Discussion: Improving Skalds

[Volteccer_Jack]

Not gonna talk about Infusion because that spell is just a complete mess to even think about. I'll just say it's really dumb because all I do is cast it every single fight and then obsess over my MP bar like it's gonna turn into a cobra any second, both of which make me wanna just play a different class.

Song of Shouting is desperately in need of a rework/buff. During the part of the game when level 2 spells are supposed to be useful, the extremely low returns and short duration make it basically useless, and the mild risk of maybe attracting the attention of an orc wizard/priest makes it unbelievably dangerous any time you're fighting a large enough group for the spell to even be worth considering.

It's not good for anything until much later in the game when the duration is long enough to reliably last for more than a single engagement, and even then, it's only useful if you're comfortable fighting a large group of enemies in rapid succession AND comfortable with a hydra/titan/orb spider/whatever-other-dangerous-monster showing up in the middle of that fight. Basically it's only good if you can win without it, so there's no reason for any character to ever cast it. You're better off just NOT shouting every turn and dealing with the enemies in a controlled manner.

Plus it forces me to do dumb crap like beat an enemy up, but cast the song right before the killshot.

But this is for pure casters.

Think about what you are saying. What is the difference between a skald and "pure caster" (other than the fact that pure casters don't exist in skilled crawl play)? The difference is, a pure caster relies on MP much more, because it is his only real method of inflicting damage or escaping harm. Characters who have LESS use for MP get MORE use out of Song of Shielding, precisely because if you lose 40 MP in one turn, your character needs to have the skills to survive without that MP. "Pure casters" are the worst possible characters to use Song of Shielding. The best possible character isn't allowed to cast it, because he's worshipping Trog.

Anyway Song of Suicide sucks because the 40 MP you spend to save yourself once with it is enough to save your life five times over with Blink or Demonic Horde or Butterflies or Mephitic Cloud or Repel Missiles or Disjunction or any of a huge list of other spells that don't drain your entire MP bar. Or just killing the thing before it gets a chance to hurt you. One large rock from a stone giant instantly cripples you if you have this spell active. Repel/Deflect Missiles can deal with a large rock every turn for its entire duration.

I can recall only two actual battle spells, that _can_ be useful at high levels - Mephitic Cloud and Conjure flame.

Dazzling Spray
Ozocubu's Armour
Passwall
Static Discharge
Inner Flame
Spider Form
Stone Arrow
Confuse
Regeneration
Vampiric Draining

In fact, the few level 3 spells that aren't useful at high levels may be in need of buffing. Spectral Weapon isn't overpowered. It's just decent (which makes it vastly superior to both Songs).

[DracheReborn]

Btw, Song of Shielding works normally for Deep Dwarves. It probably shouldn't, since the regular amulet of guardian spirit sets MP to 0 and prevents MP regeneration in DD.

[DracheReborn]

I added some thoughts on the wiki, but the discussion here seems more active so I'll repost here.

No one seems to like Song of Shielding/Spirit Shield as it currently stands. I'd like to propose a couple of possible replacements that sort of follow similar principles:

Mana Force Field (or maybe just Force Field): gives damage reduction that scales with available MP (suitably capped). As you use MP (to attack, etc), the effectiveness of the field goes down.

Mana Aura: passive effect that damages enemies that hit you, similar to LO passive heat. For Mana Aura though, the damage is non-elemental and scales with available MP (suitably capped), becoming less as your MP goes down.

So like the intent of Song of Shielding, your unused mana pool is being put to work, just hopefully in a more effective manner.

I'd also suggest that one of Mana Force Field/Mana Aura move to L2, and putting Song of Slaying to L4 instead. As Volteccer_Jack points out, SoS is more suitable for use at higher level anyway.

[graffen69]

Does the Spell http://crawl.chaosforge.org/Spectral_Weapon from the book of Battle work with ranged launchers?

