (What skills do you use to activate them, how long is the breath cooldown, how do you recharge them) etc. and you applied them to a new sort of background who specialized in activated abilities and not magic (Call them say, "Bards" perhaps) it'd work a little better.


Well said and you are right, backgrounds are kits while species own the intrinsics, link breath weapons, poison spit, flight, and a host of others. Perhaps the notion of the instruments would fit the game mechanics better as either:

1) A specie that had bard/music roots... something in the realm of a pastoral mythic race. Satyrs?
2) A new god of music that afforded the same.

To introduce the instruments in some fashion could give the Skald a good combo for god or race. Just as I've found that Cheibriados pairs so well with Monks (except centaurs) and Centaurs seem built to be Arcane Marksman. Imagine then a Satyr Skald OR a Skald that worshiped Orpheon (no "O" god yet ;) ), the sum greater then the parts.

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Post Friday, 26th July 2013, 22:14

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

minmay wrote:http://crawl.develz.org/info/index.php?q=implemented+bad+ideas

What the hell? That was my idea; it's not bad. =P
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Post Friday, 26th July 2013, 23:06

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

robotcentaur wrote:1) Lute: Activates a temporary VORPAL brand on melee weapons
2) Drum: Activates a buff similar to BERSERK
3) Flute: Activates a temporary REAPING brand on attack with the same % to create a friendly summon from corpses
4) Lyre: Treats the player as if INVISIBLE for the duration


These are cool ideas for evokables, how about a set of pipes that casts mass enslavement (pied piper style), but as mentioned before classes are starting kits and I believe no class has a item which can see them through the whole game.
Being music based some monsters would be immune.

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Post Saturday, 27th July 2013, 07:38

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

1010011010 wrote:
robotcentaur wrote:1) Lute: Activates a temporary VORPAL brand on melee weapons
2) Drum: Activates a buff similar to BERSERK
3) Flute: Activates a temporary REAPING brand on attack with the same % to create a friendly summon from corpses
4) Lyre: Treats the player as if INVISIBLE for the duration


These are cool ideas for evokables, how about a set of pipes that casts mass enslavement (pied piper style), but as mentioned before classes are starting kits and I believe no class has a item which can see them through the whole game.
Being music based some monsters would be immune.


Agreed. Makes me lean toward wanting them as evokable god gifts, like Nem's decks. I'm playing the new Skald and the spell selection is much improved. I'd love the dev team to consider implementing instuments as god gifts from Orpheon, god of music.

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Post Saturday, 3rd August 2013, 10:50

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

Hello, folks! I'm new here, but still, i want to make a few suggestions.
I've been playing DCSS from time to time for a few years already. Still have to beat it though. My favorite backgrounds always was battle mage hybrid, starting from Reaver and Crusader in a bit older versions. They were a lot of fun to play. And even though Skald differs from them gameplay-wise, I really like it. I think Crusader to Skald changes were good ones, cause original Crusaders felt more like magic-using berserks, not like a battle mages. Also, I've got to say, that usually have little to none problems playing early game with this background. Skalds' starting spells are awesome, while I can't see big problems in not being able to cast spells at level one - why do you even need magic to clear first floor? Skalds' one and only big weakness (aside from being hybrid) is their lack of a panic button spell. Crusaders had Berserk's Rage, Reavers - Mephitic Cloud. But so what? Monks (and I very often play them), Fighters, most of Zealots don't have it either. To say more - Skalds' spell set allows them to solve almost any problem they face early game. I mean, brand switching is awesome! You have frost brand for snakes, frogs, iguanas and imps; fire for ice beasts and undeads; poison for ogres, orc warriors and most of uniques. This spells are extremely useful. Same goes for protection spells. Shroud for melee, Repel for range and Regeneration for awesome. You just need to remember, that they aren't panic buttons, that's all.

