Discussion: Improving Skalds


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Post Tuesday, 25th June 2013, 01:32

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

XuaXua wrote:Got a full summary of the changes?


This is the changelog entry:

  Code:
* The Skald background gets a reworked spellbook with four new spells:
    - Infusion grants additional melee damage costing MP with each strike;
    - Song of Slaying grants an incremental slaying bonus with every monster
      killed (of sufficient threat level);
    - Spectral Weapon creates an allied spectral clone of your weapon
      which strikes enemies in melee when you do.
    - Song of Shielding has a similar effect to Spirit Shield, trading HP
      loss for MP loss.


Obviously that doesn't go into a lot of detail, but see earlier posts in this thread which provide a lot more detail than there is room for in the changelog!

Edit: I missed one of the spells, updated.

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Post Tuesday, 25th June 2013, 08:09

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

mumra wrote: - Song of Slaying grants an incremental slaying bonus with every monster
killed (of sufficient threat level);

The in-game description says that it enhances melee skills (like Oki?), so it can be confusing a little.

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Post Tuesday, 25th June 2013, 16:02

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

Hooray! It's in!
git pull

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Post Tuesday, 25th June 2013, 16:37

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

blinkfrog wrote:The in-game description says that it enhances melee skills (like Oki?), so it can be confusing a little.


Ok, yeah that needs updating, thanks.

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Post Tuesday, 25th June 2013, 17:30

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

The build I pulled last night (0.13-a0-1998-g472aeb6) has no spell description for Infusion, Song of Slaying, Spectral Weapon, or Song of Shielding , at least when viewed from (r)ead spell book
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Post Tuesday, 25th June 2013, 19:24

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

I had time last night to get three or so of the new skalds killed, but I also had the chance to play with all the new spells and I must say that the background now plays more or less how I wanted it to when I first started playing and saw skald in the menu.

Brief summary of changes: start with weapon of choice, leather, and potion of berserk rage. Book of War Chants is replaced with Book of Battle containing Infusion, Song of Slaying, Shroud of Golubria, Spectral Weapon, Regeneration, and Song of Shielding. Also starts with Infusion memorized.

Edit: got ninjaed by about 5 people there

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Post Tuesday, 25th June 2013, 19:53

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

The new spells really are powerfull. I quickly tried a HESk and found myself more confident than with all my previous skalds. Infusion is a really improvement to damage leading to oneshot any early mob. For the test,I tried some DESk and I found the survability really increased. I felt what people like crate, minmay or cerebovsquire (blue people) told for nearly all asking for advice : dealing more damage is the best way to survive. The new skald deals much damage than before (maybe a bit to much), and I think it can be fun to try it on a stealth way (with only stealth and low stabbing). Oh, and quicick question on the same topic : are the damage from infusion or song of slaying multiplied through stabbing (like basic damage)?

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Post Tuesday, 25th June 2013, 20:05

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

We now have songs, and the Book of War Chants does not contain them. Maybe a book-name swap?

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Post Tuesday, 25th June 2013, 20:25

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

Siegurt wrote:The build I pulled last night (0.13-a0-1998-g472aeb6) has no spell description for Infusion, Song of Slaying, Spectral Weapon, or Song of Shielding , at least when viewed from (r)ead spell book


This sounds like an error with your database cache updating, they certainly work for me. Try deleting your cache files.

Cedor wrote:Oh, and quicick question on the same topic : are the damage from infusion or song of slaying multiplied through stabbing (like basic damage)?


Song of Slaying bonus is accuracy/damage like rings of slaying, so this will stack with other forms of damage. Infusion however is add on after the stabbing bonus has been calculated so it won't multiply (although this still makes your stabs slightly stronger of course!)

Speleothing wrote:We now have songs, and the Book of War Chants does not contain them. Maybe a book-name swap?


I was considering something like this. Another option is to rename Book of Battle to something else more song-like and in fact reflavour several of the War Chants songs to be songs as well. This does raise a number of questions however such as whether these spells should be mutually exclusive. Currently Song of Slaying and Song of Shielding will stack which seems odd (but Song of Shielding actually only just got renamed from Spirit Shield so this wasn't considered yet).

I'd also like to rename song of Shielding, it doesn't sound like a very rousing topic for a song. Perhaps "Song of Spirit" or even "Dirge of Defense" (this would make the acronym less conflicting). Should Infusion and Spectral Weapon be songs too? Song of Striking, Ballad of the Blade?

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Post Tuesday, 25th June 2013, 20:36

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

Surely we can do better than "[Song] of [Game Mechanic.]"