[DracheReborn]

Nope Spectral Weapon doesn't work on launchers. SW on a launcher would be, well, Battlesphere

[and into]

Song of shielding's problem seems to stem from guardian spirit problem, maybe better to fix underlying mechanic, but since this thread is focused on skalds a few quick ideas:

1.) Just a straight-up buff to song of shielding, i.e., 1dX or even a percentage of damage (or either, take higher of the two) is absorbed per mana. And/or the shield disappears after a certain amount of mana has been drained, so it is never going to COMPLETELY drain you all of the sudden, which as volteccer_Jack points out, is too risky to be worthwhile. (In other words, in situations where you actually feel meaningfully threatened, it is too risky to use, and when you don't feel meaningfully threatened, you aren't casting defense or escape type spells.) I think this is what DracheReborn was getting at. In this case, rather than see MP damage as the "trade off," trading MP for HP, it would be implementing a spell that gives a powerful form of defense, albeit at a significant cost of MP drain.

2.) Other idea: Reduce maximum mana by a certain percentage, provide significant defense boost. Keeps the general design of "restricting MP, but powerful defense effect," which is a neat idea and thematic for skalds, but hasn't been well implemented yet.

3.) DracheReborn's idea for some kind of passive damage would be a new direction to offer in the Book of Battle; there are other effects like it in game, but none offered through a spell in starting books.

Not gonna talk about Infusion because that spell is just a complete mess to even think about. I'll just say it's really dumb because all I do is cast it every single fight and then obsess over my MP bar like it's gonna turn into a cobra any second, both of which make me wanna just play a different class.

Song of Shouting is desperately in need of a rework/buff. During the part of the game when level 2 spells are supposed to be useful, the extremely low returns and short duration make it basically useless, and the mild risk of maybe attracting the attention of an orc wizard/priest makes it unbelievably dangerous any time you're fighting a large enough group for the spell to even be worth considering.

It's not good for anything until much later in the game when the duration is long enough to reliably last for more than a single engagement, and even then, it's only useful if you're comfortable fighting a large group of enemies in rapid succession AND comfortable with a hydra/titan/orb spider/whatever-other-dangerous-monster showing up in the middle of that fight. Basically it's only good if you can win without it, so there's no reason for any character to ever cast it. You're better off just NOT shouting every turn and dealing with the enemies in a controlled manner.

Plus it forces me to do dumb crap like beat an enemy up, but cast the song right before the killshot.

Do you think the problem with infusion would be solved by tweaking the numbers a bit, or is it more fundamentally how the spell operates? The Book of Battle needs a solid level 1 or 2 spell, as the whole reform to skalds happened because a lot of people found them frustrating as they had no really appropriate staple spell for the first few floors. On the other hand, it is not a good thing if one ends up casting infusion before every battle. It is fine that you have one spell you spam through the first couple of levels of dungeon, but it seems that infusion overstays its welcome. It seems the problem is partly that there aren't a ton of other options in the book that compete in the early and mid-game, so the MP cost of infusion is, in practice, a source of annoyance rather than providing tactical decisions. ("Well if I cast this, it might stop me from casting this other spell...") How much of this is intrinsic to infusion, and how much of it is simply a symptom of not caring about casting other things from the book in the early game?

[Siegurt]

Song of shielding's problem seems to stem from guardian spirit problem, maybe better to fix underlying mechanic, but since this thread is focused on skalds a few quick ideas:

1.) Just a straight-up buff to song of shielding, i.e., 1dX or even a percentage of damage (or either, take higher of the two) is absorbed per mana. And/or the shield disappears after a certain amount of mana has been drained, so it is never going to COMPLETELY drain you all of the sudden, which as volteccer_Jack points out, is too risky to be worthwhile. (In other words, in situations where you actually feel meaningfully threatened, it is too risky to use, and when you don't feel meaningfully threatened, you aren't casting defense or escape type spells.) I think this is what DracheReborn was getting at. In this case, rather than see MP damage as the "trade off," trading MP for HP, it would be implementing a spell that gives a powerful form of defense, albeit at a significant cost of MP drain.