And I have mixed feelings for a new starting spell set. I mean, it's awesome. This is very interesting spells with nice idea. And they work in perfect synergy. And that's the problem. Don't you think this is off in so many ways? This spell set looks like it had come from some Warcraft 3 hero. This spells isn't universal, like every one of DCSS spells. They all made for each other and they all dictate their own gameplay stile. And they are overpowered to much. They may not seem to, because in the beginning hero have no mana nor spellpower to make them shine, (and this is Crawl - you always can die miserably, no matter how strong you are. Especially in the beginning) but in extended play they'll get enormous. I mean:
1) Infusion - flat damage that scales for 1 MP per strike. Hello, quickblades butchering heavy armored targets, lot of guarantied damage in dice-rolling Crawl and devastating pain brand synergy.
2) Song of slaying - slaying for killing at 2 MP and noise cost? Seriously? It'll be nice and balanced, when alarm trap from your worst nightmare turns into nice way to clear floor. Just rush to a corridor and SoS will do it's work.
3) Spectral weapon - not enough? Lets have an endgame summon for 3 MP! Yes, it's not that awesome, when you get this at level 3. But later, when you manage to get a little better weapon and stack 2-3 kills with SoS - is this really normal?
4) Spirit Shield - well, this is fine. I mean idea of manashield is old, good and polished. But to have this as a guarantied spell...
Any melee will kill for first three spells. Such devastating power at low cost. I mean, even two points of damage on Infusion triples minimal damage in early game. It is much more then what brand spells gives early, while being a level 1 (and it's stacks). SoS is not even comparable to brand spell, while being same level 2 - it will insanely outmatch them in 80% of situations. And with Spectral weapon you literally get double attack speed that stacks with everything for 3 MP.
Any mage will kill for the fourth. While not being so awesome for hybrids, this spell will be totally overpowered for pure casters. Especially counting it's synergy with various mana channels.

For what I think, Skald is mostly fine and totally playable as they are. It still will be fun, if they have some little adjustments, that encourage their unique stile, while not being panacea. I'll be really glad to see brand spells being able to temporary overwrite existing weapon's brand.

And as for new spell set suggestion - it should be implemented, because it's awesome. But not like a starting spellbook. I think best way is to add 2-3 to each spells' level without doing much to them. I think, massive minimal damage increase, slot-less rings of slaying and Finesse that stacks with Finesse is good enough to be high level spells.

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Post Saturday, 3rd August 2013, 19:09

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

epsilon wrote:Hello, folks! I'm new here, but still, i want to make a few suggestions.
I've been playing DCSS from time to time for a few years already. Still have to beat it though. My favorite backgrounds always was battle mage hybrid, starting from Reaver and Crusader in a bit older versions. They were a lot of fun to play. And even though Skald differs from them gameplay-wise, I really like it. I think Crusader to Skald changes were good ones, cause original Crusaders felt more like magic-using berserks, not like a battle mages. Also, I've got to say, that usually have little to none problems playing early game with this background. Skalds' starting spells are awesome, while I can't see big problems in not being able to cast spells at level one - why do you even need magic to clear first floor? Skalds' one and only big weakness (aside from being hybrid) is their lack of a panic button spell. Crusaders had Berserk's Rage, Reavers - Mephitic Cloud. But so what? Monks (and I very often play them), Fighters, most of Zealots don't have it either. To say more - Skalds' spell set allows them to solve almost any problem they face early game. I mean, brand switching is awesome! You have frost brand for snakes, frogs, iguanas and imps; fire for ice beasts and undeads; poison for ogres, orc warriors and most of uniques. This spells are extremely useful. Same goes for protection spells. Shroud for melee, Repel for range and Regeneration for awesome. You just need to remember, that they aren't panic buttons, that's all.

And I have mixed feelings for a new starting spell set. I mean, it's awesome. This is very interesting spells with nice idea. And they work in perfect synergy. And that's the problem. Don't you think this is off in so many ways? This spell set looks like it had come from some Warcraft 3 hero. This spells isn't universal, like every one of DCSS spells. They all made for each other and they all dictate their own gameplay stile. And they are overpowered to much. They may not seem to, because in the beginning hero have no mana nor spellpower to make them shine, (and this is Crawl - you always can die miserably, no matter how strong you are. Especially in the beginning) but in extended play they'll get enormous. I mean:
1) Infusion - flat damage that scales for 1 MP per strike. Hello, quickblades butchering heavy armored targets, lot of guarantied damage in dice-rolling Crawl and devastating pain brand synergy.
2) Song of slaying - slaying for killing at 2 MP and noise cost? Seriously? It'll be nice and balanced, when alarm trap from your worst nightmare turns into nice way to clear floor. Just rush to a corridor and SoS will do it's work.
3) Spectral weapon - not enough? Lets have an endgame summon for 3 MP! Yes, it's not that awesome, when you get this at level 3. But later, when you manage to get a little better weapon and stack 2-3 kills with SoS - is this really normal?
4) Spirit Shield - well, this is fine. I mean idea of manashield is old, good and polished. But to have this as a guarantied spell...
Any melee will kill for first three spells. Such devastating power at low cost. I mean, even two points of damage on Infusion triples minimal damage in early game. It is much more then what brand spells gives early, while being a level 1 (and it's stacks). SoS is not even comparable to brand spell, while being same level 2 - it will insanely outmatch them in 80% of situations. And with Spectral weapon you literally get double attack speed that stacks with everything for 3 MP.
Any mage will kill for the fourth. While not being so awesome for hybrids, this spell will be totally overpowered for pure casters. Especially counting it's synergy with various mana channels.