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Post Tuesday, 25th June 2013, 21:07

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

If one spell is named "song of whatever" then it's sort of thematic and it's a good idea. I don't like having more than one spell like this, though. It raises the question of how you can sing two songs at once (this is not something I'd ever want to restrict btw). Also, song of slaying can be ended manually right now via "stop singing", but song of shielding can't be.

Overall I think song of shielding just needs to be renamed again. Of course, spirit shield was an even worse name.

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Post Tuesday, 25th June 2013, 22:22

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

evilmike wrote:If one spell is named "song of whatever" then it's sort of thematic and it's a good idea. I don't like having more than one spell like this, though. It raises the question of how you can sing two songs at once (this is not something I'd ever want to restrict btw). Also, song of slaying can be ended manually right now via "stop singing", but song of shielding can't be.

Overall I think song of shielding just needs to be renamed again. Of course, spirit shield was an even worse name.


if it gets renamed can it have a wizard name in it, i really like it when spells have wizard names in them

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Post Tuesday, 25th June 2013, 22:27

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

Ode to the blade? Hymn of foo? Poems? Commandment march?
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Post Tuesday, 25th June 2013, 22:44

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

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Post Tuesday, 25th June 2013, 22:59

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

nicolae wrote:if it gets renamed can it have a wizard name in it, i really like it when spells have wizard names in them


Tukima's Battlepants

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Post Wednesday, 26th June 2013, 00:19

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

evilmike wrote:It raises the question of how you can sing two songs at once.


a) Magic and b) presumably these aren't songs in the modern sense so much as a refrain of magic sylabels woven into a melody.

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Post Wednesday, 26th June 2013, 00:25

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

mumra wrote:
nicolae wrote:if it gets renamed can it have a wizard name in it, i really like it when spells have wizard names in them


Tukima's Battlepants


works for me

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Post Wednesday, 26th June 2013, 00:59

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

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Post Wednesday, 26th June 2013, 01:07

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

evilmike wrote:It raises the question of how you can sing two songs at once (this is not something I'd ever want to restrict btw).

Huh! And here I was thinking it might be interesting if we had a class of powerful buffs that:

* Are mutually exclusive
* Ruin your stealth
* (Maybe) cause a wizardry malus
* Are dispelled by things that affect sound (definitely silence, maybe curare, maybe maybe alarm traps/very loud spells)

The evil part of me was thinking the player Haste spell would be a nice candidate for this class of buffs. (And yes, I realize this goes too far into KOL territory.)
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Post Wednesday, 26th June 2013, 03:50

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

ah, thats why I thought they would be interesting ;)
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Post Wednesday, 26th June 2013, 06:20

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

This is very strange, I can't see that my spectral weapon (elven long sword) strikes at all. It just works as additional part of me taking enemy damage. Of course Spectral weapon is adjacent to both of me and foe and has the chance of attacking.

  Code:
_You draw out your weapon's spirit! The gnoll barely misses you.
_The gnoll barely misses you. The gnoll misses you.
 You slash the gnoll!
 You kill the gnoll!
_The gnoll closely misses you. x2
 You slash the gnoll!
 You kill the gnoll!
 Your Translocations skill increases to level 1!
 The gnoll sergeant throws a glowing spear.
 The glowing spear hits you!
_The weapon returns to the gnoll sergeant!
 The gnoll sergeant throws a spear of returning.
 The spear of returning hits you!
_The weapon returns to the gnoll sergeant!
 You see here a spear.
 The gnoll sergeant throws a spear of returning.
 The spear of returning hits you!
_The weapon returns to the gnoll sergeant!
_The gnoll sergeant hits you from afar with a spear of returning.
_The gnoll sergeant misses you.
 A gnoll comes into view. It is wielding a flail.
 The gnoll sergeant blocks your attack.
_The gnoll sergeant hits you but does no damage.
 You hit the gnoll sergeant!
 The gnoll sergeant is moderately wounded.
 The gnoll sergeant hits your spectral weapon with a spear of returning.
_Your spectral weapon shares its damage with you!
 The gnoll sergeant blocks your attack.
 The gnoll sergeant is moderately wounded.
_The gnoll sergeant hits you but does no damage.
 You slash the gnoll sergeant!
 The gnoll sergeant is severely wounded.
_The gnoll sergeant hits you with a spear of returning.
 You slash the gnoll sergeant!
 You kill the gnoll sergeant!
 Your Armour skill increases to level 2!
_You have reached level 7!
 You slash the gnoll!!
_You kill the gnoll!
_Your spectral weapon fades away.