2.) Other idea: Reduce maximum mana by a certain percentage, provide significant defense boost. Keeps the general design of "restricting MP, but powerful defense effect," which is a neat idea and thematic for skalds, but hasn't been well implemented yet.

3.) DracheReborn's idea for some kind of passive damage would be a new direction to offer in the Book of Battle; there are other effects like it in game, but none offered through a spell in starting books.

Not gonna talk about Infusion because that spell is just a complete mess to even think about. I'll just say it's really dumb because all I do is cast it every single fight and then obsess over my MP bar like it's gonna turn into a cobra any second, both of which make me wanna just play a different class.

Song of Shouting is desperately in need of a rework/buff. During the part of the game when level 2 spells are supposed to be useful, the extremely low returns and short duration make it basically useless, and the mild risk of maybe attracting the attention of an orc wizard/priest makes it unbelievably dangerous any time you're fighting a large enough group for the spell to even be worth considering.

It's not good for anything until much later in the game when the duration is long enough to reliably last for more than a single engagement, and even then, it's only useful if you're comfortable fighting a large group of enemies in rapid succession AND comfortable with a hydra/titan/orb spider/whatever-other-dangerous-monster showing up in the middle of that fight. Basically it's only good if you can win without it, so there's no reason for any character to ever cast it. You're better off just NOT shouting every turn and dealing with the enemies in a controlled manner.

Plus it forces me to do dumb crap like beat an enemy up, but cast the song right before the killshot.

Do you think the problem with infusion would be solved by tweaking the numbers a bit, or is it more fundamentally how the spell operates? The Book of Battle needs a solid level 1 or 2 spell, as the whole reform to skalds happened because a lot of people found them frustrating as they had no really appropriate staple spell for the first few floors. On the other hand, it is not a good thing if one ends up casting infusion before every battle. It is fine that you have one spell you spam through the first couple of levels of dungeon, but it seems that infusion overstays its welcome. It seems the problem is partly that there aren't a ton of other options in the book that compete in the early and mid-game, so the MP cost of infusion is, in practice, a source of annoyance rather than providing tactical decisions. ("Well if I cast this, it might stop me from casting this other spell...") How much of this is intrinsic to infusion, and how much of it is simply a symptom of not caring about casting other things from the book in the early game?

Well, for me at least, I stop casting infusion at some point, i think it's problem stems from the facts that:
Always a benefit, it never stops being the same d4 damage it starts as (This could be solved by applying AC to it, early game it'd be great, as things started having AC, it'd do no damage, however I think the player wouldn't know that it was now useless unless it got a message)
Duration is in excess of it's usefulness, Early game, spending all your mana on it is great, when I have other stuff to spend mana on, I'd like to be able to shut it off (Adding an ability to dispel it would help a lot here)


The next thing that's significantly useful in the book is spectral weapon (Which works fantastically) Slaying suffers from the problems mentioned above, I memorize it as a skald, but almost never cast it (but not *never* just nearly never)

Guardian spirit is just an annoying thing for a spellcaster to have, you don't want it unless you have literally no other use for your mana. Perhaps some kind of chance of long term minor max-mana-rot that wears off in exchange for absorbing some damage would work better, I'm not sure. The only other thing that I thought of was that it can function as a kind of "damage battery" storing it up and then dishing it back at you over time so you don't suffer the blow all at once, if you load it up too full the damage/time backlash could get very nasty and possibly kill ya (To be slightly more clear what I have in mind is that when the duration of the Song of Shielding ends, you start taking the damage that it 'soaked' for you, spread out over a certain number of rounds higher spellpower could mean more rounds to spread the damage back over, but it might be enough that you could regen/heal it instead)

[Kate]