For what I think, Skald is mostly fine and totally playable as they are. It still will be fun, if they have some little adjustments, that encourage their unique stile, while not being panacea. I'll be really glad to see brand spells being able to temporary overwrite existing weapon's brand.

And as for new spell set suggestion - it should be implemented, because it's awesome. But not like a starting spellbook. I think best way is to add 2-3 to each spells' level without doing much to them. I think, massive minimal damage increase, slot-less rings of slaying and Finesse that stacks with Finesse is good enough to be high level spells.


Ahem. I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with you on a couple of these. :|
1) Infusion: It's an earlygame buff, which is exactly what Skalds needed. If you try to rely on it late game, you're making a mistake. I very much doubt that 2-4 extra damage that saps your mana is going to help you much when a tentacled monstrosity rips off your arms.

2) Song of Slaying: The way it's currently implemented, I believe, means that it rarely gets beyond a +2 to +4 slaying bonus, in return for bringing down half the level on you. If it goes higher than that, you are fighting things that you should not be fighting. Leave and come back later. (I don't place much stock in this spell, because making a lot of noise is much worse than you think)

3) Spectral Weapon: It's good, I'll admit. But an endgame summon? It has low HP, barely any defenses, doesn't hit nearly as hard as your actual weapon (it's not "double attack speed"), transfers half the damage it takes onto you, and doesn't work in corridors or tight spaces. I've also noticed that some monsters seem to place attack priority on the weapon rather than you, since it's easy to destroy and gives a convenient way to harm you. Many low level spells are still useful at high levels (Repel Missiles, Swiftness, Summon Butterflies, Apportation, etc.), but this doesn't mean they should be made "2-3" spell levels higher.

4) Spirit Shield: This is not overpowered for pure casters. It's not even powered for pure casters. In fact, barring a very short list of very unlikely scenarios, it's one of the worst spells a pure caster can cast. Losing 40 mana in a single turn on your 140 HP caster because a few yaktaurs moved into view isn't a benefit; it's a disaster, and one that deprives you of nearly all of your offensive and defensive options. It can't even be canceled after you realize your mistake.

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Post Saturday, 3rd August 2013, 21:02

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

Azrael wrote:1) Infusion: It's an earlygame buff, which is exactly what Skalds needed. If you try to rely on it late game, you're making a mistake. I very much doubt that 2-4 extra damage that saps your mana is going to help you much when a tentacled monstrosity rips off your arms.

I don't feel that "need". Skalds can't steamroll through first ~5 floors of dungeon like berserkers or poison mages, but this is perfectly fine! They can face absolutely anything (except some crazy OOD) if they think a bit, even ogres at D:3. And, if you play Skald with a prebuff-fight style, without relying on attacking spells too much, you'll have plenty of mana to spent, so -1 mana per strike will not be a problem, I'm judging according to 15+ lvl Skalds I had. And, what is main point, this spell gives you 4 points of guarantied damage. This is hell of a lot for Crawl, where fights usually last for 5 misses, 6 "didn't manage to harm" and 2 actual hits. Btw, never ever had problems with big ugly things
Azrael wrote:2) Song of Slaying: The way it's currently implemented, I believe, means that it rarely gets beyond a +2 to +4 slaying bonus, in return for bringing down half the level on you. If it goes higher than that, you are fighting things that you should not be fighting. Leave and come back later. (I don't place much stock in this spell, because making a lot of noise is much worse than you think)

This spell requires a little different tactic than usual. You can profit greatly from noise part if you'll use stairs, corridors etc. And sometimes, you'll just have to deal with swarms of enemies, where this spell is priceless. Adapt your tactic for this spell, and hey - one more slotless Ring of Slaying.
Azrael wrote:3) Spectral Weapon: It's good, I'll admit. But an endgame summon? It has low HP, barely any defenses, doesn't hit nearly as hard as your actual weapon (it's not "double attack speed"), transfers half the damage it takes onto you, and doesn't work in corridors or tight spaces. I've also noticed that some monsters seem to place attack priority on the weapon rather than you, since it's easy to destroy and gives a convenient way to harm you. Many low level spells are still useful at high levels (Repel Missiles, Swiftness, Summon Butterflies, Apportation, etc.), but this doesn't mean they should be made "2-3" spell levels higher.