edit: I suppose that my example not quite correct because most foes are killed by one hit, but the battles with beefer foes are looking like above as well.

edit2: example2 (another character):
  Code:
 You draw out your weapon's spirit! The adder bites you.
 You are poisoned.
_The adder poisons you!
_You barely miss the adder. The adder barely misses you.
 You closely miss the adder. You feel sick.
_The adder bites you but does no damage.
 You miss the adder. You feel sick. The adder bites you but does no damage.
 The adder bites you.
 You are more poisoned.
 The adder poisons you!
_Your magical contamination has completely faded away.
 You closely miss the adder. You feel sick.
 You feel a little better.
_The adder bites you.
_You miss the adder. The adder bites you.
 You hit the adder.
 The adder is moderately wounded.
_You feel sick. The adder bites you. The adder bites you but does no damage.
 You hit the adder!
 You kill the adder!
 You have reached level 4!

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Post Wednesday, 26th June 2013, 07:00

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

blinkfrog wrote:This is very strange, I can't see that my spectral weapon (elven long sword) strikes at all. It just works as additional part of me taking enemy damage. Of course Spectral weapon is adjacent to both of me and foe and has the chance of attacking.


I just tested and I'm seeing the same thing. There seems to be a bug introduced by a recent update. Looking into it now.

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Post Wednesday, 26th June 2013, 07:02

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

mumra wrote:I just tested and I'm seeing the same thing. There seems to be a bug introduced by a recent update. Looking into it now.

Yes, I played yesterday and AFAIR SW was acting correctly.

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Post Wednesday, 26th June 2013, 07:23

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

blinkfrog wrote:Yes, I played yesterday and AFAIR SW was acting correctly.


The server is updating now with a bugfix, it should be fine in a couple of minutes.

Thanks for letting us know!

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Post Wednesday, 26th June 2013, 15:05

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

Yesterday I've bashed to death some new HeSk and LOSk, today I've won a LOSk - http://crawl.lantea.net/crawl/morgue/na ... 140833.txt
This last game is a bit faulty, has been made very easy by an early vamp exec axe and a couple of Cpa, but nevertheless, I'm posting some quick impression:

- Infusion is a great spell, the fact it stacks with weapon brand means I've casted everytime I needed a bit more damage (up to Zot!) and I was sure I didn't have to resort on mana to escape or other things. Maybe it's a bit too much to carry a spell from turn 1 to endgame, but other spells have this problem too (apportation for first).
- Song of slaying is hilarious, getting good slaying bonus from a lv.2 spell is too good - probably it would be better as lv.3 spell. In any case, it's too easy to increase bonus from very weak enemies - e.g giant ant in lair, or normal ogre on d:20 and later. Increasing the enemy's threat level needed to build bonus could be good - in this moment kiting foes in corridors to kill weak enemies first and deal with dangerous later is quite encouraged.
- Spectral Weapon didn't seem to work in my last game - for what I've seen yesterday it's quite mediocre at the beginning: unless you're lucky and you find a very strong weapon at the beginning, the animated weapons you evoke early on are very weak - they tend to deal very little damage and die very quickly.
Considering that 3 mp means 3 stronger hit with infusion, without the backslash of health of spectral weapon, the latter spell isn't really useful for quite a long time. Probably it would be very good when you animate a two handed weapon at high skills, but I couldn't try that.
-Song of Shielding: I found a cap of spirit shield before I could cast it reliably, so I never memorize the spell and I don't know really how is it - the main problem I can speculate about it is that spending 5mp to have old spirit shield after you have activated all other buffs leave you with very few mp as bonus hit point - again, just using infusion could be a better idea.



Overall, the book is good and let Sk to play like a hybrid class that use spell to increase their damaging and defensive abilities - it's quite tedious to cast 3/5 buff before every difficult fight, but that's a problem of buff spell in general in DCSS.
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Post Wednesday, 26th June 2013, 16:14

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

jejorda2 wrote:Tukima's [Step|Jig|Boogaloo|Bop|Shuffle|Fandango|Hula|Jive|Jerkin|Krumping|Mazur|Shimmy|Two-Step]

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This is a legit request to rename Phase Shift to Tukima's Two-Step.

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Post Wednesday, 26th June 2013, 21:08

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

My feedback after about 10 games, 5 getting past lair, 2 getting to vaults (and then dying due to immense stupidity on my part both times):
FLAWLESS VICTORY - it's awesome.