Well, for me at least, I stop casting infusion at some point, i think it's problem stems from the facts that:
Always a benefit, it never stops being the same d4 damage it starts as (This could be solved by applying AC to it, early game it'd be great, as things started having AC, it'd do no damage, however I think the player wouldn't know that it was now useless unless it got a message)
Duration is in excess of it's usefulness, Early game, spending all your mana on it is great, when I have other stuff to spend mana on, I'd like to be able to shut it off (Adding an ability to dispel it would help a lot here)

<Cheibriados> MarvinPA * 0.13-a0-2276-g90cba50: Apply AC to infusion damage, don't reduce MP when no damage is dealt (10 weeks ago, 1 file, 10+ 2-) http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a= ... cba503bd94

[DracheReborn]

FWIW, I think Infusion is fine. It's a L1 spell meant to be an early game boost, and I think we all mostly agree that it's working for that purpose. The bigger problem maybe is whether it's just free slotless slaying on a more powerful character. I think no, because the MP drain makes me wary of using it when I have other, better spells to use. Having AC apply against it is another step discouraging use at higher levels, but IMO it's a bit redundant. It's also a nerf for UC skalds like Fe or Gh, since those guys in my experience lean on Infusion a whole lot more than weapon wielders.

[Siegurt]

Well, for me at least, I stop casting infusion at some point, i think it's problem stems from the facts that:
Always a benefit, it never stops being the same d4 damage it starts as (This could be solved by applying AC to it, early game it'd be great, as things started having AC, it'd do no damage, however I think the player wouldn't know that it was now useless unless it got a message)
Duration is in excess of it's usefulness, Early game, spending all your mana on it is great, when I have other stuff to spend mana on, I'd like to be able to shut it off (Adding an ability to dispel it would help a lot here)

<Cheibriados> MarvinPA * 0.13-a0-2276-g90cba50: Apply AC to infusion damage, don't reduce MP when no damage is dealt (10 weeks ago, 1 file, 10+ 2-) http://s-z.org/neil/git/?p=crawl.git;a= ... cba503bd94

Well, that's good at least (I am way behind on my commits aren't I? ), although I guess I think that watching my MP on every hit to see if I'm still doing damage is a bit.. subtle and having a message like "Your magical infusion doesn't seem to effect the <foo>" would still kind klonk me on the head with a "this level 1 spell is no longer useful, stop casting it and forget it "

[Volteccer_Jack]

It's a L1 spell meant to be an early game boost, and I think we all mostly agree that it's working for that purpose.

It's a level 1 spell that is useless at level 1 (unless you picked DE or one of the couple other races with similarly huge mp). That sounds like pretty much the opposite of working if you ask me. ESPECIALLY considering that the lack of a level 1 spell is basically the entire reason Skald supposedly needed a revamp. At XL2 it still has very limited use because Shroud is drawing from your MP pool now. Skald is functionally the same as ever until XL3, when you memorize Spectral Weapon. Infusion doesn't even start making a genuine difference until you have enough MP to use both it and Spectral Weapon simultaneously. And by that point it's degenerated to the rut of "slotless slaying".

It's also a nerf for UC skalds like Fe or Gh, since those guys in my experience lean on Infusion a whole lot more than weapon wielders.

UC skald is just as bad now as it ever was, and you'd still have to be insane to pick it over Monk/Transmuter. All you're doing is trading Repel Missile for Infusion. One of those increases survivability against a number of significant enemies and stays relevant for the entire game; the other is basically a really MP-expensive brand spell.

Do you think the problem with infusion would be solved by tweaking the numbers a bit, or is it more fundamentally how the spell operates? The Book of Battle needs a solid level 1 or 2 spell, as the whole reform to skalds happened because a lot of people found them frustrating as they had no really appropriate staple spell for the first few floors.