Only thing, that somewhat balances it - enemies, that priorities weapon instead of you. It is "fine", when it's used usual for summons way - to tank stuff. But what if you're the one who takes hits? Or you've got nice friends like abominations? Than it'll be one of most strong, if not the strongest, attacker. Yep it doesn't hit as hard as you, but it still hit really hard. Not comparable to any lvl 3 summon. Also, polearms should be useful in corridors. As for "useful in endgame low level spells" - most of them are:
a) Utility
b) Unique and doesn't have available alternatives.
I can recall only two actual battle spells, that _can_ be useful at high levels - Mephitic Cloud and Conjure flame. Still, mostly for their utility part.
And here you have three of them, in a bundle. Multiple brand spells can be really useful, if you'll manage to find really good non-branded weapon, but they at least don't stack.
Azrael wrote:4) Spirit Shield: This is not overpowered for pure casters. It's not even powered for pure casters. In fact, barring a very short list of very unlikely scenarios, it's one of the worst spells a pure caster can cast. Losing 40 mana in a single turn on your 140 HP caster because a few yaktaurs moved into view isn't a benefit; it's a disaster, and one that deprives you of nearly all of your offensive and defensive options. It can't even be canceled after you realize your mistake.

You've got it wrong. It can be great panic button. Even too great. You'll absolutely not use it often. And you'll never start new battle with this spell on - there is an amulet for this purposes. But being able to get 30+ HP from nowhere when your life is in mortal danger is awesome. But this is for pure casters. For Skalds it's just... meh.

I don't saying this spells is so overpowered, that they're break the game, no. They're too overpowered for their levels. Just think about it - what will really change, if they got two more levels? They'll just require actual Spellcasting and Charms training, pretty much according to their power. Mana cost is almost out of the question - they are all long-lasting buffs (I didn't suggest to make Infusion eat 3 MP per attack). They are not suited for being low level spells - at D:1 Infusion is arguable more useless that frost brand spells with 30% failure chance; they are too strong for low level spells; they have too much synergy for starting spell set - that isn't like Crawl at all; they are too unique for a low level spell - it's just weird, when other will get some little flamepuffs and bigger flamepuffs, Skalds'll have something unique with unusual mechanics and, actually, gamechanging.
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Post Saturday, 3rd August 2013, 22:16

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

The thing I don't really understand why Skalds don't have haste in their spellbook. Its a spellbook based on charms, thats like having FE's start without fireball, or EE's starting without LRD.
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Post Saturday, 3rd August 2013, 22:17

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

Probably because Haste is overpowered as hell, and should be kept in as few spellbooks as possible. Not that I would complain if it was put in :)

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Post Saturday, 3rd August 2013, 22:18

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

Tiktacy wrote:The thing I don't really understand why Skalds don't have haste in their spellbook. Its a spellbook based on charms, thats like having FE's start without fireball, or EE's starting without LRD.

haste on a starting spellbook holy fuck what are you even on?
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Post Saturday, 3rd August 2013, 22:23

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

uhm
have we forgotten about crusaders already
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Post Sunday, 4th August 2013, 03:26

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

Also, epsilon, welcome to the Tavern. Didn't mean to come off as too harsh... :oops:

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Post Sunday, 4th August 2013, 06:07

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

dck wrote:
Tiktacy wrote:The thing I don't really understand why Skalds don't have haste in their spellbook. Its a spellbook based on charms, thats like having FE's start without fireball, or EE's starting without LRD.

haste on a starting spellbook holy fuck what are you even on?


Azrael wrote:Probably because Haste is overpowered as hell, and should be kept in as few spellbooks as possible. Not that I would complain if it was put in :)


I have used haste before on a character, quite a lot actually, and it is no doubt one of the best spells in the game, but it doesn't come off as very overpowered to me unless you use it on your angels/T1Demons/Dragons. Even then...

I really don't understand why this forum thinks haste is the best thing since sliced bread, I mean come on guys! Its not game breaking in the slightest! XD

Speed brands are game breaking, Nemelex is game breaking, Early Golden Dragon Armour on an OgBe is game breaking, haste is NOT game breaking. It IS however, a very good spell. =)
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Post Sunday, 4th August 2013, 10:07

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

Haste is overpowered, because it lets you attack 1.5 times more in a turn... It should be at least nerfed to x1.25-1.33. And I think it must and will happen at some point.
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Post Sunday, 4th August 2013, 18:19

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

Amnesiac wrote:Haste is overpowered, because it lets you attack 1.5 times more in a turn... It should be at least nerfed to x1.25-1.33. And I think it must and will happen at some point.


And? Speed brands DOUBLE your attacks each turn, giving nearly the same effect(except it can stack!) as haste without contamination. From what I have heard, it was nerfed to 1.33. Maybe thats the reason everyone loves it: because they keep playing the older version of the game? I always play the newest update unless I want to play a conjurer of vehumet :P

If you are going to argue that it increases spellcasting capabilities, I have never been in a situation where I have needed that. A spellcaster in late game casting level 9 spells shouldn't NEED the speed bonus to plow through extended end game. =/

EDIT: Keep in mind, I still use it when I can, and it is by no means worthless. It is quite good actually, just not as OP as you guys say it is.
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