A few points though:
-Infusion is awesome, but it almost feels like too much of a straight buff. As in, there are practically no downsides to casting it for most of the game. Skalds *need* something powerful to carry them through their weak beginning, and I feel like this is it, but perhaps it needs a cap - as nago says, you just want to cast it pretty much all the time.

-Spectral weapon (I was playing sword and shield) never seemed useful or worth the Hp penalty. I felt that I was taking too big a hit for too little damage, even with a powerful enough weapon. I feel it could do with a boost in general.

- Spirit shield also felt like a bit of a waste of 5 mp, especially when I could use it on other things (skald is a hybrid class by its nature) or wanted to use my other buffs.

My verdict: Much better to start off with, infusion/cloak/regen make for a really good combo which make skalds a lot more viable and fun. Later game spells (spectral and sshield) didn't feel useful enough as you're playing as the archetypical hybrid class and will have already found more useful spells. I know the starting book isn't supposed to take you to Zot (or even close) but I really felt that these two could do with a boost/change to become more useful/viable.
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Post Wednesday, 26th June 2013, 22:07

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

nago wrote:- Infusion is a great spell, the fact it stacks with weapon brand means I've casted everytime I needed a bit more damage (up to Zot!) and I was sure I didn't have to resort on mana to escape or other things. Maybe it's a bit too much to carry a spell from turn 1 to endgame, but other spells have this problem too (apportation for first).

Well apportation is more of a utility spell, so can understandably still be useful lategame. Infusion might still be too good if it ends up a no-brainer to cast once you have a bit of mp. Later on, was infusion still using all your mp in big fights? Or did you still have enough left that escape spells were possible.

nago wrote:- Song of slaying is hilarious, getting good slaying bonus from a lv.2 spell is too good - probably it would be better as lv.3 spell. In any case, it's too easy to increase bonus from very weak enemies - e.g giant ant in lair, or normal ogre on d:20 and later. Increasing the enemy's threat level needed to build bonus could be good - in this moment kiting foes in corridors to kill weak enemies first and deal with dangerous later is quite encouraged.

Are normal ants not 'trivial' (SoS cap = 2) threats by mid-lair? Granted, there's packs of other things (all the Ys come to mind) in lair that provide the threat level to get high bonuses, but those are generally quite capable of killing you. I admittedly didn't get a non-wizmode skald to late D in my tests, but looking at a nonskald character I have there, I am noticing that there are probably too many things of 'easy' and 'tough' threat level which the character is easily strong enough to kill without problem. Were ogre/yaktaur packs effectively free +4-6 slaying?

nago wrote:- Spectral Weapon didn't seem to work in my last game - for what I've seen yesterday it's quite mediocre at the beginning: unless you're lucky and you find a very strong weapon at the beginning, the animated weapons you evoke early on are very weak - they tend to deal very little damage and die very quickly.
Considering that 3 mp means 3 stronger hit with infusion, without the backslash of health of spectral weapon, the latter spell isn't really useful for quite a long time. Probably it would be very good when you animate a two handed weapon at high skills, but I couldn't try that.

Yeah, I accidentally broke their ability to attack when I made a tweak to their AI. We reverted the broken commit so it should work now, and a non-broken version of that change is just waiting for the servers to update.

During our pre-merge testing, we possibly nerfed spectral weapon too hard, since conceptually it is a strong spell. It's damage is currently just the base damage of the weapon, which I've found is fine versus early enemies with low AC (possibly less so if you were using short blades on those HESk). I suspect that as enemies get more AC later, the damage needs to scale with skill; we just haven't decided how much. Their defenses are also likely in need of a buff.

nago wrote:-Song of Shielding: I found a cap of spirit shield before I could cast it reliably, so I never memorize the spell and I don't know really how is it - the main problem I can speculate about it is that spending 5mp to have old spirit shield after you have activated all other buffs leave you with very few mp as bonus hit point - again, just using infusion could be a better idea.

I think it really depends on having enough max mp to be able to use it effectively. I had a couple good FeSk, that effectively got at least +50% health even after other buffs including haste, since they have so much mp and so little hp. On those it was fine that my mp was being used for both bonus health and bonus damage, since if anything did enough damage to hit my health, it was time to start running.

nago wrote:Overall, the book is good and let Sk to play like a hybrid class that use spell to increase their damaging and defensive abilities - it's quite tedious to cast 3/5 buff before every difficult fight, but that's a problem of buff spell in general in DCSS.

Thanks nago and Bim for the feedback! I've never tried it, but perhaps you could use macros to simplify the buff routines (at least in terms of keystrokes)?