Draining MP-per-attack is really silly on a level 1 spell because you don't have any MP yet; it belongs on a level 3+ spell at the very least. And the effect isn't interesting anyway; so you have a wacky gimmick cost attached to a simple buff spell. You just use it as free slaying until you have something better to spend MP on, and then you abandon it.

Spectral Weapon is the only new skald spell that I think is interesting and salvageable without a complete redesign, and it's extremely awkward and annoying and generally unpleasant to use in its current form. If it were up to me, I'd just bring back old Skald with starting rage potion, and maybe make Shroud of Golubria a level 1 spell.

[Siegurt]

It's a level 1 spell that is useless at level 1 (unless you picked DE or one of the couple other races with similarly huge mp). That sounds like pretty much the opposite of working if you ask me.

It works as well or better at level 1 than most level 1 spells work. 3 MP for an extra 2d4 damage with only 1 turn cost while you *get to beat on them with your weapon too* It is better than 3 magic darts at level 1 at least. I find level 1 Skalds to be easier than level 1 conjurers and on par with level 1 gladiators for ease of getting to level 2, calling it 'useless' to me speaks of someone who hasn't used it as it should be used.

You just use it as free slaying until you have something better to spend MP on, and then you abandon it.

That's exactly what a level 1 spell should be, useful in the early dungeon, then ditched later.

[DracheReborn]

FWIW VJ, I like reading your posts, even when you violently disagree with me

ESPECIALLY considering that the lack of a level 1 spell is basically the entire reason Skald supposedly needed a revamp. At XL2 it still has very limited use because Shroud is drawing from your MP pool now. Skald is functionally the same as ever until XL3, when you memorize Spectral Weapon. Infusion doesn't even start making a genuine difference until you have enough MP to use both it and Spectral Weapon simultaneously. And by that point it's degenerated to the rut of "slotless slaying".

At XL2, failure rate of Shroud (dual school) is still much higher than Infusion. For me at least, I'd stick with Infusion for a little longer as my main buff. I certainly wouldn't use SW at XL3, both because of high failure rate and because of relatively weak weapon. SW doesn't begin to shine until a) you have a decent weapon; and b) spell power is high enough that SW won't die in a few hits. So IMO there's still a fairly large gap where a new skald's main buffs would be casting Shroud and then use the remaining MP for Infusion.

UC skald is just as bad now as it ever was, and you'd still have to be insane to pick it over Monk/Transmuter. All you're doing is trading Repel Missile for Infusion. One of those increases survivability against a number of significant enemies and stays relevant for the entire game; the other is basically a really MP-expensive brand spell.

I'd argue that RM doesn't make much of an impact until you start seeing centaurs, while Infusion gives you a boost earlier. That it is MP expensive doesn't matter early, unless you're really lucky with book drops. Agreed though that UC skald is still fairly weak - too bad song of slaying/shielding don't work very well, because in theory they should boost UC skald too.

Spectral Weapon is the only new skald spell that I think is interesting and salvageable without a complete redesign, and it's extremely awkward and annoying and generally unpleasant to use in its current form. If it were up to me, I'd just bring back old Skald with starting rage potion, and maybe make Shroud of Golubria a level 1 spell.

I think the old brand spells are definitely stronger/more useful than almost every new Skald spell except maybe SW. The problem is, like Shroud they're all at least L2 and dual school to boot. Getting from start of the game to the point where L2 spells are fairly reliable (for whatever your definition of reliable is) is a weak point, and I do think Infusion helps there.

[epsilon]

Playing as DsSk right now. I had a deeper look at new spells, and I'm going to say, that I was both right and wrong about my opinion on them. These spells isn't overpowered for sure, that was my mistake for judging them only by description. But they don't work too well as starting spell - I haven't changed my mind there.