And after looking at Bim's post, it looks like we have more agreement on infusion being strong, while spectral weapon and song of shielding are weak. I'm pretty sure that the buffs I mentioned for spectral weapon will be the fix it needs (it's just a matter of finding the right numbers), but am less sure how to bring the others into line. I think song of shielding might be rather conditional on what your mp/hp look like. Infusion is supposed to work on top of a brand (unlike the brand spells of old skald), so as it is I'm not sure how else to cap it. It's maximum power is already only 50, and it's damage... Wait. If I'm reading this right, it's damage is only 2+pow/25 (using div_rand_round). Depending on power, it varies from 2 to 4 damage. Is that still all that impressive late game? Admittedly, it's practically free damage by that point (no action after the casting, and presumably the mp cost becomes negligible).

As for Song of Shielding's name, how about "Ballad of Barrier" (or since that doesn't explain two songs at once, possibly just "Barrier" or a derivative)

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Post Wednesday, 26th June 2013, 22:42

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

qoala wrote:During our pre-merge testing, we possibly nerfed spectral weapon too hard, since conceptually it is a strong spell. It's damage is currently just the base damage of the weapon, which I've found is fine versus early enemies with low AC (possibly less so if you were using short blades on those HESk). I suspect that as enemies get more AC later, the damage needs to scale with skill; we just haven't decided how much. Their defenses are also likely in need of a buff.


I certainly think the damage sharing is pretty harsh, considering that many spells offer even more powerful effects without such dangerous side-effects.

nago wrote:As for Song of Shielding's name, how about "Ballad of Barrier" (or since that doesn't explain two songs at once, possibly just "Barrier" or a derivative)


I would defer to evilmike's view on this and make it not a song. I find the idea of some of these spells being mutually exclusive is quite interesting; on the other hand it's also interesting when they combine together. The only problem is ontoclasm might be upset if the icon needs to change again and it's a very nice icon :( As for what to call it, I don't think this is quite right, but something like "Diversion" (diverts HP damage to MP).

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Post Thursday, 27th June 2013, 00:18

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

qoala wrote:Well apportation is more of a utility spell, so can understandably still be useful lategame. Infusion might still be too good if it ends up a no-brainer to cast once you have a bit of mp. Later on, was infusion still using all your mp in big fights? Or did you still have enough left that escape spells were possible.

Well, combining the cap of the spirit shield and infusion effect, I was systematically running out of mp during long fight. Anyway, in combats I took few damage I had mp left, so I can assume infusion doesn't drain all you mana when you have a larger pool

qoala wrote:Are normal ants not 'trivial' (SoS cap = 2) threats by mid-lair? Granted, there's packs of other things (all the Ys come to mind) in lair that provide the threat level to get high bonuses, but those are generally quite capable of killing you. I admittedly didn't get a non-wizmode skald to late D in my tests, but looking at a nonskald character I have there, I am noticing that there are probably too many things of 'easy' and 'tough' threat level which the character is easily strong enough to kill without problem. Were ogre/yaktaur packs effectively free +4-6 slaying?


Ant are trivial by Lair, but they still increase you song's bonus - heck, I believe they increase it in D after lair! And generally speaking, yes there are too many easy foes which gives bonus, without posing any real treats. Definitely the ogres are in this category (by D:20 they aren't a real threat for 95% of character, even if hasted by ogre magi); on the other hand I wouldn't consider yaktaurs pack free slaying, as they can be nasty opponents for longer time, and the captain can seldom deal insane damage even with very high defenses.
I think that all enemies in "grey" (trivial? I don't remember the exact description) shouldn't ever give the bonus.


nago wrote:I think it really depends on having enough max mp to be able to use it effectively. I had a couple good FeSk, that effectively got at least +50% health even after other buffs including haste, since they have so much mp and so little hp. On those it was fine that my mp was being used for both bonus health and bonus damage, since if anything did enough damage to hit my health, it was time to start running.


Never tried FeSk, but for other races (I tried HE and LO) song of shielding isn't very good, as for a lv.5 spell gives little benefits, costing too much mp and being quite hard to cast while wearing medium/heavy armour - as a melee caster doesn't train much spellcasting (so has little mp pool) had develop early on martial skills (so it has decent/good hp pool too thanks to fighting).

qoala wrote:Thanks nago and Bim for the feedback! I've never tried it, but perhaps you could use macros to simplify the buff routines (at least in terms of keystrokes)?


I don't like long macro, as an enemy can always appear and kill you meanwhile. Furthermore, I tend to cast buff after I've spotted an enemy, so that makes a long macro pretty much impossible to use. Someone needs to implement permabuff, it's the only solution :D

qoala wrote:And after looking at Bim's post, it looks like we have more agreement on infusion being strong, while spectral weapon and song of shielding are weak. I'm pretty sure that the buffs I mentioned for spectral weapon will be the fix it needs (it's just a matter of finding the right numbers), but am less sure how to bring the others into line. I think song of shielding might be rather conditional on what your mp/hp look like. Infusion is supposed to work on top of a brand (unlike the brand spells of old skald), so as it is I'm not sure how else to cap it. It's maximum power is already only 50, and it's damage... Wait. If I'm reading this right, it's damage is only 2+pow/25 (using div_rand_round). Depending on power, it varies from 2 to 4 damage. Is that still all that impressive late game? Admittedly, it's practically free damage by that point (no action after the casting, and presumably the mp cost becomes negligible).


Yes, infusion perhaps isn't *so* strong in late game, but why reject free damage without downsides?
For song of shielding maybe you could increase the damage blocked by mp, in relation of hp/mp, so for example 1mp absorbs 2 points of damage (the number are just an example).
Otherwise, considering I find spirit shield a quite dull effect, gives a different effect to make the spell more interesting - for example attacking enemies could suffer random malus (slowness, confusion, weaken, blink away, mirrored damage...)

edit: A think I forgot to comment: is there any reason Sk can't start with a long blade? It's quite awkward to start with short sword just to switch to the first long blades, especially if considering Sk to put to good use all the scarce early exp, as they need to train both weapons and magical skills.
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Post Thursday, 27th June 2013, 01:53

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

mumra wrote:I would defer to evilmike's view on this and make it not a song. I find the idea of some of these spells being mutually exclusive is quite interesting; on the other hand it's also interesting when they combine together. The only problem is ontoclasm might be upset if the icon needs to change again and it's a very nice icon :( As for what to call it, I don't think this is quite right, but something like "Diversion" (diverts HP damage to MP).


Diversion is kind of a bland name, I think... some more flavorful description of how it works might help. "Magical Blood/Flesh/Skin", flavored as phantasmal tissue taking the blow for you, something like that. Or <Wizard Name's> Ablative Armour".

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Post Thursday, 27th June 2013, 02:15

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

mumra wrote:I would defer to evilmike's view on this and make it not a song. I find the idea of some of these spells being mutually exclusive is quite interesting; on the other hand it's also interesting when they combine together. The only problem is ontoclasm might be upset if the icon needs to change again and it's a very nice icon :( As for what to call it, I don't think this is quite right, but something like "Diversion" (diverts HP damage to MP).

Some buffs being mutually exclusive is interesting, yes. I just don't want to see that for charms. As minmay said already, this is transmutation's thing.

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Post Thursday, 27th June 2013, 02:55

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

nicolae wrote:Or <Wizard Name's> Ablative Armour".


This is pretty good, but possibly not quite reaching the extremely high standard of Battlepants ;)

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Post Thursday, 27th June 2013, 05:33

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

Make Infusion consuming i. e. 10% (with ceil or randomized rounding) of your max MP per hit and you will not want to use it in late game.

Or it can cost i. e. 10% of it's spellpower per hit. You can even raise it's cap now. After all, it's damage/cost ratio will decrease with spellpower raising (because of +2 damage in formula).
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Post Thursday, 27th June 2013, 05:57

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

nicolae wrote:
mumra wrote:I would defer to evilmike's view on this and make it not a song. I find the idea of some of these spells being mutually exclusive is quite interesting; on the other hand it's also interesting when they combine together. The only problem is ontoclasm might be upset if the icon needs to change again and it's a very nice icon :( As for what to call it, I don't think this is quite right, but something like "Diversion" (diverts HP damage to MP).


Diversion is kind of a bland name, I think... some more flavorful description of how it works might help. "Magical Blood/Flesh/Skin", flavored as phantasmal tissue taking the blow for you, something like that. Or <Wizard Name's> Ablative Armour".


If we wanted to keep the musical flavor maybe something like <Wizard's> Hale Harmony? It even kind of gets around "singing" two things at once ;)

Edit: although this too suffers from not meeting the high bar set by Battlepants
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Post Thursday, 27th June 2013, 07:07

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

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Post Thursday, 27th June 2013, 07:42

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

There should be some sort of damage message when the extra damage done by 'infuse' is applied. The message should reflect both the character of the damage done and, in general terms, the degree e.x.:

A little spark of your power jumps from your <weapon>, zapping <creature>.
A spark of your power jumps from your <weapon>, zapping <creature>.
Some of your power jumps from your <weapon>, seriously injuring <creature>.
Your power explodes from your <weapon>, blasting <creature>!
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Post Thursday, 27th June 2013, 11:51

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

Even though infusion is weak, (nearly) free damage is (nearly) free damage, it needs something, but I think a bigger flat mp (either in percentage or just number) cost would be too severe - unsure what to suggest though.