Infusion is kinda awkward. I'm not even sure if it does any damage. Is it simply increases attack damage now, or is it works like additional hit (that can be reduced by AC)? 'Cause, if it first - it's useful. If second - useless.
SoS is... Well... It's good, actually. When I memorized it on ~XL10, I had a few situations, where this spell was very useful. It does wonders against packs, where you can kill two, maybe three monsters, but hardly can face them all (Yaks, bees, ugly things etc). But as a level 2 spell it has almost no use, when you get it. In ~10 runs (i died hell lot)I had just one single situation, where I used this song, killed three orcs and then heroically slaughtered an ogre.
SW is awesome. I not sure, is it overpowered or not (or more like I don't want it to be nerfed to hell), but this skill makeups for previous two by a ton. It's like you take a speed brand, bake it into working with others, spice it with means of escape and damage reduction and serve it for three mana. Seriously? I mean, is there anyone who didn't tried it with polearms? It rocks to the point it should be considered as cheating.
SoSh - just lol.

To be honest, I don't get all this thing about: "Skalds doesn't have level 1 spell, so they need a early-game boost". But Skalds isn't fragile mages - it's like you can just faceroll first floor, get freaking second XL with every freaking specie and memorize your freaking spells! All I ever wanted for them, is brand spells that work on branded weapons.

[Volteccer_Jack]

It works as well or better at level 1 than most level 1 spells work. 3 MP for an extra 2d4 damage with only 1 turn cost while you *get to beat on them with your weapon too* It is better than 3 magic darts at level 1 at least.

First of all, Infusion's damage is 2+(spellpower/25), meaning at XL1 (and for pretty much the entire pre-Spectral Weapon time period) it is only 2 extra damage. Even a Troll Conjurer starts the game with sufficient spellpower for Magic Dart to inflict 1d4. If you are playing something with a good Conj aptitude, a single Magic Dart will be equivalent to 3 uses of Infusion. And Magic Dart is one of the weaker level 1 spells.

The fact that you have to be close to a monster to damage it is a bad thing. If I see an adder, or a hobgoblin wielding a decent weapon, or a gnoll, or god-forbid an ogre, I will take Magic Dart 100 times out of 100 over Infusion. I would also take Shroud of Golubria 100 times out of 100 over Infusion in the same situations and for the same reason. I don't want those monsters to hit me.

You just use it as free slaying until you have something better to spend MP on, and then you abandon it.

That's exactly what a level 1 spell should be, useful in the early dungeon, then ditched later.

Except it's not useful in the early dungeon. It doesn't start making a significant contribution until around Temple IME. And as for the "ditched later" part, my current tesk is on his way to a second rune and still using Infusion as "free slaying". Hell, it doesn't even start doing the full 4 damage until you have like 10+ Charms, and by that point you're probably almost done with Lair.

Infusion is a level 3+ spell in terms of cost. It is a level 3+ spell in terms of effect. It is a level 3+ spell in terms of the parts of the game where it is most useful. It is confusingly disguised as a level 1 spell, for no apparent reason.

[Lasty]

I've been playing MfSks recently, and Infusion has been a very nice boost for me. Starting with 3 mp means Infusion is a big boost against early jackal packs and groups of weapon-wielding humanoids. Even by the time I get to adders, I usually prefer to have Infusion on than Shroud, if I have to pick between the two. In the earlier parts of the game, +2 damage is a huge boost and can significantly increase survivability.

Let me also second that Spectral Weapon is nuts with polearms; you can just park it behind you and get something like 2x damage with brand and not even suffer the drawbacks of taking damage from your weapon getting hit or having to recast it. Once I have it castable and ~7-9 mana, I cast one before every fight when I can, and I expect I'll continue to do so all game. It seems to increase your damage output more than Haste and it stacks with Haste.

[Siegurt]

Let me also second that Spectral Weapon is nuts with polearms; you can just park it behind you and get something like 2x damage with brand and not even suffer the drawbacks of taking damage from your weapon getting hit or having to recast it. Once I have it castable and ~7-9 mana, I cast one before every fight when I can, and I expect I'll continue to do so all game. It seems to increase your damage output more than Haste and it stacks with Haste.

At low spell power it does less damage than haste, it uses a percentage of your weapon skill based on spell power to determine how much damage the weapon does, although even at low spell power it's not bad by any means. At high power it of course is better than haste for melee damage (Well, in most respects, there's some edge cases)

[Volteccer_Jack]

Polearms don't make Spectral Weapon stronger they just bypass a bunch of the annoying crap associated with Spectral Weapon and prevent it from getting nuked every time you fight a guy with an axe (aka every ten seconds).

Starting with 3 mp means Infusion is a big boost against early jackal packs and groups of weapon-wielding humanoids.

No, it means Infusion hits 2-4 times (generously assuming the fight lasts that long) which is a minor boost, on par with casting Magic Dart once or twice. And Magic Dart is considered one of the bad level 1 spells.

[epsilon]

Polearms don't make Spectral Weapon stronger they just bypass a bunch of the annoying crap associated with Spectral Weapon and prevent it from getting nuked every time you fight a guy with an axe (aka every ten seconds).

Polearms make this spell work in corridors (where you want to fight 100% of time as a melee character), not waste an attack when fighting more than one enemy and changing target and allows usage of this spell as a meat shield for 1-3 strong enough melee attacks, effectively granting 50% damage reduction without losing ability to attack. Yep, totally nothing strong here.

[Lasty]

Polearms don't make Spectral Weapon stronger they just bypass a bunch of the annoying crap associated with Spectral Weapon and prevent it from getting nuked every time you fight a guy with an axe (aka every ten seconds).

The "annoying crap" is also known as "the only drawbacks on this spell". With polearms, this spell has no drawbacks against most monsters (I learned today it's still not great versus anyone w/ fireball), including the actually-signficant issue with axes you just mentioned.

No, it means Infusion hits 2-4 times (generously assuming the fight lasts that long) which is a minor boost, on par with casting Magic Dart once or twice. And Magic Dart is considered one of the bad level 1 spells.

Have you looked at the stats on jackals? Their average hp is 5.5, meaning that adding 2 damage to even weak attacks greatly increases the odds that each one will go down in 1-2 hits, instead of 2-8 hits. As others have pointed out, Magic Dart is something you do instead of swinging a weapon, but Infuse is something you use one turn on and then start swinging a weapon. Swinging a weapon is already a solution to a lot of monsters, and Infuse increases the effectiveness of that solution by a noticeable amount during a time when it could use a boost.

[Galefury]

To be fair, magic dart can be used at range, so you usually also do it in addition to swinging your weapon. And if the damage turns out to be bad and the enemy is still at some distance you can just start walking away until your mana is full and try again, or go up some stairs, which doesn't work so well with infusion. But infusion certainly does some extra damage, and is better than not having a level 1 spell, so I agree that it serves it's purpose. It worked quite well for me. Characters that start with magic dart don't get a starting weapon and weapon skill in addition to it, so comparing magic dart and infusion isn't all that relevant IMO.

[Lasty]

To be fair, magic dart can be used at range, so you usually also do it in addition to swinging your weapon. And if the damage turns out to be bad and the enemy is still at some distance you can just start walking away until your mana is full and try again, or go up some stairs, which doesn't work so well with infusion.

If the enemies are already close to you, then you don't get the luxury of using MD in addition to swinging your weapon, and if you start w/ Magic Dart you have neither a starting weapon nor starting weapon skill, as you point out. Also, if we're talking about jackals (and I was), you can't just walk away, unless you're a spriggan or centaur.

But infusion certainly does some extra damage, and is better than not having a level 1 spell, so I agree that it serves it's purpose. It worked quite well for me. Characters that start with magic dart don't get a starting weapon and weapon skill in addition to it, so comparing magic dart and infusion isn't all that relevant IMO.

Agreed. Comparing the two isn't very useful, but the important thing is that Infusion does actually give some assist against things that are somewhat challenging for low-level skalds.