Please, please, please let Skalds start with long blades, it's tedious having to swap early-mid for one and a clear disadvantage for races that specialise LB.
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Post Thursday, 27th June 2013, 12:22

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

I played a DsSk down to d:15 so far.

Infusion is everything I complained about before I tried it. Amusingly, it doesn't actually do what a skald level 1 spell is supposed to do (which is do something early on) since you have 2 mp at xl1 with most races, so you get, if you're lucky, one infused attack at xl1. Otherwise you miscast infusion once and get zero. At xl2, shroud is better than infusion (note that this changes later in the game; infusion stays good for much longer) and you often have to try twice to cast shroud. Infusion then becomes really good later in the game. As a player I don't mind too much, it's a noticeable damage increase and kind of fun in that way (though I'm using it in every single fight). From a design standpoint the spell is terrible.

Song of slaying is bad because in basically every situation where it does something (lots of enemies nearby) it is worse than not casting it, because it's not only loud but it's loud every turn. So now instead of luring away monsters in small groups, you drag the entire group after you at once. 5 slaying is not better than fighting half as many enemies. It is good for fighting water monsters though............

Haven't tried spectral weapon because my dssk got claws 1 + monstrous at xl2 so I switched to UC.

Haven't used spirit shield and I see no sitution in which I would want to. Possibly if it were newspirit and infusion were removed/changed.

Not sure if I actually like newsk better than oldsk.

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Post Thursday, 27th June 2013, 13:08

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

crate wrote: Amusingly, it doesn't actually do what a skald level 1 spell is supposed to do (which is do something early on) since you have 2 mp at xl1 with most races, so you get, if you're lucky, one infused attack at xl1. Otherwise you miscast infusion once and get zero. At xl2, shroud is better than infusion (note that this changes later in the game; infusion stays good for much longer) and you often have to try twice to cast shroud. Infusion then becomes really good later in the game.


I noticed that too. At XL1, for most species you basically get one extra hard hit. But that is not a bad thing if your character spawns a few steps away from a hobgoblin, which one of my HuSk did. By XL2 though, I think Infusion is better. I thought the maxim is offense > defense? And FWIW, FeSk start with 3 MP so it's more useful to them.

Infusion plays almost like a poor man's Heroism. I basically cast it for every nontrivial fight. And when I'm playing FeSk, that means practically every fight! I'm not sure I agree that Infusion needs a nerf. Every hit draining MP is already a substantial cost. Granted, I didn't get above XL12 with my characters, so maybe it just doesn't scale well.

I agree that Song of Slaying is kind of awkward. There are mobs that are fairly trivial and there are mobs that will destroy you. Somewhere in between, are mobs that you can overwhelm with Song of Slaying - but I think it is a fine line and a slight miscalculation can kill you. It's a bit like axe cleave IMO - interesting mechanic but you don't want to put yourself in position to use it often I think. I didn't use it much.

Spirit Shield works pretty well for FeSk. Not sure who else would use it.

Didn't get to try Spectral Weapon because I mostly played FeSk.

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Post Thursday, 27th June 2013, 13:20

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

shroud is +10 hp, which is about 3 attacks on average at xl2; infusion would have to kill monsters 3 turns faster to actually beat shroud
the reason you train offensive skills before defensive ones is they scale better per level, that has nothing to do with whether infusion or shroud is a better use of mp early on

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Post Thursday, 27th June 2013, 13:31

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

Almost no one seems to like Spirit Shield (which makes sense to me), so let me propose an alternative.

Spirit Shield creates a magical HP buffer equal to its casting cost with a multiplier based on spell power. So at lowest power, Spirit Shield protects you from 5 hp of harm. As the spellpower increases, that amount is multiplied, up to a maximum of (arbitrarily) 3x at 200 power. Of course, no one gets charms near 200 power, so in practice the max will be way lower than that.

Edit: obviously, a better multiplier-to-power scale could be chosen if that one is bad.

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Post Thursday, 27th June 2013, 15:31

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

I've played a few games trying to use song of slaying more and I have to say the loudness is a pretty big tradeoff. This would be fine/great for melee heavy chars, but as skalds are sort of in between (and rely on dragging monsters away in small groups) it quickly became a death sentence for anything other than rats/orc mobs. As it creates noise every turn (so you can't cast it upstairs and go down, which makes sense) it just becomes unbearable for anything other than completely secluded mobs.

I would suggest an alternative, that it instead silences the player whilst singing it (maybe it could have a slightly raised noise level, but nothing too high). You would obviously be able to stop singing it and then use something else, but this wastes a turn. It could also become a level 4 spell I suppose.
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Post Thursday, 27th June 2013, 16:53

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

Played a quick 3 rune, found that slaying song made corridor fighting crazy more good than before and is easy to cast (throw rock at dude, go behind corner, sing, jump back in corridor, trounce pack, the poor last few guys in those huge zot draconian packs had unhappy times), infusion didnt help much on d1 but was awesome for d2+ (i still used it in zot, its so easy to cast), shield spell was not worth training to cast in armor, and spectral weapon didnt seem worth it with fast weapon ( i played 1h+shield game, didnt get a demon weapon until pretty late, and had dumped the spell before getting it so dont know if it good with demon weapon).

Had fun, but the reason i didnt use infusion in every single fight after d2 is because i dont like buffing. New skald didnt make d1 easier (i got 1 or 2 infused hits per fight) but i used infusion and slaying the whole game, my end list of spells was infusion, slaying, shroud, regen, swiftness, blink, repel, strategy was buff, bring bads in corridor, cut them or if problem swift/blink away. This was one of the easier melee games i've ever played. I was human+makleb if it changes anything.

edit: maybe spectral weapon could benefit from player slaying from song and items so it would be better with fast weapons? although, now that i think of it since most of my fights happened in corridors im thinking if i had taken a weapon with reaching it could have been really good to attack over me. Maybe skald should start with spear and be renamed to grand master of corridor fights, it all comes together so well with that collection of level 1-3 spells i had.

edit2: if i used an axe, would infusion cost 1 mp for every dude i cleave? and would spectral weapon cleave too?

edit3: what does the song of slaying tile picture represent?

edit4: whats the noise value of song of slaying? it seemed to be greater than LOS but lower than t-t, i caught on a bit late but it seems like it could be really excellent to pull small packs of enemies from just offscreen
Last edited by Baldu on Thursday, 27th June 2013, 23:01, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Thursday, 27th June 2013, 23:01

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

infusion makes for an awkward level one spell since it has a limited duration. `song` spells could be given a special type of buff modifier that makes them stay up as longas the player wants, but restricts the player to one song at a time. this could prevent some buff stacking with other spells (imagine song of haste, song of deflection..instead of the current versions). or scrap the mana draining aspect and keep it low duration so it works with my skald god :twisted: lol
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Post Thursday, 27th June 2013, 23:30

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

mumra wrote:This does raise a number of questions however such as whether these spells should be mutually exclusive. Currently Song of Slaying and Song of Shielding will stack which seems odd (but Song of Shielding actually only just got renamed from Spirit Shield so this wasn't considered yet).


evilmike wrote:Some buffs being mutually exclusive is interesting, yes. I just don't want to see that for charms. As minmay said already, this is transmutation's thing.


twelwe wrote:infusion makes for an awkward level one spell since it has a limited duration. `song` spells could be given a special type of buff modifier that makes them stay up as longas the player wants, but restricts the player to one song at a time. this could prevent some buff stacking with other spells (imagine song of haste, song of deflection..instead of the current versions). or scrap the mana draining aspect and keep it low duration so it works with my skald god :twisted: lol

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Post Friday, 28th June 2013, 16:22

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

I'm trying a HOSk right now, who happened to choose Beogh. While playing, some thoughts occurred to me.

Would it be desirable for the new Charms spells to be castable on allies, the way Haste is? I realize Haste is unique in this regard, and in any case, skalds who acquire permanent allies are a minority anyway. Still, it felt pretty stupid casting buffs on myself while my allies did the killing.

Another thought was whether Song of Slaying should affect allies. I know that it shouldn't, because it would be seriously overpowered, but in terms of flavor it's what I'd expect from something called Song of Slaying :mrgreen:

Ok, these weren't serious suggestions, just observations from playing a skald with allies. I found myself wishing that skald spells would act more like those of D&D bard. But I realize that is not the intent of the skald class. Maybe this sort of thing should be added to Beogh abilities?

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Post Friday, 28th June 2013, 16:27

Re: Discussion: Improving Skalds

Spells that involve consumption of MP are incompatible with monsters since they have no MP.
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